ACTUAL SCIENTIST: "Climate Change is a Scam!"

FAST

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The point is to institute a tax on goods proportional to the carbon emitted in their production. That will cut demand for goods produced using high pollution processes by making them expensive and advantage goods produced with low emissions processes by making them cheap..
If you believe China would actually do that,...are you interested in a bridge I have for sale,...???

.
When just California did this for cars it resulted in a shift towards more efficient vehicles in every country..
Wrong,...there was no "shift" to more efficient cars,...the manufactures were forced to produce cars that produced less pollution,...and actual fact,...the result of that,...was LESS efficient cars.
And had ZERO effect on other countries,...the rest of the world was already producing smaller cars with much less powerful engines.
Plus, CAFE was nation wide.

Now imagine all the G7 economies agreed to do this. The Chinese factories would retool to meet the demands of their customers.
Sure your not interested in a bridge,...???
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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You can not state that with 100% certainty...
For the first part, absolutely he can say it with 100% certainty. Unless you are like fast and believe there is some conspiracy of scientists to fake the evidence, the evidence shows pretty clearly that human produced CO2 plays a major role. The scientific community has never been afraid to rock the boat if the evidence backed it up. Galileo, Newton, Einstein were all mavericks and when the scientific community saw their conclusions better explained the evidence it became accepted. If someone ever has a better theory to explain climate change then it will pass the scientific test and become accepted. The fact that there isn't speaks volumes.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
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For the first part, absolutely he can say it with 100% certainty.
No you can not.
Conclusions based on scientific hypothesis and experimentation should be accompanied by confidence levels i.e., 95%, 99.99% etc.
The confidence level is (if I recall correctly) determined by the presence of a potential error or limitation in measurement
The Earth has had changing climate for 5 Billion years (sometimes violently and abruptly, sometimes slow and hardly noticeable) and man has been recording climate data for maybe 400-800 years?
To state 100% certainty, you imply absolutely zero probability the earth maybe moving through is natural warming / cooling cycle.
800 years vs. five Billion years of change ?
Zero probability? I do not think so
It maybe a very small probability but it is not zero

Unless you are like fast and believe there is some conspiracy of scientists to fake the evidence,
no conspiracy, scientists are not the scheming type
One of then would have wet his pants by now and spilled the alleged conspiracy.

the evidence shows pretty clearly that human produced CO2 plays a major role.
How much CO2 did some of the thousand, (millions ??) of historical volcanos produce?
You do not know, do you?

The scientific community has never been afraid to rock the boat if the evidence backed it up.
Too bad some forsake science in order to become activistists without compromise
Some call for the immediate 100% elimination of fossil fuel use.
An unachievable demand does not inspire confidence
Similarly when someone states a conclusion with 100% certainty, I am sceptical

If someone ever has a better theory to explain climate change then it will pass the scientific test and become accepted. The fact that there isn't speaks volumes
That is flawed logic.
you say the earth is flat and until someone can prove it is round , it therefore must be flat?

Have you consider the possibility the earths orbit around the sun is not so precise and repeatable and that variations in this obit can have an impact on our climate?
How does one quantify that impact?
By ignoring it and concluding with 100% certainty it is all down to man?

Note: The distance from the earth to the sun in July is approx. 3 million miles further away than in January

Again, ignoring the probability we maybe destroying our planet does justify action as the risk is everything for the species
 

fuji

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If you believe China would actually do that,...are you interested in a bridge I have for sale,...???
We would do it. We would impose the carbon tax. Chinese businesses would be required to provide the data on emissions as part of the authorization to import goods.

And they would, because they've gotten very good at complying to whatever manufacturing process their customers ask for. They would comply and they would do it cheaply and with high quality. No company objects provided the playing field is level, which it would be.
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Wrong,...there was no "shift" to more efficient cars,...the manufactures were forced to produce cars that produced less pollution,...and actual fact,...the result of that,...was LESS efficient cars.

And had ZERO effect on other countries,...the rest of the world was already producing smaller cars with much less powerful engines.
Wrong. Fuel efficiency has improved dramatically as a result of California's efficiency requirements and the resulting efficiencies have been made available in almost every country.
 

fuji

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Five years of extreme drought wasn't bad enough??

Holy fuck.

The EXTREME drought is over but the areas around LA continues to be between "abnormally dry" to "moderate drought" so the Governor was absolutely right that it would never fully end. His policy of retaining water conservation policies on s permanent basis look exceptionally far sighted and prudent today.

Your going to lose this one just as embarrassingly as you lost the global temperature interest claim where you predicted coming and the mean global temperature just kept on going consistently up over every thirty year average.
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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No you can not.
Conclusions based on scientific hypothesis and experimentation should be accompanied by confidence levels i.e., 95%, 99.99% etc....
Fine. Based on currently available evidence, 99.9%

Ask whatever questions you want but the scientific community has looked at them and taken them into account. They still see human sourced CO2 a a major factor in current climactic changes. The rest of you post is no different from 9/11 conspiracy theorists trying to create doubt with common people despite the well educated experts already having the vast majority of answers.
 

PornAddict

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Aug 30, 2009
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And FAST goes down in flames babbling nonsense and hurling insults as usual.

Point made: No credible scientist disagrees with human caused global warming.

/Thread
.Here an sample what his fellow climate scientist think of the Mann Fraudent Hockey stick.

Mann of the past ONE TREE-RING TO RULE THEM ALL . It is difficult to avoid the impression that the IPCC uncritically accepted scientific work that “repealed” the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age because these two well-known features of the climate record placed Global Warming Theory in doubt, at least for the global public.

DR JEFFREY E FOSS, PHD BEYOND ENVIRONMENTALISM: A PHILOSOPHY OF NATURE (2009) THE HOCKEY stick is what’s known as a “proxy reconstruction”.

There’s only two things wrong with it the proxies and the reconstruction. Other than that, you can take it to the bank. First, the proxies: The hockey stick is generally believed to show global (actually Northern Hemisphere) temperatures for the last millennium. But Mann does not, in fact, have any temperature readings for, say, the year 1143. That’s because your average medieval peasant village did not have a weather station, and neither Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit nor Anders Celsius had yet been born.

So Mann has to divine his 12th century thermometer readings from “proxy data”. What is a proxy? Well, it’s something like an ocean coral or an ice core or some lake sediment from which one can “reconstruct” the temperature history. In Mann’s case, it was mostly tree rings. Much of the world isn’t terribly forested, and most of the parts that are can’t tell you the temperature for 1143. For a shot at that, you need a thousand-year-old tree, and there are only a few of those around, here and there in Siberia, in parts of Canada, in California. That was his first mistake:

His proxy reconstruction uses the wrong proxy. To a kid, a tree ring is simple: Jack counts in and finds out whether his tree is older than Jill’s. But, if you’re trying to figure out the temperature, it’s more fraught. “The original ‘hockey stick’ graph figured strongly in the IPCC 2000,” Professor Anthony Trewavas told the British House of Commons. “But it is an artifice… The size of the tree ring is determined by everything that affects all aspects of plant development. These are: soil nutrients and structure; light variations; carbon dioxide; competition from other trees; disease; predators; age; rainfall; previous developmental activity as well as temperature. Temperature, for which it supposedly acts as a proxy, is just one contributor amongst many and of course reflects local conditions only. Mann’s ‘hockey stick’ failed,” he continued, because “tree rings on their own are not a reliable proxy.” Oddly enough, boreholes and other proxies disagree with tree-rings when it comes to the temperature record. Mann had a few alternative proxies in his mix, but just a soupçon , so he could claim to have included them if anybody asked. And then he further refined the process:

Having chosen the wrong proxy trees he took the additional precaution of using the wrong kind of tree. Those ones in the American west, for example, are bristlecone pines. They’re certainly old: There’s a bristlecone pine in California’s White Mountains that has been precisely dated 5,064 years old in 2015 and is believed to be the oldest tree on earth. Unfortunately, the guys who know bristlecones including the very scientists who collected the data Mann used say they’re unreliable as thermometers. Those California bristlecones are sensitive to higher atmospheric CO2 concentration, regardless of whether the temperature’s going up or down. Mann knew this. As Hans Erren observed, Mann’s North American trees did not match the North American temperature record. Yet he decided that, even if they couldn’t reliably tell you the temperature for the bit of sod they were planted in, they could reliably tell you the temperature for the entire Northern Hemisphere. Even the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences bristled at the cones:

For the earliest part of the 1999 analysis, Mr Mann’s group relied heavily on bristlecone pines from western North America. The original study noted that there were some difficulties in using such trees because of peculiarities in their recent growth, but Mr Mann and his group attempted to quantify those problems and to work around them.

The National Research Council suggested that researchers avoid using trees that are the most difficult to interpret . The NRC can “suggest” all they want: for years, Mann and his Hockey Team continued to rely on bristlecones as failsafe treemometers. Yet, even when you decide to apply the wrong example of the wrong proxy to the wrong part of the planet, repealing the Medieval Warm Period is harder than you think. So Mann additionally decided to apply the wrong weighting to his wrong example of the wrong proxy to the wrong part of the planet by giving tree-ring data that produced a hockey-stick curve over 300 times the value of tree-ring data that didn’t. Wrong proxy, wrong tree, wrong location…

But what else do we need? Ah, yes, the wrong method. Put aside the bristlecones in MBH98 and Mann’s hockey-stick curve for the entire Northern Hemisphere up to 1421 comes from just one tree, and from thereafter to 1447 from just two trees both from Québec’s Gaspé Peninsula . (And from 1400 to 1403 from zero trees: he just extrapolated the 1404 reading.) By contrast, reputable dendrochronologists won’t use data sets with fewer than five trees on the grounds that one or two (never mind zero trees) might not be that representative. But Mann did and then he made them even more mega-representative by double-counting that pair of Gaspé trees in two separate data sets.

And suddenly you can’t see the Little Ice Age or the Medieval Warm Period for the trees or tree. Wrong proxy, wrong tree, wrong location, wrong method = right answer: LIA( liitle ice age) equal to MIA( Missing in Action) . MWP( Medieval Warm Period) becomes RIP ( Retired in Peace).
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
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Fine. Based on currently available evidence, 99.9%

Ask whatever questions you want but the scientific community has looked at them and taken them into account. They still see human sourced CO2 a a major factor in current climactic changes. The rest of you post is no different from 9/11 conspiracy theorists trying to create doubt with common people despite the well educated experts already having the vast majority of answers.
Did you not read the last sentence in my post ?
Again, ignoring the probability we maybe destroying our planet does justify action as the risk is everything for the species
How in the world can you interrupt that as
no different from 9/11 conspiracy theorists trying to create doubt with common people
?????????
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,011
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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
.Here an sample what his fellow climate scientist think of the Mann Fraudent Hockey stick.

Mann of the past ONE TREE-RING TO RULE THEM ALL . It is difficult to avoid the impression that the IPCC uncritically accepted scientific work that “repealed” the Medieval Warm Period and the Little Ice Age because these two well-known features of the climate record placed Global Warming Theory in doubt, at least for the global public.

DR JEFFREY E FOSS, PHD BEYOND ENVIRONMENTALISM: A PHILOSOPHY OF NATURE (2009) THE HOCKEY stick is what’s known as a “proxy reconstruction”.

There’s only two things wrong with it the proxies and the reconstruction. Other than that, you can take it to the bank. First, the proxies: The hockey stick is generally believed to show global (actually Northern Hemisphere) temperatures for the last millennium. But Mann does not, in fact, have any temperature readings for, say, the year 1143. That’s because your average medieval peasant village did not have a weather station, and neither Daniel Gabriel Fahrenheit nor Anders Celsius had yet been born.

So Mann has to divine his 12th century thermometer readings from “proxy data”. What is a proxy? Well, it’s something like an ocean coral or an ice core or some lake sediment from which one can “reconstruct” the temperature history. In Mann’s case, it was mostly tree rings. Much of the world isn’t terribly forested, and most of the parts that are can’t tell you the temperature for 1143. For a shot at that, you need a thousand-year-old tree, and there are only a few of those around, here and there in Siberia, in parts of Canada, in California. That was his first mistake:

His proxy reconstruction uses the wrong proxy. To a kid, a tree ring is simple: Jack counts in and finds out whether his tree is older than Jill’s. But, if you’re trying to figure out the temperature, it’s more fraught. “The original ‘hockey stick’ graph figured strongly in the IPCC 2000,” Professor Anthony Trewavas told the British House of Commons. “But it is an artifice… The size of the tree ring is determined by everything that affects all aspects of plant development. These are: soil nutrients and structure; light variations; carbon dioxide; competition from other trees; disease; predators; age; rainfall; previous developmental activity as well as temperature. Temperature, for which it supposedly acts as a proxy, is just one contributor amongst many and of course reflects local conditions only. Mann’s ‘hockey stick’ failed,” he continued, because “tree rings on their own are not a reliable proxy.” Oddly enough, boreholes and other proxies disagree with tree-rings when it comes to the temperature record. Mann had a few alternative proxies in his mix, but just a soupçon , so he could claim to have included them if anybody asked. And then he further refined the process:

Having chosen the wrong proxy trees he took the additional precaution of using the wrong kind of tree. Those ones in the American west, for example, are bristlecone pines. They’re certainly old: There’s a bristlecone pine in California’s White Mountains that has been precisely dated 5,064 years old in 2015 and is believed to be the oldest tree on earth. Unfortunately, the guys who know bristlecones including the very scientists who collected the data Mann used say they’re unreliable as thermometers. Those California bristlecones are sensitive to higher atmospheric CO2 concentration, regardless of whether the temperature’s going up or down. Mann knew this. As Hans Erren observed, Mann’s North American trees did not match the North American temperature record. Yet he decided that, even if they couldn’t reliably tell you the temperature for the bit of sod they were planted in, they could reliably tell you the temperature for the entire Northern Hemisphere. Even the National Research Council of the National Academy of Sciences bristled at the cones:

For the earliest part of the 1999 analysis, Mr Mann’s group relied heavily on bristlecone pines from western North America. The original study noted that there were some difficulties in using such trees because of peculiarities in their recent growth, but Mr Mann and his group attempted to quantify those problems and to work around them.

The National Research Council suggested that researchers avoid using trees that are the most difficult to interpret . The NRC can “suggest” all they want: for years, Mann and his Hockey Team continued to rely on bristlecones as failsafe treemometers. Yet, even when you decide to apply the wrong example of the wrong proxy to the wrong part of the planet, repealing the Medieval Warm Period is harder than you think. So Mann additionally decided to apply the wrong weighting to his wrong example of the wrong proxy to the wrong part of the planet by giving tree-ring data that produced a hockey-stick curve over 300 times the value of tree-ring data that didn’t. Wrong proxy, wrong tree, wrong location…

But what else do we need? Ah, yes, the wrong method. Put aside the bristlecones in MBH98 and Mann’s hockey-stick curve for the entire Northern Hemisphere up to 1421 comes from just one tree, and from thereafter to 1447 from just two trees both from Québec’s Gaspé Peninsula . (And from 1400 to 1403 from zero trees: he just extrapolated the 1404 reading.) By contrast, reputable dendrochronologists won’t use data sets with fewer than five trees on the grounds that one or two (never mind zero trees) might not be that representative. But Mann did and then he made them even more mega-representative by double-counting that pair of Gaspé trees in two separate data sets.

And suddenly you can’t see the Little Ice Age or the Medieval Warm Period for the trees or tree. Wrong proxy, wrong tree, wrong location, wrong method = right answer: LIA( liitle ice age) equal to MIA( Missing in Action) . MWP( Medieval Warm Period) becomes RIP ( Retired in Peace).
Bunk. Find something from a credible journal and stop wasting everyone's time with these low quality kooky core and pastes.
 

PornAddict

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Bunk. Find something from a credible journal and stop wasting everyone's time with these low quality kooky core and pastes.
CAnnot handle the truth! I give a quote from a credible scientist..typically snowflake respond by freaking out.

Mann hockey is junk science!
 

fuji

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CAnnot handle the truth! I give a quote from a credible scientist..typically snowflake respond by freaking out.

Mann hockey is junk science!
You don't know what a credible scientist is. If that nonsense were credible you'd have been able to find it in a credible journal.

As it is when I search Google for your quote to see where it came from THIS THREAD is the top search result.

Not exactly awe inspiring...
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
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CAnnot handle the truth! I give a quote from a credible scientist..typically snowflake respond by freaking out.

Mann hockey is junk science!
Looks like fuji feels that Mann's "science" is credible,...dose say a lot about what he posts as credible science,...doesn't it.

And also doesn't say much about the remaining portion of his 100% of "scientists",...does it,...???
 

fuji

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Looks like fuji feels that Mann's "science" is credible,...dose say a lot about what he posts as credible science,...doesn't it.

And also doesn't say much about the remaining portion of his 100% of "scientists",...does it,...???
What I'm clearly saying, if English weren't a challenge for you, is that 100% of scientists who are credible enough to be published in the top journals support global warming.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
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What I'm clearly saying, if English weren't a challenge for you, is that 100% of scientists who are credible enough to be published in the top journals support global warming.
So you are saying that Mann was/is NOT credible,...???

And all of the publications that published him,...are/were not credible,...???
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
16,796
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So you are saying that Mann was/is NOT credible,...???

And all of the publications that published him,...are/were not credible,...???
Fuji claims
100% of scientists who are credible enough to be published in the top journals support global warming
if this be true he should be able to list all of the top journals and the names of all of the scientists who have publish climate change papers in those journals over the last several years.

After-all he is claiming 100% which is by definition absolute

His claim is pretty much a "Trump like" claim i.e. say what you want and do not let the truth or facts get in the way of his message
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
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See post 234. Resort to a dictionary at necessary.
That's a fuji reply,...respond like an adult,...that's assuming you have the guts.

Once again,...

"So you are saying that Mann was/is NOT credible,...???

And all of the publications that published him,...are/were not credible,...???"

I'll make it real easy for ya,...

A,...Your reply could be yes,...all of the publications that published Mann were credible,...

OR

B,...Your reply could be no,...all of the publications that published Mann were not credible,...

Pick one,...A or B

Come on fuji,...you can do it,...
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
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Five years of extreme drought wasn't bad enough??

Holy fuck.

The EXTREME drought is over but the areas around LA continues to be between "abnormally dry" to "moderate drought" so the Governor was absolutely right that it would never fully end. His policy of retaining water conservation policies on s permanent basis look exceptionally far sighted and prudent today.

Your going to lose this one just as embarrassingly as you lost the global temperature interest claim where you predicted coming and the mean global temperature just kept on going consistently up over every thirty year average.
In fact, the "unending" drought has ended.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-brown-drought-20170407-story.html

As for my claim that annual temperature anomalies would continue to fall woefully short of the IPCC's predictions, I not only said it, I bet on it. And despite all the bullshit posted by your friend, Franky, the reality is I was right (even in a super El Nino year) and won the bet.

There are serious problems with the research behind the numbers you're citing, which wasn't archived and can't be replicated (what a surprise!): http://www.nationalreview.com/artic...scientist-exposes-shoddy-climate-science-noaa

Even your buddies at Nature have acknowledged that the Earth's temperature hasn't increased as predicted.

https://www.nature.com/articles/ncl...LtBN-t9BE3fu&tracking_referrer=www.nature.com

“There is this mismatch between what the climate models are producing and what the observations are showing,” says lead author John Fyfe, a climate modeller at the Canadian Centre for Climate Modelling and Analysis in Victoria, British Columbia. “We can’t ignore it.”
http://www.nature.com/news/global-warming-hiatus-debate-flares-up-again-1.19414
 
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