First, this hasn't even faced a judge because as it says in the article (just below the headline) this has never been prosecuted before. Second, even on the off chance your hypothetical came true it would be appealed and reversed in record time here because our laws do not allow for this kind of abomination (hell DNR orders aren't even that easy here if I'm correct, let alone a killing against the victims will.)oagre said:
I agree that the article indicates that this was a "tribal tradition" and further agree that some posters here are very quick to show an anti-Islam bias, although an equal number seem ready to defend any atrocity commited by a Muslim.glaeken said:Why is this a religious discussion? If you read the article it clearly states this was a tribal "tradition". There was no mention of Islam.
However, in this case, I don't think you can differentiate between a tribal tradition and Islamic fundamentalism. Here is an excerpt from an article on Baluchistan which appeared in Time magazine in 1979:
Life among the Baluch is in many ways the same as it was in the days of the British raj, although camels are now less prevalent than the gaily painted trucks and triwheeled scooters that chug asthmatically around the streets of the province's capital, Quetta (pop. 250,000). Purdah (seclusion of women) and arranged marriage are accepted practices in this strict Islamic society
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,919999-2,00.html
Your analogy is only appropriate if:oagre said:Things to note:
The news media jumps on atypical events from out of the way places and generalizes about "Mulsim behaviour". That's like a Pakistani newspaper hypothetically finding a case out in Northern Quebec or Ontario where a judge and jury let a wife-killer go because she was cheating on him and saying it represents "Christian traditions".
a) the case had not been taken to trial (such as in this case) but was simply not investigated or prosecutedl
b) A federal politician stood up in parliament to defend the act on the basis of "tradition"; and
c) Several other policitions agreed it was a matter best left to local authorities
Yes, I just re-read the article and it clearly states that "a handful (of parliamentarians) said it was an internal matter of deeply conservative province"
The Time article that you quoted is almost 30 years old and is a bit inaccurate. Purdah is practiced in many Islamic and Hindu countries to varying degrees but depending on the form of the separation of the sexes does not necessarily conform to Islam. This differs from Hijab which is a part of Islam and is more about modesty than separation of the sexes. In fact, Purdah is normally a cultural practice and not an Islamic practice. And just because a practice is accepted in a strict Islamic society does not mean that the practice itself is consistent with Islam. For example, while strict Mennonite (Christian Anabaptist) societies resist modern conveniences that does not mean that that choice has anything to do with Christianity.hoser1970 said:I agree that the article indicates that this was a "tribal tradition" and further agree that some posters here are very quick to show an anti-Islam bias, although an equal number seem ready to defend any atrocity commited by a Muslim.
However, in this case, I don't think you can differentiate between a tribal tradition and Islamic fundamentalism. Here is an excerpt from an article on Baluchistan which appeared in Time magazine in 1979:
Life among the Baluch is in many ways the same as it was in the days of the British raj, although camels are now less prevalent than the gaily painted trucks and triwheeled scooters that chug asthmatically around the streets of the province's capital, Quetta (pop. 250,000). Purdah (seclusion of women) and arranged marriage are accepted practices in this strict Islamic society
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,919999-2,00.html
And to keep the Muslim haters at bay, even though arranged marriages are a part of Islam, included in that is the requirement of consent from the two people involved. In Islam the prospective wife or husband can say no to an arranged marriage which the 1979 Time article fails to mention.
Having said that, I would agree that in this case you can't necessarily separate tribal tradition and Islamic fundamentalism but I would just like to point out (to the Muslim haters here) that Islamic fundamentalists are as representative of the vast majority of Muslims as Christian fundamentalists are representative of the vast majority of Christians. When the word "fundamentalist" is added to any group it's never a good thing.
a) often these cases are investigated and prosecuted under different "tribal" methods as opposed to within national jurisprudence.
b) any federal "politician" making any positive statement about heinous acts is either misquoted, fabricated words to otherwise indict him, is mollifying his power base which may be acutely personal in "tribal" cultures.
c) in "tribal" cultures most family cases are better left to local authorities. Contrary to Western media hyperbole, local authorities often can investigate and prosecute in very short time at acceptable cost vs. years within national court systems rife with corruption.
b) any federal "politician" making any positive statement about heinous acts is either misquoted, fabricated words to otherwise indict him, is mollifying his power base which may be acutely personal in "tribal" cultures.
c) in "tribal" cultures most family cases are better left to local authorities. Contrary to Western media hyperbole, local authorities often can investigate and prosecute in very short time at acceptable cost vs. years within national court systems rife with corruption.
Total BS. Many tribal jirga's are an excuse for small time leaders to be petty criminals. Worse their machismo and uneducated attitudes often lead to huge injustices for women.antaeus said:a) often these cases are investigated and prosecuted under different "tribal" methods as opposed to within national jurisprudence.
b) any federal "politician" making any positive statement about heinous acts is either misquoted, fabricated words to otherwise indict him, is mollifying his power base which may be acutely personal in "tribal" cultures.
c) in "tribal" cultures most family cases are better left to local authorities. Contrary to Western media hyperbole, local authorities often can investigate and prosecute in very short time at acceptable cost vs. years within national court systems rife with corruption.
I second that.glaeken said:Why is this a religious discussion? If you read the article it clearly states this was a tribal "tradition". There was no mention of Islam.
Rather than attacking Muslims we we should be condemning archaic, misogynistic practices and the closed minded, status quo governments that allow it to continue.
Music_Box said:And here in Christian countries we have had like 1,000,000 husbands killing their wives for trying to leave/divorce them, so what's your point?
Someone kills their wife here hopefully they get arrested and punished. There it appears to be accepted/sanctioned. If you can't see the difference/point you are one pathetic little dude.
These women were buried alive all for the crime of not wanting to be forced into marriage. Yet there are some people that don’t seem to have a problem with that.
I can’t believe that some people could have such a corrupted value system that they aren’t outraged by such behavior. Yet this is common behavior in the Islamic world. The news is full of such stories where Muslims kill their own children, their own wives, sisters and daughters just to retain their “honour.”
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/08/17/55012.html
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24115111-23109,00.html
Appologists still try to take every case of honour killings and try to make it seem like an isolated case that doesn’t represent the “true Islamic values” when all the evidence seems to point to the contrary.
I can’t believe that some people could have such a corrupted value system that they aren’t outraged by such behavior. Yet this is common behavior in the Islamic world. The news is full of such stories where Muslims kill their own children, their own wives, sisters and daughters just to retain their “honour.”
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/08/17/55012.html
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24115111-23109,00.html
Appologists still try to take every case of honour killings and try to make it seem like an isolated case that doesn’t represent the “true Islamic values” when all the evidence seems to point to the contrary.
S
superman
Cinema Face said:These women were buried alive all for the crime of not wanting to be forced into marriage. Yet there are some people that don’t seem to have a problem with that.
I can’t believe that some people could have such a corrupted value system that they aren’t outraged by such behavior. Yet this is common behavior in the Islamic world. The news is full of such stories where Muslims kill their own children, their own wives, sisters and daughters just to retain their “honour.”
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2008/08/17/55012.html
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24115111-23109,00.html
Appologists still try to take every case of honour killings and try to make it seem like an isolated case that doesn’t represent the “true Islamic values” when all the evidence seems to point to the contrary.
some of the most educated and respected figures in pakistan thought this was ok and are defending the people that buried them
After reading these posts made by everyone on this board. it just proves to me how ignorent people in canada are. Islam doesnt preach any of these things and the people who did this were barbaric illiterate people and they are going to be severely punished by law in pakistan.
As for Pakistan,
Pakistan if you all should know is nothing the way the media potrays it. I have a couple of Paki friends and i visited them in Pakistan. The life style there is somthing out of the movies. At one part they have the conservatives which every soceity has and on the other ultra modern people.
Although alcohol and night clubs are banned it all happens secretly in elite clubs and other various places. If people are actually interested i havea bunch of pictures from the night life there.
Anyways i just want you all to know dont beleive the media. Pakistan is not as conservitive as it is potrayed.
And guys Before passing any judgement on religion know the facts first please.
thanks
As for Pakistan,
Pakistan if you all should know is nothing the way the media potrays it. I have a couple of Paki friends and i visited them in Pakistan. The life style there is somthing out of the movies. At one part they have the conservatives which every soceity has and on the other ultra modern people.
Although alcohol and night clubs are banned it all happens secretly in elite clubs and other various places. If people are actually interested i havea bunch of pictures from the night life there.
Anyways i just want you all to know dont beleive the media. Pakistan is not as conservitive as it is potrayed.
And guys Before passing any judgement on religion know the facts first please.
thanks
kingcobra20 said:After reading these posts made by everyone on this board. it just proves to me how ignorent people in canada are. Islam doesnt preach any of these things and the people who did this were barbaric illiterate people and they are going to be severely punished by law in pakistan.
As for Pakistan,
Pakistan if you all should know is nothing the way the media potrays it. I have a couple of Paki friends and i visited them in Pakistan. The life style there is somthing out of the movies. At one part they have the conservatives which every soceity has and on the other ultra modern people.
Although alcohol and night clubs are banned it all happens secretly in elite clubs and other various places. If people are actually interested i havea bunch of pictures from the night life there.
Anyways i just want you all to know dont beleive the media. Pakistan is not as conservitive as it is potrayed.
And guys Before passing any judgement on religion know the facts first please.
thanks
It sounds like an interesting trip. I’d like to hear more about it sometime. I’m sure Pakistan isn’t all these marauders with AK-47’s like we see all the time on the news.
Sorry to burst your bubble but Islam does so preach these things.
In Islam, women are a man’s property and the use of their bodies as his personal sex toy is “lawful in the Qur’an.”
Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."
The husband has the right to beat them, to lock them up and deny food if they disobey. It compares them to domestic animals. Women have no rights themselves except the right to be fed and clothed only if they are obedient to their man.
People are people the world over. I’ve done my fair share of traveling including Islamic countries and I’m convinced that people are generally decent. The problem with Islamic countries is that people have been deeply indoctrinated for centuries with Islam. Islam is a barbaric, Misogynist doctrine. There’s nothing in the Islamic scriptures that specifically says that you kill women if the piss you off, but certainly they don’t value their lives very much which is re-enforced in their “religion.”
Other Wanderer said:Superman, please provide a list of the "MOST educated and respected" figures in Pakistan supporting this stupidity. Then demonstrate why you believe these people are "respected" and "by whom" ...
Feel free to start any-time ...
It says in the article that a prominent lawmaker defends it. Ask any Imam. I’m sure you won’t be hearing much outrage from the stone worshipers crowd.
Here’s another link to another article on the same subject. There were no arrests. Nobody seems too upset about it.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2008/0901/1220180158986.html
I put the same challenge to you. Find any Muslim that is outraged over this. There’s over a billion of you. It shouldn’t be that hard…
Feel free to start any-time ...
Yes there are certainly men who do some horrible things to women all over the world in every culture. As there are women doing horrible things to men. What’s your point?Last I checked, there were several posts pointing out how the stupidity of killing women by idiotic men was a problem, for a variety of reasons, in many countries, including Muslim ones.
Last I checked, there are more than enough idiots willing to hit, beat, burn, kidnap, pimp, kill, massacre in public school, shoot at, stalk or otherwise behave stupidly towards women in all societies.
It is ridiculous "over there", and it is ridiculous "over here", and believe me, you can come up with stories which are disgusting from all sides.
Your knowledge of Islam is based on (I use the term very loosely) "information" (more properly "invention") from people who hate it. Seems a little rich that you are now lecturing people who know many more Muslims and the countries they come from on "true Islamic values".
My point is that Islam is the only “religion” that I know of that sanctions this misogynous behavior.
My information comes from the same sources that you and everyone else has. The Qur’an and Islamic Hadith. Unfortunately, this is all we have so we have to take it at face value.
It doesn’t surprise me at all that you get pretty defensive about your faith. You’re not comfortable with the realization that it’s really rotten to the core.
Having had Pakistani life long friends who do go there relatively often, their view is that the rural/tribal/fundamentalist conservatives are gaining more and more influence, even in the big cities. I know their view may have a bias due to some familial connection to the Bhutto clan but they see Pakistan as being at a dangerous point politically with power split between the military/Musharraf, the Bhutto and allied moderates, and the rural based Islamic parties (think Taliban to some extent).kingcobra20 said:...
As for Pakistan,
Pakistan if you all should know is nothing the way the media potrays it. I have a couple of Paki friends and i visited them in Pakistan. The life style there is somthing out of the movies. At one part they have the conservatives which every soceity has and on the other ultra modern people.
Although alcohol and night clubs are banned it all happens secretly in elite clubs and other various places. If people are actually interested i havea bunch of pictures from the night life there.
Anyways i just want you all to know dont beleive the media. Pakistan is not as conservitive as it is potrayed.
And guys Before passing any judgement on religion know the facts first please.
thanks
ok you continue to post the Bukharin and other Hadith extracts in this case Tabari even though I have explained to you where they come from, some of them were written some 200 years after the death of Muhammed by some guy who met another guy who talked to a guy once who heard Muhammed speak, the nation of Turkey has even taken the steps of gathering their scholars to reformulate the Hadith.Cinema Face said:Tabari IX:113 "Allah permits you to shut them in separate rooms and to beat them, but not severely. If they abstain, they have the right to food and clothing. Treat women well for they are like domestic animals and they possess nothing themselves. Allah has made the enjoyment of their bodies lawful in his Qur'an."
The husband has the right to beat them, to lock them up and deny food if they disobey. It compares them to domestic animals. Women have no rights themselves except the right to be fed and clothed only if they are obedient to their man
the word of the Quran is the only one that all Muslims agree is the direct word of God and I dare you to find anything that says a man is allowed to bury a woman alive if she refuses marriage? yet your petty extreme Likud mind continues to post crap like this, to the unaware person this looks like a direct Islamic teaching, and you have visited Islamic countries uhuh for what to sample some of the local SP's while your wife is out shopping???
OK. I’m glad to see that there’s a glimmer of decency in a culture so bereft of it.
My biggest complaint is that it’s so rare to find a Muslim with the courage to speak out against all this barbarism. All they seem to do is make excuses and blame someone else for all the atrocities committed by their faith. Case in point, all the Muslims on this board who are so quick to attack me or anyone who exposes the ugliness of their own beliefs. I have yet to read a single post from any one of them to condemn the barbaric actions of other Muslims.
And speak of one such individual; Souser, the Islamic Hadith was written by people like Tubari, Bukari and Ibm Ishaq which are considered the greatest Islamic historians. Without them, you wouldn’t have a religion because nothing would be known about it or its founder, or the early formation. Without the Hadith, you couldn’t even pray because you wouldn’t know how. The Qur’an is nothing but a random collection of hate filled rants and twisted bible stories without context or chronology but contains almost no information.
The Hadith is the best written description of the man that founded Islam. It depicts Muhammad as a blood/thirsty pirate, a slave trader and sexual pervert. Muslims try to pretend the Hadith doesn’t exist because of the extremely evil depiction of Islam’s sole prophet.
Pretending the Hadith isn’t important to Islam isn’t going to wash with anyone who understands Islam. It’s actually the most important book. The Qur’an is incomprehensible without it.
My biggest complaint is that it’s so rare to find a Muslim with the courage to speak out against all this barbarism. All they seem to do is make excuses and blame someone else for all the atrocities committed by their faith. Case in point, all the Muslims on this board who are so quick to attack me or anyone who exposes the ugliness of their own beliefs. I have yet to read a single post from any one of them to condemn the barbaric actions of other Muslims.
And speak of one such individual; Souser, the Islamic Hadith was written by people like Tubari, Bukari and Ibm Ishaq which are considered the greatest Islamic historians. Without them, you wouldn’t have a religion because nothing would be known about it or its founder, or the early formation. Without the Hadith, you couldn’t even pray because you wouldn’t know how. The Qur’an is nothing but a random collection of hate filled rants and twisted bible stories without context or chronology but contains almost no information.
The Hadith is the best written description of the man that founded Islam. It depicts Muhammad as a blood/thirsty pirate, a slave trader and sexual pervert. Muslims try to pretend the Hadith doesn’t exist because of the extremely evil depiction of Islam’s sole prophet.
Pretending the Hadith isn’t important to Islam isn’t going to wash with anyone who understands Islam. It’s actually the most important book. The Qur’an is incomprehensible without it.
Other Wanderer said:You are a well-known liar as has been established repeatedly on this board.
Whenever you post something inaccurately translated, or flat out wrong,
it gets pointed out to you, and then ...
You do it again.
The Hadith are not all 'equal' because there is a huge SCIENCE that goes into authenticating who said what to whom ... the "Hadith" you quote fall into two
categories
1) outright non-existent
2) no authentication by a chain of scholars
Finally, millions of people read the Quran quite easily on major moral principles. The idea that "whosoever takes one life without cause is like one who kills the world" is easily understandable.
You are so blinded by ignorance and hate that you can't admit that you are wrong, even when you DON"T KNOW THE VERY LANGUAGE you claim expertise in judging.
So run along now and put on your Klan outfit so I can walk away from your kind more easily.
thats what gets is me is he is repeatedly shown where his theories are out of wack and wrong and he goes back to the same dribble along with the fact he doesnt speak, read or write Arabic so outside of what he looks up on Jihad Watch, nothing is relevant
and he is an extreme right wing Likud loving Jew so more like the Kahane or JDL crowd would love him but like the Klan two sides of the same coin.
So I guess that makes them just as reliable as the Gospels and any other text of religious "enlightenment" (which IMO is about as reliable as things found on the internet).Other Wanderer said:Wrong again.
The Hadith were sayings and actions of the Prophet as observed by RELIABLE people and then related to a chain before being compiled by MANY people, of whom 2 of the 3 you mention are not major sources.
...
S
superman
thats the trend in most islamic nations, but africa isnt any betterMeister said:I just read today that 52% of women in Bangladesh are married under the age of 15.
