‘War on the car is over’: Ford moves transit underground - subways are the answer

[Sniper Jr.]

No matter what you think of subways vs light-rail, it's a little late to be cancelling a project that already had over $1 billion committed in signed contracts. Considering that a new subway line would cost billions, with no more money coming from the province, I can't wait to see where Ford finds all the "waste" to cut to pay for this.

 

[blackrock13]

Just as easy to cut and paste my post in the other Ford thread;


You can get around a lot of that by having the already agreed to companies get first refusal or dips on the new work without too much difficulty and minimize the potential losses. The new rail rolling stock can be taken over by trolly busses and as the streetcars fail and die replace them with trolley buses on all, but the elevated routes. Meanwhile you dig away at the new subway lines.

The raised platforms are a real problem and were laid out specifically to make going back on what his whiteness wanted very difficult to do. First Responders hate them now, but were quit slow in learning their problems until they were in. They cause bottle necks quickly and stop u-turns and the like when needed, making response times longer.

 

[BohemianArtist]

Toronto has done public transit wrong for years. Coming from Montreal where the subway is cheaper and runs WELL, and having been to Tokyo where public transit is LEGENDARY and driving a car is a Fool's Errand, I can safely say people in the GTA need to get off their asses and support public transit rather than fighting it. I'm just glad I decided to live close to where I work (now 3km away), as i feel nothing but shock and sympathy for the fools that spend 2+ hours of their lives in gridlock commuting daily while I can walk/bike to work in minutes.

The TTC should adopt Japan Rail's "Pay as you Go" system - they charge users by DISTANCE traveled, not one unilateral fee that lets you ride as far as you want. They have expertly measured the distance and time between each stop, and users simply pay fare according to how long they're using the service for, to the nearest distance category. For instance if you're traveling < 10km, the rate is like 180 Yen (= ~$1.60 CAD); traveling 20km?, the rate becomes like 250 Yen ($2.25); going a ridiculously farther distance like 25-30km? You pay 320-380 Yen, etc.

They use a swipe card honor system, where you have to swipe to get on (not charged yet), and then you have to swipe to get off, at which point your e-card is debited and if you haven't selected a high enough fare ticket to cover your ACTUAL distance traveled (e.g. you miscalculated or changed stops), the exit turnstile slams shut and directs you to a convenient top-up machine to pay the missing difference (if you paid by tokens/cash, instead of the e-card). No penalty fee or recriminations, just an honest mistake is assumed.

The same goes for their commuter rail system, which is an intricate network and both the subway and rail permeate EVERY sector of the city. It must have cost a FORTUNE to put in all that infrastructure, but guess what? It's THERE NOW AND EVERYBODY AND THEIR DOG USES IT GLADLY. There is seldom a slowdown (practically unheard of unless someone gets hit, and they're so socially conscious over there that even would-be jumpers have the courtesy to kill themselves elsewhere without inconveniencing everyone).

Toronto has waited TOO LONG, and lived by the ridiculous personal vehicle North American culture despite seeing the inevitable choking of the city with congestion, which is only going to get worse, not better with time unless public transit moves efficiently where cars cannot: i.e. either underground (Subways) or WAY ABOVE GROUND (monorails). The problem now is that real estate is so expensive that this dream will likely never be realized. Who can afford to buy out all the land necessary to dig underneath major arteries like Eglinton, or Steeles? In my opinion, Toronto needed at least two more East-West parallel lines that cut through the city along those roads, and another two North-South lines, perhaps near Don Mills and Islington/Jane Creek area...

Streetcars, sharing the same clogged roadways as the cars they're trying to circumvent, is retarded, and I can only assume that some poser San Francisco-wannabe proposed them back in the day when Toronto was still quaint and trying to be New York Jr... Funny thing being, NY's subway system also rocks and dwarfs ours.

There are so many errors of fact in this thread that I cannot address them all, but here are a few points.

- It's not really fair to compare Toronto to Tokyo as the population of the Greater Tokyo Area is about 30 million and extremely dense - a perfect city for subways. The way they pack people in those cars the fares might actually cover their operating costs.

- The problem with subways is that they cost about a billion dollars per kilometre. You simply can't spend that kind of money on a "build it and they might come" gamble. The density has to be there first, as it was in New York. (The population of NYC in 1920 was 5.6 million - more than the current population of the entire GTA plus Hamilton!)

- The Transit City LRTs are already under construction. $130 million has been spent (and just thrown away by Ford) and $1.3 billion in contracts signed. The Province has made it clear that the cancellation penalties on those contracts will be charged to the City, making the total cost of cancelling Transit City around $300 million. Way to be fiscally responsible Mr. Ford! http://www.thestar.com/article/899641#article

- The Yonge subway line is already at full capacity. Extending it north will only worsen congestion at the bottom.

 

[cc12rye]

There are so many errors of fact in this thread that I cannot address them all, but here are a few points.

- It's not really fair to compare Toronto to Tokyo as the population of the Greater Tokyo Area is about 30 million and extremely dense - a perfect city for subways. The way they pack people in those cars the fares might actually cover their operating costs.

- The problem with subways is that they cost about a billion dollars per kilometre. You simply can't spend that kind of money on a "build it and they might come" gamble. The density has to be there first, as it was in New York. (The population of NYC in 1920 was 5.6 million - more than the current population of the entire GTA plus Hamilton!)

- The Transit City LRTs are already under construction. $130 million has been spent (and just thrown away by Ford) and $1.3 billion in contracts signed. The Province has made it clear that the cancellation penalties on those contracts will be charged to the City, making the total cost of cancelling Transit City around $300 million. Way to be fiscally responsible Mr. Ford! http://www.thestar.com/article/899641#article

- The Yonge subway line is already at full capacity. Extending it north will only worsen congestion at the bottom.

Yeah, can you believe the nerve of the people in this thread writing factual errors? I'd much rather read claims like "The problem with subways is that they cost about a billion dollars per kilometre" when the article you cited has the GM of the TTC saying "Light rail typically costs about $75 million to $100 million per kilometer, while subways cost about $300 million, said Webster."

 

[james t kirk]

There are so many errors of fact in this thread that I cannot address them all, but here are a few points.

- It's not really fair to compare Toronto to Tokyo as the population of the Greater Tokyo Area is about 30 million and extremely dense - a perfect city for subways. The way they pack people in those cars the fares might actually cover their operating costs.

- The problem with subways is that they cost about a billion dollars per kilometre. You simply can't spend that kind of money on a "build it and they might come" gamble. The density has to be there first, as it was in New York. (The population of NYC in 1920 was 5.6 million - more than the current population of the entire GTA plus Hamilton!)

- The Transit City LRTs are already under construction. $130 million has been spent (and just thrown away by Ford) and $1.3 billion in contracts signed. The Province has made it clear that the cancellation penalties on those contracts will be charged to the City, making the total cost of cancelling Transit City around $300 million. Way to be fiscally responsible Mr. Ford! http://www.thestar.com/article/899641#article

- The Yonge subway line is already at full capacity. Extending it north will only worsen congestion at the bottom.

Subway is not a billion per km.

According to your own link, it's 300 million.

Sheppard was 5.8 km and cost about a billion dollars. Work was completed in 2002.

Toronto can afford to build more subways, they are most logical in the urban core.

I would propose that the city go back to what it was doing up until the mid 80's when it (the City of Toronto) was always constructing small portions of subway here and there. Extend to Islington. Finish - extend to Downsview, Finish, extend to Kipling. You chip away at it.

As to the cost of cancelling the contracts on the LRT - Fat Boy probably hasn't comprehended what that means just yet.

It will take a decade to design new subways. Ford seems to have forgotten that too. Like most people, he probably figures that you just phone up a Contrator and tell him what you want and he will build it. No idea what an Engineer or Architect has to do.

 

[Brandon123]

http://www3.ttc.ca/Movies/TITLE01caption.wmv

 

[castaniabrucciatta]

I couldn't care less about the transit situation in Toronto. I refuse to give the TTC anymore of my money. It's bad enough that they take part of my taxes to fund the system and I don't even use it. Talk about a ripoff.

I will not be forced to take it to support some union asshole who makes 100K+ for collecting tickets. They should fire one ticket taker, use the 100K to pay two collectors and use the extra 100K to hire another cop to make our streets safer.

I will continue to drive my gas spewing vehicle because I have the right to. I will move to either a hybrid or electric vehicle when the one I'm driving is done. If not; I'll get a fuel efficient electric or gas powered scooter. If for some reason that won't work I'll cycle to work. If that doesn't pan out, I'll walk. I'll have to get up at 4 am to get there but I'll do it.

If I can't walk I'LL FUCKING CRAWL ON MY HANDS AND KNEES BECAUSE I REFUSE TO GIVE THE TTC ANOTHER GODDAMNED PENNY!

Subway, street car, LRT, it doesn't matter what they decide. I like Ford and voted for him, but until they overhaul the way the TTC is run and funded, its all the same bullshit. They're going to take $1 from us and get 20 cents of value from it.

Breaking it down by politics, given that the TTC has become one big pile of steaming politics;
The right (me?) likes underground; the left above ground.
The right likes freedom and choice; the left likes to be forced to do things and limited or no choice.
The right likes cars and the fact that we have the right to drive them anywhere including downtown; the left hates cars and equates NOT taking the TTC as being in league with Satan and hating the environment.

The TTC should be overhauled from top to bottom. They should only hire the best of the best to run it (pay them their fair market value, too. Not some crazy public servant salary) and make sure that the have the right people there. Urban planners, engineers, the bean counters, etc. NOT politicos.

Fire a portion of their payroll that isn't involved in directly getting people around. The behind the scenes folks. Janitors, mechanics, etc. I guarantee you that if a third were to be let go, you wouldn't even notice it, once you get past the union posturing, stomping and threats. I have heard first hand from people that work for the TTC what constitutes a 'typical' work day for them. Unbelievable.

Figure out what really is the best way to improve the system and for Christ's sake, LEAVE THE POLITICS OUT OF IT. Above or below ground, it doesn't matter just make it work and make affordable.

Go to the province and get more funding from them. Since the bulk of tax revenues to the province comes from users of the TTC (ie. GTA residents), why should the City bear the brunt of the cost. I'm not asking for a handout. Just some fairness.

Make sure that when it comes time to build and pay for this that there aren't any sweetheart deals. Make sure the process is again, fair and competitive and that the right companies are contracted.

I've seen alot of comments from members who have lived abroad and have tried different systems around the world. we should take some best practices from them and make them work here.

Don't MAKE me take the TTC; make me WANT to take the TTC.

I'm drunk (I took a cab!) and need to go to bed, now.

CB

 

[oldjones]

Of course the subway Toronto needs is the one Ford will never build, because it's the one Mike Harris filled in after tunneling began—big savings for taxpayers, just like Rob's—the one under Eglinton where the existing density's been screaming for transit since well before the Bomber's time.

There was an LRT under way for Eg, but it didn't fit with Ford's surrender to the car. So we get more subway to nowhere. And just like with his predecessor's 'solution' Rob's costs us big money undoing what was underway already. 'Money for nothin'.

And after he pays those bills he's gonna build subways? Out of what tax revenue?

 

[flubadub]

Here's a bit from the Globe about the ridership necessary to sustain LRT's and subways, and what they project from the Sheppard line:

Projected 2031 ridership

Sheppard East LRT: 3,000 passengers*
Eglinton LRT: 5,400
Finch West LRT: 2,800
Scarborough RT: 8,000
Ridership required to achieve economic viability for different modes operating in partial or exclusive rights of way

Bus Rapid Transit with bypass lanes: 2,000-8,000 passengers
Surface LRT: 3,000-10,000
Elevated/tunnelled LRT: 8,000-20,000
Subway/GO Transit: 15,000+
* All figures represent peak period ridership in one direction

Source: TTC

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/metrolinxs-usefulness-now-in-question/article1823229/

 

[chiller_boy]

Building subways are great, but where Ford is talking about building them is dumb. (He is proposing replacing the Scarborough LRT with subway, and extend the Sheppard line to Scarborough Town Centre.

Dumb.

I could see building an Eglinton subway line, or a Queen Street subway line, but I can't see the need for what the hell Ford is talking about. He doens't know what the fuck he is talking about.

The best solution is probably a combination of LRT and subway.

But Mayor Tommy Boy just has a hate on for Street Cars period cause they get in his way in his big honking SUV.

Here's the hell of it people.

You can't just switch to subways without it taking a decade. They've been planning and designing the LRT (Transit City) for at least 6 or 7 years and NOTHING has been built. They aren't even close to letting any Tenders as far as I am aware.

To design subway lines is going to take 10 years, by which time, so many roadblocks will get thrown in front of the project that NOTHING will get done and it will be worse than ever.

I agree with most of what you said, but not all. I dont agree with the queen street subway line(it would have an be astronomical cost.) An eglington line(x town ) is not the way to go. Assuming that what we want is public transport to carry more passengers to work to reduce car traffic( a'skirmish' with the car) David millers idea of a relief line is the best idea. Consider a line that incorporates the planned pearson link(and where is that in Ford's plan by the way?) but extends it to Sauga and Brampton and then is extended(on the east end from Union) north to Scarbourough and beyond would be the best approach by far. Fords current plan, as he described it by extending the shepard line is plain stupid and proves that the man and his advisors(does he have any?) do not understand transit. The current subway lines are completely overloaded at rush hour and adding more people simply will not work. Transit time must be kept to an hour(max) if at all possible and separate express type lines is the only way to do this.

 

[nottyboi]

There really needs to be MUCH more automation in the TTC. Frankly the Skytrain in Bangkok is way more automated then the TTC and wages in BK are $10/day.

 

[james t kirk]

I agree with most of what you said, but not all. I dont agree with the queen street subway line(it would have an be astronomical cost.) An eglington line(x town ) is not the way to go. Assuming that what we want is public transport to carry more passengers to work to reduce car traffic( a'skirmish' with the car) David millers idea of a relief line is the best idea. Consider a line that incorporates the planned pearson link(and where is that in Ford's plan by the way?) but extends it to Sauga and Brampton and then is extended(on the east end from Union) north to Scarbourough and beyond would be the best approach by far. Fords current plan, as he described it by extending the shepard line is plain stupid and proves that the man and his advisors(does he have any?) do not understand transit. The current subway lines are completely overloaded at rush hour and adding more people simply will not work. Transit time must be kept to an hour(max) if at all possible and separate express type lines is the only way to do this.

I believee that London and NYC are probably good examples to follow when it comes to building subways. They make developers build the stations into the basements of buildings. (And the developers are happy to do so.)

Sherway Gardends would love to have Bloor extended down to them I'm sure (and it's not that far from Kipling Station)

Then you build a Queen line from Sherway to Vic Park.

Now you're getting somewhere.

There are also railway corridors in City which could accomodate at Grade subways. For example, the CPR line from Toronto West Junction (where you tie in with GO) runs east west to Leaside. There is room there for 6 tracks, but CPR only has 2 with a few sidings along the way.

There is are many examples of this.

 

[good to go]

In order to get more people using the system you must reach out to the areas outside of downtown toronto. They have enough options for travel already, extend east to Pickering and West to Mississauga. Extending north is an option later on after they repair all of the thin rail that is on the yonge line. The LRT will not hold up to the extra traffic that will be put on it during the Pan-Am games, it is falling apart even as we speak and we dont even have snow yet. Scarborough has been given the shaft for over 20 years with that political mess. The best possible use of subway is to link sheppard to the east and extend to Downsview. This will give people more options to go east or west rather than a bus which is a huge waste of money as far as moving peopleat any rate of speed. The subway has fewer stops as there are only stations at major streets which makes it a logical choice going forward to the future of the ttc being able to get commuters to use the system. Nobody in their right mind is going to use the ttc when it is not running due to bad weather, the examples of paris etc are not valid as they do not have anywhere near our weather changes. The subway is not effected by weather, it will move the most people period , we must always look to the future of the population density as our major consideration.

 

[FatOne]

- The Yonge subway line is already at full capacity.

So Toronto does have the density for subways.

 

[canada-man]

http://i53.tinypic.com/scq0kz.jpg

 

[BohemianArtist]

So Toronto does have the density for subways.

Yes. All those 40-70 storey towers in the downtown core make it a good place for subways. Sheppard and Leslie? Not so good.

 

[nottyboi]

Just as easy to cut and paste my post in the other Ford thread;


You can get around a lot of that by having the already agreed to companies get first refusal or dips on the new work without too much difficulty and minimize the potential losses. The new rail rolling stock can be taken over by trolly busses and as the streetcars fail and die replace them with trolley buses on all, but the elevated routes. Meanwhile you dig away at the new subway lines.

The raised platforms are a real problem and were laid out specifically to make going back on what his whiteness wanted very difficult to do. First Responders hate them now, but were quit slow in learning their problems until they were in. They cause bottle necks quickly and stop u-turns and the like when needed, making response times longer.

Yes, but raised platforms also make the rails last longer....I would be ok if they went with fully elevated platforms like skytrains in Chicago. With a bit of creativity you can even incorporate sections of elevated road into the platform and create sheltered pedestrian malls along the line. So much additional commercial real estate will be freed up it would pay for most of the project.

 

[FatOne]

Yes. All those 40-70 storey towers in the downtown core make it a good place for subways. Sheppard and Leslie? Not so good.

But it would bode well for expansion of the network in some areas.

How about the extension of the East Orange line from Henri Bourassa to 3 stations in Laval. there isn't much density there at all, especially at the end station of Montmorency, but the extension has been a success. I took it from Montmorency to Berri Uqam on a Tuesday around 6pm [from the burbs to downtown, in the evening the "wrong" way] and it was quite crowded. It was even crowded on the way back, not Tokyo crowded, good usage. I won't say Montmorecy is a bit in the middle of nowhere, but by Toronto standards, yeah it is. Hell by Hamilton Mountain standards it is. Enough space for a huge freaken parking lot and plenty of empty space beyond.

If that line could work...

The reason it works is because of the huge parking lot. I drove into Quebec from the 401, to the 40 via the 540, up to laval on the 13 and across the island, walked from the car to the station, [it is a big parking lot and full up] rather than drive straight in via the 20 to the 720 to struggle with traffic and parking.

I know if I were in Hamilton and there was a metro or a Go Train stop with lots of parking, say near the QEW/403 intersection, I'd rather pay the 20 bucks to take it than fuck around with traffic and try to find a parking spot.

 

[5hummer]

It's a step back. Period.

The election of Rob Ford as Mayor is a big step backwards for Toronto as far as public transit goes.

 

[nottyboi]

It's a step back. Period.

Smitherman was just as lacking... Rob Ford may surprise. We shall see.