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‘Transgender’ athletes have ‘intolerable’ advantage over real women, new study....

mandrill

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The science isn't laughable, their selective use of the science is.

There is more to the male advantage than testosterone levels. If that is the totality of their position, their position is a total joke. It could only be explained by a willful ignorence at the level of a Trump supporter.

Also the idea that the advantages of higher test levels go away after 12 months is questionable at the very least. With muscle memory someone who nears their genetic limits with test [natty or otherwise, or even exceed natty limits] will even with lower test should be able to maintain higher muscle levels than someone who never had test. This is probably why some would wait for 10 years for the good shit. Some guy saying, Oh I quit roids a year ago, natty now would be laughed at. It's about up there with Ronnie Coleman or Dwayne Johnson claiming to be natty.
"All INBF/WNBF athletes must be 10 years drug free of prescription/pharmaceutical hormones on the banned substance list and two years free of over-the-counter hormones, pro-hormones or banned substances listed or their chemical counterparts, unless otherwise noted, prior to their first INBF or WNBF competition."

My point is that political correctness is where reality goes to die. It's sort of like Fox News. Again from what I've seen, it's pretty much at the level of what you posted in the blue.

Also some more recent research
On Chair Force members
They maintained a slight advantage on pushups, dropped on situps and maintained an advantage on the 1.5 mile run after 2 years
In athletes trying to push to their limits, I'd figure it would be even more of an advantage. My father was in the Royal Canadian Chair Force in the 50's, it isn't exactly rigorous. I would thing Marine infanty with their attitude and all the crayons they can eat, the gap would stay wider. Inactive old people also lose strength faster than say Clarence Bass.
Consider elite sport is a matter or percent and milliseconds and even in high school sport, it could make a difference between scholarship or having Aunt Becky sneaking you in.

Of course one study is only one study. I am not a covidiot. However it isn't as if the issue has a huge base of studies on the topic. We probably will never know the full picture.

Also that pwn the libs thing. Really? It's like you don't even know me. Oh yeah, we don't know each other. So I guess it's understandable.
Although Trump was right. His supporters are special... special needs.
If you wrote for not only a non scientist, but also a non athletics guy, it would help. And no, I am suggesting the rest of the anti trans phalanx are trying to "own the libs", not you. But you probably got that anyway.

Let me throw a couple of curves. First, the problem is actually minuscule, aside from its "culture war" ramifications for our pseudo-GOP thread-mates. If only 3 trans athletes are competing in the Olympics, out of a coterie of 11,000, we're talking about a minor footnote to the Olympic Games. And if so, the science can be sloppy without it being a major impact. IIRC, one of the trans athletes was a Brazilian volleyballer and that doesn't strike me as a particularly test-y sport, so much as having quick reactions. The other that I recall was a weight-lifter. And yup, we're all saying "guys are stronger than girls" on this one. But the genetic women competing in that event are probably highly atypical physiological women as well.

Second, "political correctness" is actually shorthand for government policy in - I would guess - every Western country outside the GOP / evangelical nutbar / Fox News USA. I attended a mandatory "trans inclusion" seminar provided by the Law Society last week. It featured a ftm judge and a ftm law professor and it was introduced by two senior (cis) judges who instructed those listening about "courtesy to trans colleagues and litigants". Essentially, we were given our marching orders.

When the Law Society and the Judiciary in Doug Ford's Ontario instruct the Bar to be trans inclusive, trans inclusion is now the policy - not only of the "SJW woketards", as our buddy Oracle would say - but of the ruling right of centre party in the largest province in the country.

So again, maybe the science is sloppy, but the politics are far more than just "fringe" or "flaky academics".

I glanced at the (highly selective and biased) extract from a science article linked in the OP's post. It was framed as an issue of medical ethics - "is inclusion worth sloppy science?" Apparently there are position papers written by med school academics which go both ways on this. Only the negative article was cited in the (Extremist Christian anti LGBTQ / anti abortion wackjob) site. The article itself was expensively paywalled.

To react to your science, you would have to tell me more about the residual, post hormone therapy advantages that trans women have over genetic women. You need to dumb this down, as in REALLY dumb this down for me to follow what you're saying without having to read it 5 or 6 xx and guess at some stuff.
 

jcpro

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Silly, sure , but those who advocate for it simply hurt women and their participation in sports and even education. The selection for athletic positions starts early and the slots are few as are the scholarships- a way to acquire education for many of the especially less rich individuals. It's myopic to think that allowing biological men to compete with women only affects the Olympics or top champions. It literally denies educational opportunities to biological females.
 

mandrill

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A bit of blowback vs the rugby people when they changed their rules.
However it's rugby, a sport that few care about.
You'll have to tell me what took place.

I half-heartedly follow the 6 Nations every winter and use any Welsh success as an excuse for a celebratory beer and I played in high school, but I don't keep a close eye on the sport.
 

mandrill

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Silly, sure , but those who advocate for it simply hurt women and their participation in sports and even education. The selection for athletic positions starts early and the slots are few as are the scholarships- a way to acquire education for many of the especially less rich individuals. It's myopic to think that allowing biological men to compete with women only affects the Olympics or top champions. It literally denies educational opportunities to biological females.
But my impression is again that this is simply not a live issue. The righties love to push the idea of massive, muscular dudes literally beating the crap out of dainty girls on every high school team in the USA. It's the outrage factor and the political mileage.

But the random comments I came across when I googled to the same topic a few weeks ago, is that there are very, very few trans people and far, far fewer are dedicated athletes. And the eviction of genetic females from amateur sports is simply not occurring, as alleged by your GOP buddies. Thus, the push for trans inclusion at the cost maybe of rough and ready science.
 

jcpro

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But my impression is again that this is simply not a live issue. The righties love to push the idea of massive, muscular dudes literally beating the crap out of dainty girls on every high school team in the USA. It's the outrage factor and the political mileage.

But the random comments I came across when I googled to the same topic a few weeks ago, is that there are very, very few trans people and far, far fewer are dedicated athletes. And the eviction of genetic females from amateur sports is simply not occurring, as alleged by your GOP buddies. Thus, the push for trans inclusion at the cost maybe of rough and ready science.
You honestly believe that the prospects of the Ivy League education for free will not create demand???? Seriously your that naive?
 

mandrill

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You honestly believe that the prospects of the Ivy League education for free will not create demand???? Seriously your that naive?
You mean as a 16 year old dude, would I have my balls and dick snipped off, take years of hormone therapy and counseling and learn how to play women's field hockey to marginally improve my chances of getting a financial subsidy to attend Harvard?

And that financial subsidy is always going to be highly unlikely, just because of the competition.

What drugs are you on, JC? What young guy is going to do that? What medical professional is going to cooperate in the emotional and hormone therapy? It's not as though you can ring The Amazon Dick-Snipping Fake Tits and Estrogen Service and it all takes place next Thursday down at the public library.

Seriously, what imaginary Fox News Alternative Universe are you living in?!
 

jcpro

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You mean as a 16 year old dude, would I have my balls and dick snipped off, take years of hormone therapy and counseling and learn how to play women's field hockey to marginally improve my chances of getting a financial subsidy to attend Harvard?

And that financial subsidy is always going to be highly unlikely, just because of the competition.

What drugs are you on, JC? What young guy is going to do that? What medical professional is going to cooperate in the emotional and hormone therapy? It's not as though you can ring The Amazon Dick-Snipping Fake Tits and Estrogen Service and it all takes place next Thursday down at the public library.

Seriously, what imaginary Fox News Alternative Universe are you living in?!
You know astrology or something, you can read and cut and paste. What you cannot do is think; think ahead especially. Opportunity or need always create demand. Period.
 
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NotADcotor

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NotADcotor

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If only 3 trans athletes are competing in the Olympics, out of a coterie of 11,000
I'd say if it's only a matter of 3 athletes, why upend the wagon cart on it.

Second, "political correctness" is actually shorthand for government policy in - I would guess - every Western country outside the GOP / evangelical nutbar / Fox News USA. I attended a mandatory "trans inclusion" seminar provided by the Law Society last week. It featured a ftm judge and a ftm law professor and it was introduced by two senior (cis) judges who instructed those listening about "courtesy to trans colleagues and litigants". Essentially, we were given our marching orders.
The Olympics I'd consider to be an offshoot of governments. Isn't it basically an event where people whip out their country balls and see whose is bigger by watching a bunch of mostly government sponsored athletes compete for government honour in government teams.

I glanced at the (highly selective and biased) extract from a science article linked in the OP's post
Big Sleazy is the OP. Why would you do that to yourself. He is... special... needs.

Apparently there are position papers written by med school academics which go both ways on this.
Tee Hee. Both ways. I have the body of a 100 year old and the mentality of a 12 year old. I admit it.

To react to your science, you would have to tell me more about the residual, post hormone therapy advantages that trans women have over genetic women. You need to dumb this down, as in REALLY dumb this down for me to follow what you're saying without having to read it 5 or 6 xx and guess at some stuff.
Coming into this as a non science guy with a lifting history. I do Olympic style lifting, I train for 2 weeks and take for years off. Badabump!
Basically when you get them gainz and lose them, it's easier to gain them again. So if say you have someone whose normal genetic limit is 195 pounds and he roids up to 220, once he goes back to natural and does his post cycle therapy and his balls grow back he could probably go beyond his previous natural limit of 195 without the juice. Nowhere near 220. The BB federation seems to assume/think/guess that it takes 10 years for this to go away.
A dude who goes from X test to 1/10 X test if one is training hard, would could assume that they should retain the results of more than 1/10X

Of course there are other advantages. As someone who is 6'2, there isn't many dudes my height, females are extremely rare. Pity in a way.

Then there is this big name trans researcher, the work she puts out, just doesn't impress me much to be honest.

Granted anyone who knows Yes Minister knows how to discredit any study.

In Stage 1 you give your reasons for ignoring the report in terms of the public interest. You say that it puts unwelcome pressure on government, that there is need for wider and more detailed studies over a longer time scale.
In Stage 2 you discredit the evidence. You say it leaves questions unanswered, its evidence is inconclusive and open to other interpretations. Certain findings are contradictory and some of the main conclusions have been questioned. Of course you don’t do this officially, but you leak it through compliant media.
In Stage 3 you undermine the recommendations. You say they are not a sound enough basis for decision, do not provide sufficient information and therefore there is no need for a fundamental rethink.
Finally in Stage 4 you discredit the authors of the report. You say they are harbouring a grudge against the government and have their own agendas.


I half-heartedly follow the 6 Nations every winter
Tell me when it's 7 nations.
 

NotADcotor

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You mean as a 16 year old dude, would I have my balls and dick snipped off, take years of hormone therapy and counseling and learn how to play women's field hockey to marginally improve my chances of getting a financial subsidy to attend Harvard?
Have they not removed the requirement for chopping off the old meat and two veg?
Also when they ask athletes a disturbing number have said they would be willing to remove years from their life to win. They are a weird bunch.
Hate to bring up Ronnie Coleman again but the guy crippled himself [deadlifting 805 for 3] and he still can't stay out of the gym. I was on a forum with a guy like that except he was basically a nobody. He also had no regrets.

The Amazon Dick-Snipping Fake Tits and Estrogen Service
Well when I won the 70 million I was going to learn mortuary science and start in funeral home in Newfoundland called dead newfie storage but I like your idea also.
 

mandrill

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I'd say if it's only a matter of 3 athletes, why upend the wagon cart on it.

The Olympics I'd consider to be an offshoot of governments. Isn't it basically an event where people whip out their country balls and see whose is bigger by watching a bunch of mostly government sponsored athletes compete for government honour in government teams.

Big Sleazy is the OP. Why would you do that to yourself. He is... special... needs.
Tee Hee. Both ways. I have the body of a 100 year old and the mentality of a 12 year old. I admit it.
Coming into this as a non science guy with a lifting history. I do Olympic style lifting, I train for 2 weeks and take for years off. Badabump!
Basically when you get them gainz and lose them, it's easier to gain them again. So if say you have someone whose normal genetic limit is 195 pounds and he roids up to 220, once he goes back to natural and does his post cycle therapy and his balls grow back he could probably go beyond his previous natural limit of 195 without the juice. Nowhere near 220. The BB federation seems to assume/think/guess that it takes 10 years for this to go away.
A dude who goes from X test to 1/10 X test if one is training hard, would could assume that they should retain the results of more than 1/10X

Of course there are other advantages. As someone who is 6'2, there isn't many dudes my height, females are extremely rare. Pity in a way.

Then there is this big name trans researcher, the work she puts out, just doesn't impress me much to be honest.

Granted anyone who knows Yes Minister knows how to discredit any study.

In Stage 1 you give your reasons for ignoring the report in terms of the public interest. You say that it puts unwelcome pressure on government, that there is need for wider and more detailed studies over a longer time scale.
In Stage 2 you discredit the evidence. You say it leaves questions unanswered, its evidence is inconclusive and open to other interpretations. Certain findings are contradictory and some of the main conclusions have been questioned. Of course you don’t do this officially, but you leak it through compliant media.
In Stage 3 you undermine the recommendations. You say they are not a sound enough basis for decision, do not provide sufficient information and therefore there is no need for a fundamental rethink.
Finally in Stage 4 you discredit the authors of the report. You say they are harbouring a grudge against the government and have their own agendas.

Tell me when it's 7 nations.
So why does the Olympics allow trans athletes?

Leaving aside the science that you don't like, what is the motivation for the Olympics to take such a controversial step?

Trans persons rights are controversial. I doubt that there are many ordinary Twitter following "SJW's" who are prepared to go to bat for this, despite what Ben Shapiro tells Oracle and Know-it-All. Probably a fair few gender studies profs and that ilk, but they have no influence outside mean-ass campus politics.

I keep reading that the South Carolina bathroom bill was torpedoed by corporate opposition in casual comments on Twitter and elsewhere, but the trans consumer market must be minuscule. I personally know 1 trans person. That's it. I assume I know well over a hundred gays.
 

mandrill

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Have they not removed the requirement for chopping off the old meat and two veg?
Also when they ask athletes a disturbing number have said they would be willing to remove years from their life to win. They are a weird bunch.
Hate to bring up Ronnie Coleman again but the guy crippled himself [deadlifting 805 for 3] and he still can't stay out of the gym. I was on a forum with a guy like that except he was basically a nobody. He also had no regrets.


Well when I won the 70 million I was going to learn mortuary science and start in funeral home in Newfoundland called dead newfie storage but I like your idea also.
I don't know what the Olympic requirement for being a woman is. I can only assume that the hormone therapy itself must really fuck you up.

Aren't athletes addicted to the buzz of competing, if only to push their own limits? If so, some jock kid who's impressed by his lifting is not going to pump estrogen into his butt to compete at a lower level as a trans woman. Leaving aside the whole medical ethics shtick of the doctors simply refusing to do it.

What JC was suggesting is that the new way of getting into Harvard would no longer be getting your dad to pay $250,000 to bribe the lacrosse coach to say your an All Star player, but rather paying some doc $250,000 to pump your kid full of lady hormones and then getting him onto the women's lacrosse team. But seriously what kid is going to do this EXCEPT a kid who wants to be trans anyway. In which case, we're back to arguing about the science.
 

NotADcotor

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Leaving aside the science that you don't like, what is the motivation for the Olympics to take such a controversial step?

Trans persons rights are controversial.
Yes and no. I often make fun of the thing and I have yet to get blow back. Someone calls me sir at a store and I mock in horror "did you just assume my gender" never not once does that not get a laugh.
OTOH for rights that are controversial they sure have a lot of them. Why would a law society have the event that you described. Why does Jordan Peterson get run off campuses on a regular basis or his speech at Queens where people were banging at the windows the whole time. The guy is a total mook when it comes to religion but if you actually hear what he says on trans issues and for that matter women's issues, I mean without an ideological lens, he isn't really saying anything worth that much blow back. He is far far from an Uncle Fucker like Tucker. At McMaster his even was shut down.
I'd hazard a guess that even if most people are "dude, dudes should not compete against women" when it comes to those who will rush the barricades there are more Trannies and their SJW supporters who really care than there are girls and their supporters who are willing to be called bigots and speak out against it. Most people don't give a fuck.
Which is another thing, being called a bigot or a racist is not only unpleasant but can impact you down the road, even if it isn't true.

Much like how if you were to deregulate taxi cabs [even before the uber period], the cab drivers would go balistic which is why again before uber they didn't do it. However those people who can't afford cars but need a taxi and end up paying more, there are more of them, plenty of people who dig markets, but they don't care as much as it's once in a while thing or a theory thing, not a weekly paycheck thing.


Aren't athletes addicted to the buzz of competing, if only to push their own limits? If so, some jock kid who's impressed by his lifting is not going to pump estrogen into his butt to compete at a lower level as a trans woman
Apperently athletes are addicted to winning, even if it means cheating. Corked bats,, deflated balls, Tonya Harding taking the knee before it was cool], roids, HGH etc.

Am I saying it will be common. No. Will it happen enough to be a serious concern, probably not. However I'd be kinda surprised if it never happens, not even once. Not that we are likely to know. I mean who is to say someone feels like a woman or is just doing it for the wins.
Like that buff dude who broke all the woman's records and claimed that at that particular time he felt like a female and we shouldn't be bigots. Yeah we all know he was taking the piss but if someone does the whole Trans thing, as long as they shut up about it, we never know their actual reasons.
 

basketcase

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Late the the party.

Ill say this size matters in most sports.

Whether you are XX or XY matters as well.

Where things get hazy is when you have organizations like the IOC saying a XY transperspn who wants to compete with XX athletes must test below a certain level of testosterone for over 1 year.

So i cant say i know enough about what a man taking drugs to boost esteogen and reduce esteogen for a year would look and perform like.
NCAA has had similar rules for a few years and we don't see any sign that Trans-women are dominating women's sports.

This is a made up crisis, often fixated on by men who have a low regard for women's sports (and sometimes women themselves) in the first place. If there ever comes a time when there is abuse of the system then it would be worth discussing. Hell, if some cis-guy decides to live as a woman and take anti-testosterone drugs for a few years just to win an competition, I'd give credit for their commitment.

As far as the IOC, the NCAA, WNBA, or whomever is concerned, they'll make their decisions and it will only matter what they and any court challenges deem as fair. If there are people who want to start their own competitions limited to XX then let them. They can call it the XX-Games.
 
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basketcase

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I'm not interested in ladyboys, I fuck them- from time to time. As for this- it's not the size of the problem, it's the issue itself. Should male athletes be allowed to compete with females? It's a simple question.
I find it so interesting that you occasionally enjoy having sex with trans-women but are so worried about whether it's fair it is for them to compete with women.
 

NotADcotor

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NCAA has had similar rules for a few years and we don't see any sign that Trans-women are dominating women's sports.

This is a made up crisis, often fixated on by men who have a low regard for women's sports (and sometimes women themselves) in the first place. If there ever comes a time when there is abuse of the system then it would be worth discussing. Hell, if some cis-guy decides to live as a woman and take anti-testosterone drugs for a few years just to win an competition, I'd give credit for their commitment.

As far as the IOC, the NCAA, WNBA, or whomever is concerned, they'll make their decisions and it will only matter what they and any court challenges deem as fair. If there are people who want to start their own competitions limited to XX then let them. They can call it the XX-Games.
We do have XX games, or we used to. It was called woman's sports.
I've seen a few cases of dudes dominating women's sports that it isn't an epidemic is probably a function of how few trans there are and how few of those are in sport at all.
It still doesn't make it fair.

Also the fewness of trans athletes would be an argument for not even bothering. If it isn't a big deal, it goes both ways.

Like that South African guy with the artificial legs they let compete. How can you even equate that to people with legs and feet. You just can't. They just had to let him compete though because of his fictional rights.

But sure, lets get rid of all gendered sports and weight classes, for that matter if you want to run a marathon in a lambo, go ahead, hey maybe the dude identifies as a human lambo cross and who are we to judge.

Also dudes in female sport just feeds into this false idea that transwomen are women. They are not. Live like one, sure, be treated as one socially sure. However they cross the line when they claim to be actual women, they are not and we just don't have the medical ability to turn someone's gender like that.

Also the purpose of sport isn't so a few people can affirm their gender. Neither are those who do Brazilian waxes.
 
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jcpro

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I find it so interesting that you occasionally enjoy having sex with trans-women but are so worried about whether it's fair it is for them to compete with women.
That's because I'm a fair man and able to add two and two together.
 

frankcastle

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We do have XX games, or we used to. It was called woman's sports.
I've seen a few cases of dudes dominating women's sports that it isn't an epidemic is probably a function of how few trans there are and how few of those are in sport at all.
It still doesn't make it fair.

Also the fewness of trans athletes would be an argument for not even bothering. If it isn't a big deal, it goes both ways.

Like that South African guy with the artificial legs they let compete. How can you even equate that to people with legs and feet. You just can't. They just had to let him compete though because of his fictional rights.

But sure, lets get rid of all gendered sports and weight classes, for that matter if you want to run a marathon in a lambo, go ahead, hey maybe the dude identifies as a human lambo cross and who are we to judge.

Also dudes in female sport just feeds into this false idea that transwomen are women. They are not. Live like one, sure, be treated as one socially sure. However they cross the line when they claim to be actual women, they are not and we just don't have the medical ability to turn someone's gender like that.

Also the purpose of sport isn't so a few people can affirm their gender. Neither are those who do Brazilian waxes.
This is the slippery slope argument.

Why would any male with talent choose to compete in a female version of the sport to dominate and get paid a fraction of a male?

For example the league minimum for NBA is 925k

Meanwhile highest paid WNBA player is 221K
 
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