How could Bill Gates be so stupid?

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Shaquille Oatmeal

Shaquille Oatmeal

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Frankfooter said:
That reply was part of a longer conversation with valcazar, feel free to join in but don't tell me what we have been talking about.

Carney was talking about 'principled and pragmatic' and it if in with the longer conversation. My argument with valcazar was from the election where valcazar argued that dems owed their vote to Biden and Harris and that even though Biden was aid and paying for the genocide in Gaza, valcazar argued it was 'pragmatic' to vote for genocide to keep trump out of power. My argument is that genocide is a moral red line.

But given how much trouble trump is as its being revealed that Epstein was Mossad and were blackmailing trump, and Bill Gates suffered the same fate, its not unreasonable to bring up Palestine. Its just looking like the big moral question of this century so far.

Why would any western leader be pro Israel while they are committing genocide?
Why should any voter put up with supporting that?
Its worse than supporting ICE.
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Well, Trump is objectively worse than Biden on the Israel issue.
He is now attacking Iran and Israel's genocide has only gotten more brazen under Trump.
So clearly, Valcazar was right that out of the choices, Harris was still the appropriate choice for Muslims in particular.
Most western leaders are pro-Israel, due to various reasons such as lobbying, foreign policy alignment and historical ties with Israel etc.,
But this is a separate issue.
Am still not clear what the connection between Palestine and Carney's speech at Davos is.
Carney's principled and pragmatic comment was solely directed at US-Canada, and US-global relations as it regards trade and sovereignty.
You seem to be appropriating it for your own purposes.
 
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Frankfooter

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Shaquille Oatmeal said:
Well, Trump is objectively worse than Biden on the Israel issue.
He is now attacking Iran and Israel's genocide has only gotten more brazen under Trump.
So clearly, Valcazar was right that out of the choices, Harris was still the appropriate choice for Muslims in particular.
Most western leaders are pro-Israel, due to various reasons such as lobbying, foreign policy alignment and historical ties with Israel etc.,
But this is a separate issue.
Am still not clear what the connection between Palestine and Carney's speech at Davos is.
Carney's principled and pragmatic comment was solely directed at US-Canada, and US-global relations as it regards trade and sovereignty.
You seem to be appropriating it for your own purposes.
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No, the appropriate thing was to push the party to block support for Israel. As far as it went, valcazar gained nothing, support for Palestine was enough to lose the election for Harris, making his plan fail.

The connection is related to the statement that principles must be applied 'pragmatically'. Where valcazar would argue this means you excuse all war crimes from people who sell you things you really want. The other take is that Carney was suggesting that means not supporting america under fascism. Support for Palestine falls under that same discussion, pragmatically what can you possibly gain by supporting Israel at this point? Will we see that reflected in policy?

An article like this wouldn't have made the CBC last year.

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www.cbc.ca
 
Shaquille Oatmeal

Shaquille Oatmeal

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Frankfooter said:
The other take is that Carney was suggesting that means not supporting america under fascism. Support for Palestine falls under that same discussion....
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Yes, America. Not Israel.
There is no connection here between what Carney said and the Palestinian issue.
You just chose to appropriate his words and make a connection where none exists.
Basically this is just your framing, not what Carney said.
 
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Frankfooter

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Shaquille Oatmeal said:
Yes, America. Not Israel.
There is no connection here between what Carney said and the Palestinian issue.
You just chose to appropriate his words and make a connection where none exists.
Basically this is just your framing, not what Carney said.
Click to expand...
Sure it does, we are talking about what Carney's 'principled but pragmatic' policy would look like.
The two largest issues for that these days are trump and unfortunately still, Israel.
 
Valcazar

Valcazar

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Frankfooter said:
Here we go again.

I'm sure that you loved Carney's speech and the idea that principles should be applied 'pragmatically', as it backs your argument that backing Harris and Biden's aid of genocide was 'pragmatic'. But you can also read that speech with its support of UN based support of the middle sized states as being support for human rights.
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No no.
Nuance isn't allowed.
He is either evil or not.

For instance, he hasn't arrested Netanhyahu.
Therefore he is committing genocide.



Though where Carney stands on Israel is still unclear, you can also see how that's playing right now in Australia with Herzog's visit. There it looks not very pragmatic to back a state that the country has recognized as being genocidal, as it is here.

Canada has always been willing to support american hegemony, as a form of pragmatic principles but now we also see the limit to that support. Where Carney and Canada are not supporting american policy any longer. america is becoming isolated as is Israel, with both countries facing global backlash. You know you see it the states with the growing discussions about the toxicity of AIPAC funded candidates. In this case it looks like Carney's speech may actually be against some of the world order you've been implicitly backing here.
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I'm glad you seem to have just decided to stop pretending you aren't just doing "It's good when I like it and bad when I don't".
 
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Valcazar

Valcazar

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Frankfooter said:
Your choice to overlook supporting genocide was very much against rules based order and is part of the reason trump is in power.
It wasn't even pragmatic since you gave up principles and trump still won.
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You've seemed very excited by how well things have turned out for Gaza, I admit.
Everything is better now, just like you predicted.
 
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Valcazar

Valcazar

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Shaquille Oatmeal said:
Well, Trump is objectively worse than Biden on the Israel issue.
He is now attacking Iran and Israel's genocide has only gotten more brazen under Trump.
So clearly, Valcazar was right that out of the choices, Harris was still the appropriate choice for Muslims in particular.
Click to expand...
Frank's argument during the election was that
a) Trump can't possibly worse than Biden.
b) Just because Trump campaigned on being worse than Biden, see a.
c) Actually, if the Dems lost because of Palestine, then long term that would be better for Palestine, because the Dems would change their minds in 4 years and come back into power.
d) Including anything else Trump would do in the discussion meant you were a moral monster who valued those lives above Palestenian lives.
e) All of the above applied to Harris as well, because she wouldn't distance herself enough from Biden.
 
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Frankfooter

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Valcazar said:
No no.
Nuance isn't allowed.
He is either evil or not.

For instance, he hasn't arrested Netanhyahu.
Therefore he is committing genocide.
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Prepping some new defences of zionism?
Its genocide but at least the cannibal pedo tribe linked to new the police state has a 'ceasefire', or something like that?

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/2022541377788350764


I'm glad you seem to have just decided to stop pretending you aren't just doing "It's good when I like it and bad when I don't".
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I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Must be some internal dialogue again.
 
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Frankfooter

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Valcazar said:
Frank's argument during the election was that
a) Trump can't possibly worse than Biden.
b) Just because Trump campaigned on being worse than Biden, see a.
c) Actually, if the Dems lost because of Palestine, then long term that would be better for Palestine, because the Dems would change their minds in 4 years and come back into power.
d) Including anything else Trump would do in the discussion meant you were a moral monster who valued those lives above Palestenian lives.
e) All of the above applied to Harris as well, because she wouldn't distance herself enough from Biden.
Click to expand...
Nope, that wasn't my argument.
a) wrong
b) wrong
c) No, the argument was the dems should have pressured Harris to change her Palestine policy so she could have won. Biden enable the genocide just as much as trump has, Harris campaigned on more of the same. Now zionism is globally hated, the dems are pushing back against AIPAC control. But still would have been better if the dem leadership listened to their voters instead of AIPAC.
d) wrong
e) All the above was wrong.

You missed:
f) trump's health and senility meant he wouldn't last his term. I suggested about a year and we are close to that point right now.

Where are you?
a) Your claim it wasn't time to pressure the dems to change and that dem owed their votes to Harris ended up losing, wasting your vote.
b) The genocide has killed zionism long term.
c) The dems are realizing AIPAC is toxic and that AOC or a Mamdani is what they need to win.
d) trump has been worse than expected but he's almost finished already
 
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Valcazar

Valcazar

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Frankfooter said:
Prepping some new defences of zionism?
Click to expand...
No.
I'm curious to see your list of my previous defenses, though.

Its genocide but at least the cannibal pedo tribe linked to new the police state has a 'ceasefire', or something like that?
Click to expand...
You did say the ceasefire was a proof that getting Trump in power was a good thing, if I recall.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.
Must be some internal dialogue again.
Click to expand...
Oh, so that's a subconscious admission?
Sad.
 
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Valcazar

Valcazar

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Frankfooter said:
Nope, that wasn't my argument.
a) wrong
b) wrong
c) No, the argument was the dems should have pressured Harris to change her Palestine policy so she could have won. Biden enable the genocide just as much as trump has, Harris campaigned on more of the same. Now zionism is globally hated, the dems are pushing back against AIPAC control. But still would have been better if the dem leadership listened to their voters instead of AIPAC.
d) wrong
e) All the above was wrong.
Click to expand...
Flashed yourself in the mirror, I see.


You missed:
f) trump's health and senility meant he wouldn't last his term. I suggested about a year and we are close to that point right now.
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I did miss this.
I forget the full logic there.

I believe it went that because of his failing health and senility, he would be unable to accomplish anything bad.
Also, when he died, Vance would take over and Vance would be incapable of doing anything bad.

Where are you?
a) Your claim it wasn't time to pressure the dems to change and that dem owed their votes to Harris ended up losing, wasting your vote.
b) The genocide has killed zionism long term.
c) The dems are realizing AIPAC is toxic and that AOC or a Mamdani is what they need to win.
d) trump has been worse than expected but he's almost finished already
Click to expand...
Like I said, you are happy with how things have worked out.

This was the plan, it is all going extremely well, as far as you are concerned.
 
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