CCP or ROC defeated Japan?

40micmic said:

Its actually pretty crazy that the CCP keeps continuing with this facade of defeating the Japanese when it was infact the ROC army and the allies that defeated them.
.............

Click to expand...

During the years of 1937--1938 the size of all of the armies
of the communist party could not amount to more than 2%
of all of the troops of China fighting the Japanese invaders.
That is just my estimate so feel free to correct me. I believe at the
time of the Battle of Shanghai when Chiang Kai-Sek assembled
a coalition of armies of 700,000 the communists did not have
more than 20,000 soldiers.

By the end of the war the communists must have grown its
armies to a size of 1.2 million troops. And that doesn't include
peasants providing logistic support. My estimate is that
chairman Mao had no more than one third of the number of
troops as Chiang at the time Japan surrenedered.

One million plus sounds like a lot but you have to
remember the communist troops were spread over a *vast* area
mostly in territories occupied by Japanese invaders. They
fought with primitive weapons even by the standard of
the most ill-equipped Nationalist divisions. It is a given that
communists were never able to take on the Japanese invaders
in a pitched battle. They killed their enemiese with rifles, grenades,
sabres and sometimes hand.

Also remember even with a bigger than ten-folded increase in military
strength the communist troops were still no match to Chiang Kai-Sek's
armies. The nationalist's military by the end of the war were well eqipped
by the U.S. with tanks, heavy artillery, fighters and bombers. The communists
had none or very little of this.

So how did Mao's dinky armies defeat Chiang Kai-Sek? I
don't have an easy answer. One thing I am sure of is that years
of fighting Japanese invaders in guriella warfare helped with
preparing the communists to fight effectively.

Bad decision making and in-fighting within the KMT.
They had it won but greed and power struggle cost them the leadership.

Basically Chiang lost support of most of his generals. A lot of them switched sides which is when the tides were turned.

bigbiz said:

Bad decision making and in-fighting within the KMT.
They had it won but greed and power struggle cost them the leadership.

Basically Chiang lost support of most of his generals. A lot of them switched sides which is when the tides were turned.

Click to expand...

I doubt a lot of Chiang generals switched sides although a few did
surrender to the communists upon defeat. I think it is more closer to
truth that a lot of them didn't want to fight for Chiang.

oil&gas said:

I doubt a lot of Chiang generals switched sides although a few did
surrender to the communists upon defeat. I think it is more closer to
truth that a lot of them didn't want to fight for Chiang.

Click to expand...

It was just a dire time period.
Hyper inflation, economy going to shit.
Chiang just couldn't get the country out of the situation.

Even if KMT had won it would not have been better, the 2 decades after WW2

Only time could help China get out of the dire situation.

40micmic said:

But the CCP has this delusion that they were the main reason for the victory over the japanese when nothing could be farther from the truth. Xi openly states this and brainwashes its citizens by saying the japanese were defeated due to the leadership of the CCP

Click to expand...

I think you mis heard or mis read what Xi openly stated

He said the "Chinese people" defeated the Japanese in ww2.
He never specified CCP Chinese or KMT Chinese. He just said Chinese people.

LOL

40micmic said:

Sure the ROC was rife with corruption.
Sure CKS was a tyrant.

But the CCP has this delusion that they were the main reason for the victory over the japanese when nothing could be farther from the truth. Xi openly states this and brainwashes its citizens by saying the japanese were defeated due to the leadership of the CCP

Click to expand...

Mainland Chinese reasonably-well informed of basic historical facts
pertinent to China's role in WWII would know pretty much all
major battles in the Sino-Japanese war were fought under the direction of
Chiang Kai-Sek. Myriads of mainland war movies and TV series
since the late 1980s made no bone of the people of China's respect
of the heroism and sacrifice of the Nationalist soldiers in fighting
invasion.

What you call delusion and brainwashing is nothing more
than the usual political propaganda concocted by world
leaders for political gains.

oil&gas said:

Mainland Chinese reasonably-well informed of basic historical facts
pertinent to China's role in WWII would know pretty much all
major battles in the Sino-Japanese war were fought under the direction of
Chiang Kai-Sek. Myriads of mainland war movies and TV series
since the late 1980s made no bone of the people of China's respect
of the heroism and sacrifice of the Nationalist soldiers in fighting
invasion.

What you call delusion and brainwashing is nothing more
than the usual political propaganda concocted by world
leaders for political gains.

no bone of

Click to expand...

Anything good or positive that CCP does, he'll bring back history with whatever the previous generation did that is bad or horrible and tacked it onto todays generation of CCP.

bigbiz said:

.......................
Even if KMT had won it would not have been better, the 2 decades after WW2
........................

Click to expand...

KMT had never truly unified China. Or to put it slightly differently
KMT had unified China only nominally before the war with Japan.
That China were no more unified by KMT than in the pre-war years
after Japan surrendered could be the reason why Chiang Kai-Sek
could only draw on a fraction of the military strength of his armies
to fight the communist rebels.

If KMT had defeated the communists I don't see how they
could manage to establish a stable regime. China would have
broken up again like it was in the era of warlords. It is the fate
of the people of China that it took a brutal and ruthless communist
regime to unify and modernize their country.

oil&gas said:

KMT had never truly unified China. Or to put it slightly differently
KMT had unified China only nominally before the war with Japan.
That China were no more unified by KMT than in the pre-war years
after Japan surrendered could be the reason why Chiang Kai-Sek
could only draw on a fraction of the military strength of his armies
to fight the communist rebels.

If KMT had defeated the communists I don't see how they
could manage to establish a stable regime. China would have
broken up again like it was in the era of warlords. It is the fate
of the people of China that it took a brutal and ruthless communist
regime to unify and modernize their country.

Click to expand...

I can ask myself, would the KMT have done a better job, the 50's, 60's with the famine.
I'd like to say possibly, but fact is we'd never know and as you said, KMT China would've been a fractured country.
They didn't have the backing of the population at the time and it would've been very, very hard.
There might be another civil war, with each of them fighting for resources because of the famine.

KMT made some stupid decisions themselves throughout the war.
Chiang flooded parts of China and killed about half a million with that decision.
So yeah, stupid and bad decisions that kill it's own population is not just limited to the CCP.

bigbiz said:

KMT made some stupid decisions themselves throughout the war.
Chiang flooded parts of China and killed about half a million with that decision.
So yeah, stupid and bad decisions that kill it's own population is not just limited to the CCP.

Click to expand...

Chiang and his KMT also idiotically set Chang-Sa (SP?) ablaze turning
untold number of people in the city homeless. They had naively looked to
Russia's defeat of Napoleon for the clues to defeat Japan. They then
came with the idea burning a major city to the ground like the Russians
setting Moscow on fire in early 19th century is one way to win war
in mid-20th century.

The communists ventured into occupied territories to organize and
protect peasants from Japanese invaders. Chiang's KMT fought the
invaders and then destroyed their own people's livelihood before they
fled.

40micmic said:

Literally specifies the CCP as the main reason for the Japanese defeat.

Click to expand...

Although he did mention CCP but he said it was the Chinese people who defeated Japan.

40micmic said:

Here I will translated it in English for you...

"Under the banner of the Anti-Japanese National United Front advocated by the Communist Party of China..."

The United Front was supposed to be a ROC/CCP alliance...not a mention of the ROC's efforts...implying it was the CCP that took the lead in the battles vs Japan.

Click to expand...

Continue, you did not finished translating that sentence.
You need to read/see the whole picture to understand.
Reading partially or skipping certain words may bring things out of context.

40micmic said:

The Chinese People's War of Resistance Against Japanese Aggression was a great and arduous war. Under the banner of the Anti-Japanese National United Front advocated by the Communist Party of China, the Chinese people fought a powerful enemy with unwavering resolve and built the Great Wall with their flesh and blood, achieving the first complete victory against foreign invasion in modern times.


Whats out of context? Is the ROC army even mentioned? The implication again is that the CCP led the battle which is not even remotely the case.

Click to expand...

To advocate - publicly recommend or support.
(does not mean lead)
In politics, semantics and wording makes a huge difference. So sometimes when someone mis-interpret words, it causes way too much discourse.


To be fair it was CCP that did advocate the United front. (Basically because they were losing big time)
While Japan were invading, KMT wanted to continue and try to finish the CCP. CCP wanted a ceasefire and advocated they deal with Japan (the foreigners) first.
KMT reluctantly agreed. They had the upper-hand and had no reason to change course. That's why in-fighting between the generals under Chiang.
Some agreed with CCPs ceasefire to focus on Japan, others wanted to finish off CCP first.

That would be the US Navy