What would you charge?

[Theredmilf]

With your burger/steak analogy, there is a correlation between product, price and experience. A McD’s burger is a low cost burger with nothing fancy. A burger from the Works costs more but has more to it and the environment inside the restaurant is more of an experience then McD. Go for a steak at the Keg, higher price, but a more fancy meal.
With a provider, finding a correlation between product is more difficult track. But, it would be fair to think that the higher the price point, the higher quality of service.

This is true, there are a lot of intangibles with sex work making it hard to assign a value to an experience with someone. The biggest intangible is of course that we’re all human beings and in that sense invaluable.

When we consider quality of service, what does that mean for you? What type of qualities add value? What makes the difference between feeling like you’re experiencing something that fills your stomach versus something that is elevated and feeds your soul?

 

[ArgoHater]

One can look at the poll as encapsulating a SW's "career". Different stages, different prices.

There are some SW who want to make the most amount of money in the shortest amount of time. Some, unfortunately, work "survival sex" to make rent or buy groceries; or, even more unfortunately, their next fix. These SW would probably be in the "very low price and high volume" category.

If I was just starting out, and was doing this job because I honestly WANT to do it and not NEED to do it, then I would, as mentioned, start at an MP before starting out on my own. So, I guess that would be "market rates". If I wanted to start all on my own, then I would go for lower rates (and maybe higher volume) in order to build a reputation.

This is, of course, going into the business as a conscious and informed decision with lots of research and advice - maybe even on a part-time/side gig option, rather than as a last resort before being evicted.

Then there are the SW who, unfortunately, don't control their pricing or work volume.

As a client, I am wary of a brand-new SW charging above (or much above) market rates without a hint of a review anywhere.

Then there are the unicorns who love sex so much that lower rates and higher volume are PREFERRED because they get so much enjoyment out if it.

 

[Assblaster]

I don't think anyone wants to work 40 hrs a week if they can make the same money or more work 5 to 10 hrs

If I was a SW I'd charge the higher rates and work low volume.

As a client I've learned the hard way that paying higher rates don't means better quality and service. I've had the best services from providers charging market value/low rates and below market value

 

[Assblaster]

This is true, there are a lot of intangibles with sex work making it hard to assign a value to an experience with someone. The biggest intangible is of course that we’re all human beings and in that sense invaluable.

When we consider quality of service, what does that mean for you? What type of qualities add value? What makes the difference between feeling like you’re experiencing something that fills your stomach versus something that is elevated and feeds your soul?

Quality service is someone who is genuine and takes there time with a little bit of sensuality and not just like it's a $$ transaction . If you pay for a HR or HH you should be given the full time paid for not being showing the door after the first shot 10-15 minutes into a session etc.

 

[HudsonB]

This is true, there are a lot of intangibles with sex work making it hard to assign a value to an experience with someone. The biggest intangible is of course that we’re all human beings and in that sense invaluable.

When we consider quality of service, what does that mean for you? What type of qualities add value? What makes the difference between feeling like you’re experiencing something that fills your stomach versus something that is elevated and feeds your soul?

I think quality of service is very subjective to the client. One may want gentle sensuality encounter while another would want a “ride hard, out away wet” encounter, with each willing to pay for one but necessary the other.

 

[Theredmilf]

In both stable/weak economies, I think a balanced business model (Market rates and work steadily) will serve an SP well. It helps maintain a steady cash-flow.
The SW may attract more clientelle if they are seen as relatively affordable and provide good value - that builds good will. Build a healthy client-base to cushion a down-turn.

When the economy tanks and inflation spikes, people think twice on their discretionary spending. Big ticket, short-term gratification luxuries moves down a notch or two on the list of priorites. Business drops away as a result. Using the same business model - If the SW correctly adjusts and tempers their expectations for market conditions, some of the client base may still choose to spend money. Having a large client base increases the odds. The SW works steadily (possibly at a reduced rate) but maintains a steady cash-flow (I hope).

Another advantage of having average or even below average rates is that we can potentially be more selective of who we see. But the flipside of that is, if almost everyone can afford to come see you, it can take quite a lot of work to field the sheer number of messages and to screen out undesirable clients. A disadvantage for clients will be that your provider may be less available or not available at all for you since they might be busy with many other options.

I'm not entirely sure though that economic downturns immediately impact providers at the top tiers. I have observed that gents who can afford these rates are not as impacted by inflation for example and the unfortunate reality is that those who can least afford luxuries already are the ones hit hardest when the economy lags. I have also noted that providers can switch gears when bookings slow down, some will focus on virtual content, some will go on vacation or start another related business, or rebrand with different service offerings.

I hear what you’re saying though and staying in the middle is a safe approach.

 

[FLaPenna]

Ruby you have the experience to be able to answer these questions.

ON AVERAGE, for SWs who charge $500 per hour:

How many days per week do they work ?

How many appointments per week are multiple hour appointments ?

How many appointments per week are single hour appointments ?

How many clients do they see per year? Per week would make no sense because of course vacation, time off, hiatus.

Can you validate that the average annual gross income of an SW in Canada is somewhere between $35,000 and $70,000 ?

 

[boomboom]

I think you’ve made a good point here and one that I’ve read on the forums before. Transparency and honesty seem to impact how fees are perceived regardless of what they are. And I’ve also heard from clients that, especially with extended and experience type dates, they don’t like upcharges for every little thing.

Just curious about your last point. Is your hourly limit driven more by your budget or your perception of what fees should be? Also, do you ever book multiple hours or just one hour?

Thanks for the response, my hourly limit is a combo of both budget & services received from reliable known SP. In the past couple of years, as I've aged, I prefer 90-120min visits but those only with SP's I've seen several times over the years or those who are well reviewed on here ( like yourself, whom I hope 1 day to meet up). I prefer to build a comfort with 1-3 SPs & meet them throughout the year for several years. I still connect with 1 SP from KW area that I met 20yrs ago (sadly not as often as I would like). a couple of others have retired + I now live 1/2 way between GTA & Ottawa, so travelling to connect is a new wrinkle.

Interesting twist on burgers & Steaks. I prefer to dine at the Y & since I love to BBQ & cook, I rarely go to a fast food place except for coffee muffins. I would never go to a low end place to eat, much prefer middle of the road & a few more times, over than once at a high end. From my experience, the taste & enjoyment is as good or better at the middle of the road establishments than the high end places to eat.
Boom

 

[Theredmilf]

Ruby you have the experience to be able to answer these questions.

ON AVERAGE, for SWs who charge $500 per hour:

How many days per week do they work ?

How many appointments per week are multiple hour appointments ?

How many appointments per week are single hour appointments ?

How many clients do they see per year? Per week would make no sense because of course vacation, time off, hiatus.

Can you validate that the average annual gross income of an SW in Canada is somewhere between $35,000 and $70,000 ?

Sadly, we really don't have statistics and it's also hard to answer these questions meaningfully. Even using my own frame of reference, there are large swaths of the industry that are out of my field vision. I really can only comment from my own experience which is limited to my lane.

We’re in an industry where some people are making millions and others are barely scraping by. In order to come up with averages, we would probably have to eliminate the extremes and talk about averages within streams of sex work. Where did you read the 35-70k stat?

Not many share their income level, even among friends, but think it’s safe to say that anyone who owns a home must have a commensurate income. I think it’s also safe to say that it’s possible to enter the middle class as a sex worker charging 300/hr. This doesn’t mean that all or even most are that busy and successful, but based on my own calculations at around 300, it’s at least conceivable.

Looking at higher hourly rates, someone might mainly book multiple hours and has geared their hour so as to promote longer engagements. They may see very few clients simply because one client can book an extended date. I’ve have also seen the opposite, where a lady has a higher than average hourly rate and mainly books one hour but I believe multiple hours are more common.

I really couldn’t give you an average of how many days per week someone might work but I can say that roughly speaking for every hour we book, we have *3 nonbillable hours, so if you take average working hours that leaves the potential for booking up to 52 hours a month or 13 hours per week and I suspect very few are maxing out those hours consistently.

One thing I can say is that I don’t personally know anyone who sees ten clients a day as was proposed in prior threads on TERB. I’m not saying that it’s impossible, I’m sure some do see a high volume of clients, I just personally have not witnessed this. And a lot of the more successful providers I know will generally try to limit themselves to between one and three clients a day when they are taking bookings for their own energy level and peace of mind. Some providers will have sold out tours at this pace, others can go weeks without a booking.

Sorry if this doesn't offer much edification! We really are operating in a fog on many of these issues and so lean heavy into trial and error and rules of thumb to help guide things like rates and policies.

I would love to hear what you as clients perceive as the averages. What do you consider to be low, medium, and high rates? How many clients a day would you consider to be low volume versus high volume. And without being too gauche, what do you think most sex workers earn annually?

 

[FLaPenna]

I was hoping to get some validation from you. Of course there are highs and lows. I was asking for averages to the best of your knowledge. We know that some SWs will see multiple clients a day whereas others perhaps one or two per week etc.

Fair enough if you’re not willing to take a stab at what the averages are.

Let me help.

My sources are the Ontario Human Rights Commission, studies reported in the Globe and Mail and National Post, academic papers available online, support organizations such as Sisterling and Scarlet Alliance, and organizations such as the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform, and the Sex Workers Rights Advocacy Reform Network.

To be clear by SW’s I mean dancers, massages attendants and companions. The average annual income I mentioned includes sporadic as well as full-time work.

if you bear in mind that the cost of living in Ottawa for a single person renting a one bedroom apartment together with groceries, entertainment, transportation, and the whole gamut of other costs is $3,500 per month ($42,000 annually) you are indeed right that on average SW’s in Ottawa are struggling.

SWS earning a donation of $500 per hour would need to book 7 hours per month just to break even. To be able to save and squeak by they would have to book about 14 hours per month. If they work only two or three days a week they would have to see multiple clients each day.

Like you say, unlike other careers, prep time is not paid for and when you factor in ghosting and the like it’s tough out there!

 

[ArgoHater]

Some back-of-the-envelope math is interesting.

If a SW is charging $300/hr, then:
- If she/he/they has/have one appointment per day, over 300 days/year (that's 65 "off-days") then that equals $90,000 gross. A decent income by many standards.
- If she/he/they has/have two appointments per day, over 200 days/year (that's 165 "off-days"), that equals $120,000 gross. Not too shabby, in my books.

Note I said "gross". This does not take into account taxation. This does not take into account all other "business expenses". This is pure income, which to be fair, is mostly cash.

 

[Theredmilf]

I was hoping to get some validation from you. Of course there are highs and lows. I was asking for averages to the best of your knowledge. We know that some SWs will see multiple clients a day whereas others perhaps one or two per week etc.

Fair enough if you’re not willing to take a stab at what the averages are.

Let me help.

My sources are the Ontario Human Rights Commission, studies reported in the Globe and Mail and National Post, academic papers available online, support organizations such as Sisterling and Scarlet Alliance, and organizations such as the Canadian Alliance for Sex Work Law Reform, and the Sex Workers Rights Advocacy Reform Network.

To be clear by SW’s I mean dancers, massages attendants and companions. The average annual income I mentioned includes sporadic as well as full-time work.

if you bear in mind that the cost of living in Ottawa for a single person renting a one bedroom apartment together with groceries, entertainment, transportation, and the whole gamut of other costs is $3,500 per month ($42,000 annually) you are indeed right that on average SW’s in Ottawa are struggling.

SWS earning a donation of $500 per hour would need to book 7 hours per month just to break even. To be able to save and squeak by they would have to book about 14 hours per month. If they work only two or three days a week they would have to see multiple clients each day.

Like you say, unlike other careers, prep time is not paid for and when you factor in ghosting and the like it’s tough out there!

It would be impossible for me to validate the average other people's income. I wish we did have this information for comparison. I can see some are thriving while others struggle. Obviously without the possibility at least of making a decent living, few would enter and stay in the industry of their own volition.

In your example, someone grossing 42k would net just under 27k after expenses and taxes which is below the poverty line before factoring in the equivalent of employee benefits to compare with employed income so I think the break-even point would be higher.

If you have links to these income studies, can you post them? I’m not sure how institutions would gather data considering that most of us do not disclose that we’re sex workers on our tax returns. I’m curious to see.

 

[Theredmilf]

Some back-of-the-envelope math is interesting.

If a SW is charging $300/hr, then:
- If she/he/they has/have one appointment per day, over 300 days/year (that's 65 "off-days") then that equals $90,000 gross. A decent income by many standards.
- If she/he/they has/have two appointments per day, over 200 days/year (that's 165 "off-days"), that equals $120,000 gross. Not too shabby, in my books.

Note I said "gross". This does not take into account taxation. This does not take into account all other "business expenses". This is pure income, which to be fair, is mostly cash.

Unfortunately, you do need to factor 30% for expenses and the requisite benefits that an employee would have to properly compare self-employed income to a salary. So in your first example this SW would earn 60k before taxes which is the equivalent of a 48k salary and 16.5k below the average income in Ottawa.

And in your second example they would be working roughly full-time if you include unbillable hours and earn 84k before taxes which is the equivalent of a 67k salary and just 2k above the average in Ottawa.

 

[FLaPenna]

Some back-of-the-envelope math is interesting.

If a SW is charging $300/hr, then:
- If she/he/they has/have one appointment per day, over 300 days/year (that's 65 "off-days") then that equals $90,000 gross. A decent income by many standards.
- If she/he/they has/have two appointments per day, over 200 days/year (that's 165 "off-days"), that equals $120,000 gross. Not too shabby, in my books.

Note I said "gross". This does not take into account taxation. This does not take into account all other "business expenses". This is pure income, which to be fair, is mostly cash.

Your math is wildly off. Trust me no SW in Ottawa works 300 days a week

And not all appointments are one hour

 

[Theredmilf]

Your math is wildly off. Trust me no SW in Ottawa works 300 days a week

I agree, many of us do put in full-time hours in general labour but it would take herculean efforts to book and see someone 300 days a year. At least remove some days for a menstrual cycle and illness.

 

[FLaPenna]

I would be impossible for me to validate the average other people's income. I wish we did have this information for comparison. I can see some are thriving while others struggle. Obviously without the possibility at least of making a decent living, few would enter and stay in the industry of their own volition.

In your example, someone grossing 42k would net just under 27k after expenses and taxes which is below the poverty line before factoring in the equivalent of employee benefits to compare with employed income so I think the break-even point would be higher.

If you have links to these income studies, can you post them? I’m not sure how institutions would gather data considering that most of us do not disclose that we’re sex workers on our tax returns. I’m curious to see.

it’s based on interviews, polls, reports made by the various organizations and support networks. If you run a search through AI you will easily find all the sources.

 

[KittyCaterina]

To the posters commenting regarding the fact that rates and volume can change during different phases of an SW's career, this is a good observation and true for many including myself.

I started off as low rates/high volume when I was new (in my young spinner days), unknown and much less confident. I was basically in survival sex mode.

I took a break from sexwork for awhile to work on myself, go back to school, work in my chosen career, get a home of my own and returned to sexwork when I felt stable.

Once I began gaining regulars and reviews and establishing a reputation, I raised my rates slightly and began to learn how to screen clients. I also created my website around this time and joined a few boards.

As more reviews came in and my reputation got better and better, I slowly raised my rates and began to take advance bookings only which brought me to low volume status.

Now I am considered medium rates/low volume in bigger cities and higher rates/low volume for Kingston.
I do think the city or town that we work in has a lot to do with our decisions regarding our rates.
I screen more heavily now and can afford to not respond to or turn away potential clients that I'm not getting a good feeling from.
I am considering slightly raising my rates again in July and am quite happy with where I am at in my profession right now.

 

[Peter485]

There is no benefit bring the 2nd cheapest. People looking for cheap will always go to the lowest number. You can be a high revenue 'low cost' provider if you've set up your entire business that way and have a competitive advantage.

Amber's gloryhole niche is a good example of that being done right. When the going rate was $250/hour, she was charging $100/15 minutes.

For everyone else, my experience in business is that the higher your rate, the more your revenue. If you're good, you can always hustle enough to get enough customers to fill your day. The trade-off is that the higher your rate, the more times you hear no in a day.

For nearly everyone, the only real limit to their revenue is how much rejection they can stomach on a consistent basis.

Rejection is tough in any industry. I can imagine it's even more brutal when the guy is looking at pics of your p*ssy online, then texts you back that the swallow isn't worth an extra $50.

Not sure where I would land price wise if I was a SW. Probably would look for a gimmick and go high end.

 

[ArgoHater]

Unfortunately, you do need to factor 30% for expenses and the requisite benefits that an employee would have to properly compare self-employed income to a salary. So in your first example this SW would earn 60k before taxes which is the equivalent of a 48k salary and 16.5k below the average income in Ottawa.

And in your second example they would be working roughly full-time if you include unbillable hours and earn 84k before taxes which is the equivalent of a 67k salary and just 2k above the average in Ottawa.

Remember, this was just some speculative math. Please note that this is all GROSS income - no taxes or business expenses.

That two-appointment, $300/hr times 200 days per year equals 40 5-day weeks per year, or 28.6 7-day weeks per year to GROSS that $120K. You say that the SW would be working "full-time" hours with two one-hour appointments per day. I don't know how many "full-time" jobs where there are 165 days OFF work per year.

What I interpret from you reply is that a SW can have an above-average (in Ottawa) NET income while working "full-time" hours for 40 5-day weeks per year - based on that wild-ass back-of-the-envelope scenario.

 

[FLaPenna]

Remember, this was just some speculative math. Please note that this is all GROSS income - no taxes or business expenses.

That two-appointment, $300/hr times 200 days per year equals 40 5-day weeks per year, or 28.6 7-day weeks per year to GROSS that $120K. You say that the SW would be working "full-time" hours with two one-hour appointments per day. I don't know how many "full-time" jobs where there are 165 days OFF work per year.

What I interpret from you reply is that a SW can have an above-average (in Ottawa) NET income while working "full-time" hours for 40 5-day weeks per year - based on that wild-ass back-of-the-envelope scenario.

Again your math is wildly off. No SWs in Ottawa work 5 days a week for 40 weeks trust me). That’s an extreme corner case.