Pickering Angels

NATO's Defense Dilemma: Rising Costs, Reluctant Nations

Robert Mugabe

Well-known member
Nov 5, 2017
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So far more Russian troops have been killed by NATO supplied
arms than NATO troops/mercenaries if any killed in Ukraine. It
can be said that it is understandable for Russia to perceive NATO
to be a threat.
Ya. I get it. I remember watching the news the night before Russia started their preemptive "defense" Ukrainians sitting in Starbucks sipping cappuccinos after work, plotting the attack. Lucky Russia had their 300,000 troops and heavy armor right on the border to nip it in the bud.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Ya. I get it. I remember watching the news the night before Russia started their preemptive "defense" Ukrainians sitting in Starbucks sipping cappuccinos after work, plotting the attack. Lucky Russia had their 300,000 troops and heavy armor right on the border to nip it in the bud.
You can be a military threat to either side of a conflict irrespective of
whose side of the invader/defender you are on. NATO would have been a
threat to Ukraine had they sent weapons to aid the invader that was Russia
 

nottyboi

Well-known member
May 14, 2008
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I'm not sure why you are ranting about the Poles and the Russians. The Poles haven't been a threat to Russia since the 1600s. The Poles might have had negative attitudes towards the Jews, but it was the Nazis who committed the Holocaust.



Since you have quite a few contradictory thoughts running through your head that seem to have found their way in this response, let me say brutal is one thing I can agree with in describing the Soviets in Poland.

Poles attacked Russia in 1919, perhaps you should used gf
I'm not sure why you are ranting about the Poles and the Russians. The Poles haven't been a threat to Russia since the 1600s. The Poles might have had negative attitudes towards the Jews, but it was the Nazis who committed the Holocaust.



Since you have quite a few contradictory thoughts running through your head that seem to have found their way in this response, let me say brutal is one thing I can agree with in describing the Soviets in Poland.
Poles attacked Russia in 1919, perhaps you should used google once in a while. So yes there were axes to grind. Furthermore the Poles refused to allow the USSR to assist it in providing aid to the Yugoslave particpants. The Polish involvment with the Holocaust was not minor, which is why the most lethal death camp was on their soil. 90% of the jews in poland were killed. The thoughts are not contradictory, you saying so only indicates you are either denying the linkage or its not within your intellect to grasp them. Europe is full of grinding axes. WIth the shrill rethoric of Poland against Russia over Katyn while Germany killed orders of magnitude more. you can see the Poles (or the Polish elite) hold deep hatred for Russia. Now they are sending weapons to kill Russians thinking it will have no consequences. They never learn.
 

WyattEarp

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
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China is in trouble? I wish Canada was in that much trouble,

GDP growth 2024:

US 2.2%

Canada. 2,4%

China. 4.5 %

USA destroyed the industry of Germany by stopping cheap energy from Russia. Even Trump said that.

Germany 0.8%
It seems like you edited your post. China is not growing 4.5%. The government data is not reliable. The government is frantically spending money but most of it winds up in vastly redundant capital investment and infrastructure.

It's hard to explain to people who want to believe headlines. Similar to Canada, China has not been improving its productivity which is the only reliable indicator of an economy's ability to grow beyond temporary injections of spending.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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It seems like you edited your post. China is not growing 4.5%. The government data is not reliable. The government is frantically spending money but most of it winds up in vastly redundant capital investment and infrastructure.

It's hard to explain to people who want to believe headlines. Similar to Canada, China has not been improving its productivity which is the only reliable indicator of an economy's ability to grow beyond temporary injections of spending.
Trump is busy firing scientists and medical workers.

 

WyattEarp

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
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Poles attacked Russia in 1919, perhaps you should used gf

Poles attacked Russia in 1919, perhaps you should used google once in a while. So yes there were axes to grind. Furthermore the Poles refused to allow the USSR to assist it in providing aid to the Yugoslave particpants. The Polish involvment with the Holocaust was not minor, which is why the most lethal death camp was on their soil. 90% of the jews in poland were killed. The thoughts are not contradictory, you saying so only indicates you are either denying the linkage or its not within your intellect to grasp them. Europe is full of grinding axes. WIth the shrill rethoric of Poland against Russia over Katyn while Germany killed orders of magnitude more. you can see the Poles (or the Polish elite) hold deep hatred for Russia. Now they are sending weapons to kill Russians thinking it will have no consequences. They never learn.
The Poles didn't attack Russia. They attacked the outer boundaries of the Czarist Empire that the Soviets were intent on maintaining. So your knowledge of history is either basic or you are simply manipulating history to spread propaganda.

Anyone can paint a picture of how gray history is, but none of what you are saying supports the idea that the Russians (Soviets) saved Poland. At a minimum, the Soviet presence in Poland after WW2 was incidental to defeating the Nazis. At its worst, the Soviets were intent on expanding the boundaries of the Soviet sphere.

I'm guessing you're a Russophile who spreads disinformation here and elsewhere blaming the Ukrainians for the invasion.
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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It seems like you edited your post. China is not growing 4.5%. The government data is not reliable. The government is frantically spending money but most of it winds up in vastly redundant capital investment and infrastructure.

It's hard to explain to people who want to believe headlines. Similar to Canada, China has not been improving its productivity which is the only reliable indicator of an economy's ability to grow beyond temporary injections of spending.
You are claiming that the International Monetary Fund is a propaganda arm of China???

Give it a rest.
 

WyattEarp

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
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You are claiming that the International Monetary Fund is a propaganda arm of China???

Give it a rest.
The IMF merely reports the data given to them by the Chinese government. They do not provide any analysis regarding the quality of the data. I assure you there are economists, investment bank analysts, Western government agencies that might know more about the Chinese economy than even Beijing. They look at various independent data points to form what is called a mosaic of economic activity. Beijing only wants to hear what it wants to hear and the top leaders are isolated from negative feedback.

You've been on these pages championing China for a few years. This even if the agency of the Taiwanese and Hongkongers is defended by members.
 
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nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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The Poles didn't attack Russia. They attacked the outer boundaries of the Czarist Empire that the Soviets were intent on maintaining. So your knowledge of history is either basic or you are simply manipulating history to spread propaganda.

Anyone can paint a picture of how gray history is, but none of what you are saying supports the idea that the Russians (Soviets) saved Poland. At a minimum, the Soviet presence in Poland after WW2 was incidental to defeating the Nazis. At its worst, the Soviets were intent on expanding the boundaries of the Soviet sphere.

I'm guessing you're a Russophile who spreads disinformation here and elsewhere blaming the Ukrainians for the invasion.
Ohh the outer reaches of the Tsarist empire had NOTHING to do with Russia lol. Govts come and go, but the grinding axes remain the same. Sure to get to Germany Russia had to clear out Poland. But lets say you were head of the Russian general staff, and that was the goal. Would it be less risky to save the Polish resistance then move on to Germany leaving an armed contingent of nationalists in your rear...or... let the Germans liquidate them and then finish off the Germans who have spent blood and ammo defeating the Poles. Emotions aside what is the better military plan?
 

WyattEarp

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May 17, 2017
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Ohh the outer reaches of the Tsarist empire had NOTHING to do with Russia lol. Govts come and go, but the grinding axes remain the same. Sure to get to Germany Russia has to clear out Poland. But lets say you were head of the Russian general staff, and that was the goal. Would it be less risky to save the Polish resistance then move on to Germany leaving an armed contingent of nationalists in your rear...or... let the Germans liquidate them and then finish off the Germans who have spent blood and ammo defeating the Poles. Emotions aside what is the better military plan?
You said "the Russians RESCUED the Poles from the Nazis". It's useful to replay what members posted.
 
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danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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The IMF merely reports the data given to them by the Chinese government. They do not provide any analysis regarding the quality of the data. I assure you there are economists, investment bank analysts, Western government agencies that might know more about the Chinese economy than even Beijing. They look at various independent data points to form what is called a mosaic of economic activity. Beijing only wants to hear what it wants to hear and the top leaders are isolated from negative feedback.

You've been on these pages championing China for a few years. This even if the agency of the Taiwanese and Hongkongers is defended by members.
This is the reason it in general is unbearable to participate in a discussion in Terb's political forum: while many members are participating discussions in good faith, sooner or later any discussion is high jacked by someone like LaRue or WyattEarp, who disregards any and all facts in favour of ideological opinions.
 
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WyattEarp

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This is the reason it in general is unbearable to participate in a discussion in Terb's political forum: while many members are participating discussions in good faith, sooner or later any discussion is high jacked by someone like LaRue or WyattEarp, who disregards any and all facts in favour of ideological opinions.
I'm sorry bud for introducing some reality. Similar to nottyboi and his Russia deal, you have some type of affinity for China. I think its misplaced, but that's your deal.

We went through this b.s. a few years ago when a few select members were vehemently arguing that the Wuhan wet market had to be the source of COVID based on the data. It didn't matter to them that the Chinese govt. was providing the source data and China would do anything it could to redirect attention from the Wuhan Lab.

Per Reuters:
"China's National Bureau of Statistics and the State Council Information Office, which handles media queries, did not immediately respond to questions about doubts over official data.

'It seems dubious that China precisely hit its growth target for 2024 at a time when the economy continues to face tepid domestic demand, persistent deflationary pressures, and flailing property and equity markets,' said Eswar Prasad, trade policy professor at Cornell University and a former China director at the International Monetary Fund."
(There's that IMF that you seem to be placing faith in.}
 
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nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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You said "the Russians RESCUED the Poles from the Nazis". It's useful to replay what members posted.
What was the likelyhood the Poles could have ejected the NAZIS on their own? 🤣👍 They were rescued by necessity by the USSR. (and I mean the nation, not the resistance) Due to history, a weak and defeated Poland was in the USSRs interest.
 

WyattEarp

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May 17, 2017
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What was the likelyhood the Poles could have ejected the NAZIS on their own? 🤣👍 They were rescued by necessity by the USSR.
Thank God for the Soviet Union! That declaration has a certain irony to it....don't ya think?
 

nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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The IMF merely reports the data given to them by the Chinese government. They do not provide any analysis regarding the quality of the data. I assure you there are economists, investment bank analysts, Western government agencies that might know more about the Chinese economy than even Beijing. They look at various independent data points to form what is called a mosaic of economic activity. Beijing only wants to hear what it wants to hear and the top leaders are isolated from negative feedback.

You've been on these pages championing China for a few years. This even if the agency of the Taiwanese and Hongkongers is defended by members.
I don't think the IMF is that unsophisticated. They can review balance of trade data, imports of raw materials and generally use this to spot any major holes reported by the Chinese govt. If you think Beijing does not have spies all over that country, and similarly does not get data from banks payroll, tax revenues to spot any anaomalies, then you are kidding yourself. China is a somewhat centerally managed economy, they have learned from the failures of communism it cannot be done by setting quotas. Its a very sophisticated manangement model with the most advanced fintech and economic understanding incorporated into managing the beast.
 

nottyboi

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May 14, 2008
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Thank God for the Soviet Union! That declaration has a certain irony to it....don't ya think?
Considering they caused about 75% of the German casualties yes I say thank god. Do you realize just how much longer the war would have continued and how many more Western and American allies would have been killed if the USSR either lost the war or remained neutral?👍
 

WyattEarp

Well-known member
May 17, 2017
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China is a somewhat centerally managed economy, they have learned from the failures of communism it cannot be done by setting quotas.
Beijing sets growth targets. The Provinces are the ones who do crazy things to meet those goals, protect state owned enterprises and enrich government officials. State owned enterprises are so engrained into the Chinese system, economists just call them SOEs for shorthand.

Country economics doesn't work by setting targets and state owned enterprises have been demonstrated to be generally ineffectual. There are a few members who think an authoritarian government can simply mandate growth by decree because they can control much of the economic system. It doesn't work that way. It has never worked the way. It has nothing to do with forcing a Western economic model on to the Chinese or any thoughts like that.
 
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