Is there an advantage in mongering in Toronto as opposed to in the US ?

[TajonBramptonBuchanan]

Canada has the Nordic model so the John still gets into trouble, right ?
As far as I know there are still raids in Ontario at massage parlors, and LE still do stings.

What am I missing? Why is it safer to monger in Toronto as opposed to the US?

 

[TajonBramptonBuchanan]

No unless you use shady websites and they are advertising minors, which in most cases turns out to be a sting. Otherwise no issues. Police have bigger fish to fry.

In the US everything is illegal, so you are of course in more danger.

So if I got a massage parlour like Flirt Spa I shouldn't even be concerned about LE carrying out a raid ?

That's reassuring. Having lived in the US this happens all the time in America.

 

[jalimon]

In Canada LE officers are regular clients

Nothing more to add. Just a text message is what you are from a great fantasy.

In the US you need 5 layers of validation before an SP will see you...

 

[kherg007]

It's night and day Canada v USA. ("Like chalk and cheese" as we'd say in the old country).
Never have nor will do anything like this in USA. Ever.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Canada has the Nordic model so the John still gets into trouble, right ?
As far as I know there are still raids in Ontario at massage parlors, and LE still do stings.
What am I missing? Why is it safer to monger in Toronto as opposed to the US?

There are lots of stings in the US. Any form of sex for money is illegal, and mandatory fines and jail on the first offense if a diversion program is not available. Frequent stings under the excuse of child trafficking, but probably 90% are consenting adults in hotels etc.

C36 in Canada has been successfully challenged several times, and the Crown, as far as I can tell, has not appealed. Vancouver, Montreal and Toronto police issued press releases when C36 first went into effect, stating no change in enforcement.

The cases have been from smaller, more conservative communities, including an escort agency. The agency won.

The argument is the same as when the old law was overturned, where agencies (bawdy houses/living of avals) and incalls were illegal, but outcalls were legal. The Superior Court judge wrote one of the longest opinions of any judge discrediting the anti-groups, including "friends of the court" briefs from US anti-sex organizations. The key is under your Charter of Rights and Freedoms; "safety of persons" is important.

This is also why Sauga (Mississauga) has more liberal ordinances regarding massage and strip clubs than Toronto, thanks to long-serving ex-mayor Hazel. She was mayor until she was at or near 90 years old but died a few years ago. Ontario also has a more liberal ABC Commission vs. B.C., where strip clubs are basically no-contact due to ABC liquor laws.

Sidenote: Brampton passed a law many years ago that attendants in massage parlors could not be nude. Courts overturned it since there is no ordinance or Federal criminal law making nudity illegal in a private place. Mayor Hazel had no problem with nude reverse massage etc., which I enjoyed so much at Allure, etc.

Judges have determined it is safer to have sexwork legal vs underground and illegal. So, police in major cities go after "real" crimes like underage or forced sex trafficking or those illegally in Canada.

A few years ago, Peel area police (sauga) stopped an agency escort in my hotel parking lot who was coming to see me. Their ONLY interest was whether she was an adult and doing it voluntarily. She assured them she was, and all was fine. They are not interested in private consenting adults. This is very different from the frequent stings in the US.

All the agencies were driven out of Phoenix since they were charged with criminal enterprise felonies, and every amount of money traced was a separate money laundering charge. There are frequent national coordinated stings, which were started years ago by the Cook County IL sheriff.

Mrs. McCain (as in famous Senator McCain, now deceased, who Trump called a disgrace since he was captured and prisoner for 5 years in the Vietnam war) led the charge in getting laws changed in Phoenix. All the local boards shut down since a crime to encourage or assist prostitution since, of course, no woman in their right mind would voluntarily choose sexwork unless abused or forced by a pimp. I had a private list of about 1000 folks, and we had parties at our "Sky High Condo" and Toys for Tots parties with the now-deceased famous Madam Rose. There were also other good local boards, we all shut down with the new law (pre-FOSTA national law)

I attended many court cases and heard "Donald Advicements" of the potential of about 100 years in prison if guilty on all charges and didn't take a plea. Potential sentences are worse than most murders.

I followed hundreds of cases, and the judge, at a break, mentioned she had missed me in the visitor section when I was gone for a few weeks in the long hearings and trial for the great about 30 women in the raid of the Phoenix Goddess Temple. As part of their spirituality, they did hand jobs—mostly older women. The founder refused to take a plea and, against my discussion with her, insisted on her religious rights but was convicted but only went to prison for 5 years, with credit for time served of about 3 years while waiting for trial. All the many charges ran concurrently so she didn't get the maximum sentence. She appealed a few times and, of course, lost on each appeal. ALmost every case takes a plea deal for felonies. Simple prostitution has a mandatory 15 days in jail on first offense and longer on more convictions.

I was also on the legal committee for a Phoenix swing club and the challenge to the California prostitution law on both appeals to the 9th Circuit. Both lost, and the swing club shut down since prostitution is illegal in Phoenix, and the California prostitution law stands. If successful, it could have invalidated all state prostitution laws, which are similar to California's (our laws are mostly state, not Federal, as in Canada regarding most crimes).

We do not have your "safety of persons" provision in our constitution like Canada does in your Charter.:

 

[xix]

@Dave in Phoenix why doesn't the people from Phoenix go across the border (Mexico) to have some fun?

Or some farm where it is surrounded by trees and hills and no one can peak in. One guy told me they did this in Montreal back in the 70's.

 

[Patron]

To add a bit of perspective to this, you have to look at who, what, and when gets attacked in the U.S.

Things aren‘t that much different between most large cities in the U.S. and Canada, other than the fact that Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver are okay with agencies. Most cities in the U.S. hate agencies, and the federal government heavily attacks them if they operate across state lines.

For starters, look at how secretive Terb is about full-service massage parlors with a fixed location. Very smart. Now consider trying to have a goddamn “sex church” in Toronto. Pretty sure that would not only go beyond the c-36 prioritization policy, but would piss off so many people that the policy would be declared null and void.

Uncovering the Truth Behind This ‘Sex Church’ | The Phoenix Goddess Temple claimed to be a neo-tantric church, offering ‘seekers’ healing through sensual touch. But one day, the temple unknowingly... | By VICE | Facebook

The Phoenix Goddess Temple claimed to be a neo-tantric church, offering ‘seekers’ healing through sensual touch. But one day, the temple unknowingly...

www.facebook.com

If you insist on anything organized in the U.S. in terms of sex work, you are a target. Stay away from massage parlors and sex churches. But that isn’t a large part of the current scene.

Most all laws regarding sex work are state and local. For the part of the scene that is ignored by U.S. law enforcement, you are safe in most large U.S. cities. But certainly not in Phoenix, Arizona. They go after sex work like no other city. I don’t even like having an erection there. I connect in the airport, which is incredibly named after a conservative politician that LBJ famously said “In Your Guys, You Know He Is Nuts”, and go on to somewhere sane. One of the ladies I see in Las Vegas lives there but goes to Vegas to work. She doesn’t even like to see local customers there, preferring that they fly to Vegas. Canada can thank god it doesn’t have a city like Phoenix, Arizona. But don’t believe that Phoenix Arizona represents everywhere in the U.S..

U.S. law enforcement, both federal and state, goes after anything organized and inexpensive. They take out fake sting ads on classified advertisement sites like Skip The Games. Here is a brilliant idea. Don’t use Skip The Games.

U.S. law enforcement goes after low cost providers who don’t screen customers because they argue those ladies are likely associated with drugs and violence. There is unfortunately some validity to that. Since those are the providers that law enforcement focuses on, here is a brilliant idea : Don’t see them. You won’t be in the flophouses they use for incall with other ladies when there is a raid.

So what does U.S. law enforcement leave alone? Independent providers who screen and have their own website or take out ads in higher-cost venues like Tryst. In many large cities, small agencies that are really independents sharing resources are ignored by law enforcement. That would not include Asian agencies, particularly if they advertise BBFS.

This means that you pay a hell of a lot of money in the U.S. to see a provider who is safe, and you have to provide screening information. But in that scenario, this activity is done safely by many thousands of providers in the U.S., and many more thousands of Johns. Expect to pay $400 - $700 an hour to be safe, but you can be safe. Not of interest to anyone with continuous access to Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver.

But I think that part of the U.S. market should be acknowledged, which really isn’t that much different than the Toronto independent market, where many ladies want screening information for their safety. Screening is certainly partially for the safety of U.S. providers, in addition to keeping the police out of the picture. In fairness to U.S. providers, they have trade organizations that have worked with law enforcement and District Attorneys behind the scenes to create a structure where they can work. There are several large cities such as NYC where the District Attorney has announced non-prosecution policies for consenting adult providers, but not Johns. Putting those cities in a position much like Toronto. No such policy will ever exist in Phoenix, however.

The U.S. will never accept “legal” sex work (other than clinical services in rural Nevada) or accept anything organized. Most of us accepted that long ago and work within what is acceptable, and where it is acceptable.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

To add a bit of perspective to this, you have to look at who, what, and when gets attacked in the U.S.

Very good points. A few comments;

Phoenix police do go after high end escorts in nice hotels. It is easy to make false IDs as always used for undercover and a false work number to a cop friend to verify their employment on a special number etc. LE likes hotels since they will set up the bust team in a connecting room as soon as the "deal is made".

It is not just Phoneix that is hit. Subscribe to the "prostitution" topic on Google and get weekly updates, and you will read about 15-20 busts all over the US, often massage parlors but also hotel stings. Sometimes, there are 50 arrests in one city where the national sting is going on that started decades ago with the Cook Cty Sheirff. Also, at Superbowls and major events, Phoenix is not usually in the reports.

It use to be easy to track Phoenix cases since they were are booked into Madison Jail run by the Sheriff even if Phx PD arrests. I would follow many cases from the booking reports going to the Courthouse nearby (regional branch) to get on their case computer and read all the minute entries, court proceedings etc). But now, it is not as easy to follow cases, which may be why not seen on Google reports as much, and recent police chiefs seem not to have spare time to go after prostitution cases like they used to.

We also have a law that any escort has to be registered and licensed as an "escort." I monitor a separate Scottsdale arrest blog and see quite a few arrests for escorting without a license in the early days. Last I heard, no one has done the licensing with their number required on all ads. I have never seen a legal ad with their license number. No escorts want their real name listed in a public license record. But our conservative city leaders followed the Christian group's model law to require licenses.

I also get copies of all the 9th circuit appeals cases that have prostitution in them. ALmost no convictions are reversed but inmates have lots of time on their hands to file appeals or legal aid attorneys that help inmates. Some cases are immigration cases not allowed due to a prior sex-related conviction. Some appeals are wild but the Court goes into long discussion of case and law. Many are appealing forced sex trafficking cases which they have no chance of reversing on appeal.

On the positive side if you are smart you do not get caught since you have to offer money for a sex act. Undercovers are quite good to get you to agree to something but I have seen cases tossed by a judge where the only offer was for companionship if no sex was suggested. I have seen female decoys who have a wedding ring on pretend they are underaged which is a very serious felony. They say something like can you bring me some cigs as I am not old enough to get and the dumb guy agrees and winds up with a child felony. A high level exec of a public company in Coloradwound up caught as I recall the decoy said she was age 17 when asked. Arizona is only one of six states where the age of consent is 18. Most states are younger like 16 I believe in Colordo, some are 15 so the CA exec had no clue she was legally underaged in AZ.

 

[Patron]

Yes, no shortage of arrests in hotels. When L.E. runs a sting ad, they have the customers come to a hotel. And when an escort doesn’t screen, when law enforcement makes an appointment with her (because she didn’t screen), they have her come to their hotel.

Of course, John’s screen too. We book ladies with a long advertising and usually a solid review history with reviews by those with more than one review.

The key for both parties is never being in a room where one party is a cop. Once that happens, it is over.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

@Dave in Phoenix why doesn't the people from phenix go across the border (Mexico) to have some fun?

I went to Nogales long ago, but it was not that good for clubs. I wouldn't go back.

TJ is just a short flight and Uber from San Diego. I have seriously monitored reviews of it. I like the interaction I can have in clubs like Hong Kong and some others but it seems since I am not a fan of intercourse or oral sex either way, I can do most of what I like that is more sensual to me without the room and would want to stay at a nicer hotel and have chosen some options if I ever go. On the other hand, with the right gal (like the escort I was just with), going to a room could be more pleasurable than all the stuff you can do on the floor- I mean the floor dance in chairs, not lying on the floor

But you have to get to the hotel if not one connected to the strip club, which is noisy and not that nice. Maybe like Hotel Ticuan. I take an expensive laptop and lots of stuff to stash and not get stolen.

On the negative side. Lots of police corruption will think they saw you wink or something made up with a drug dealer and arrest you unless you give them all your money. Some taxis are in cahoots with police and will be pulled over, claiming they say you did something (whether you did or not) and get all your money. They even know to look in your shoes or other typical hiding spots.

The main streets are relatively safe other than the police, as the Mexican gangs control the orte red zone and clubs and want streets to be safe for business at the strip clubs. Never go to a back ally with a street hooker, or you will most likely be robbed or beaten. Ubers are safer, and Hong Kong has a limo service from both ped entrances, but one is sometimes closed. And have to avoid the thousands of migrants trying to get into the US.

Besides safety, I do not know any Spanish, so I would have to use Google Translate most of the time, which would be a nuisance. I have a hard time with Spanish accents even if speaking English.

While the dancers are great, far less expensive, and there is a huge selection of beautiful women, you also have to put up with the nagging mesero (waiter) who keeps wanting to be tipped for bringing a wonderful gal and all the silly tipping to so many people.

I have decided that while it is more expensive and a long airline trip, Canada is more my style and more practical than Mexico's negatives.

However, it might be interesting to have a younger, strong travel companion—kind of like a bodyguard/translator who shares my interests. I am primarily concerned about the physical dangers of being robbed. I am on a board where this is reported more frequently than I am comfortable.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

Uncovering the Truth Behind This ‘Sex Church’ | The Phoenix Goddess Temple claimed to be a neo-tantric church, offering ‘seekers’ healing through sensual touch. But one day, the temple unknowingly... | By VICE | Facebook

The Phoenix Goddess Temple claimed to be a neo-tantric church, offering ‘seekers’ healing through sensual touch. But one day, the temple unknowingly...

www.facebook.com

The video brought back memories. It was very good, and I think they were the ones who contacted me on background for the video.

I checked to see myself on the defense side, but I think the court video was from one of the 33 days I wasn't there. The case took about 3 years to come to trial, with many hearings before, most of which I attended; Tracy fired her court-appointed lawyer and represented herself - a really bad idea. I thought the judge was patient with her long sermons and even singing sometimes. The jury convicted her within about 2 hours, very fast.

Her bail was initially set at $1 million before being reduced, and a friend had to put up his car for the bonding company. She had almost no money, as she passed on most of the donations to the workers, many of whom were financially disadvantaged. Before being bailed out, she was in jail for a year or so before trial.

The facts are accurate, and while I have no interest in their spiritual beliefs, I think it should be legal.

I had lunch with Dennis Hof, who testified that the Temple was no way to run a brothel in her defense. He owned seven legal brothels in Nevada and died a few years ago. He was very nice, although I would never go to his Nevada brothels. He grew up in the Phoenix area.

At the same lunch was Ted McIlvenna, the founder and President of the Institute for the Advanced Study of Sexuality in San Francisco, as well as a huge sexual art museum in Las Vegas.

Ted testified for Tracy, and I was standing next to him at a break in the hall when he got the call from the US military being recalled and sending a plane to get him out of Phoenix after he testified how he had arranged prostitutes from Israel to serve US Navy crews. He told me he had mentioned this to the prosecutors who interviewed him pre-trial, and they didn't object since it was relevant to him being an expert witness for the defense, as I recall.

 

[Patron]

Here are some examples of areas of the U.S. where substantial progress has been made in the last few years, particularly with respect to the part of the scene that is out of the public eye.

There used to be tens of thousands of prostitution arrests annually in NYC. Now? About 100.

Lawmakers now have to figure out the next era in prostitution laws.

gothamist.com

New Orleans police made one prostitution arrest last year. Here's why.

Even before he shot another pimp dead outside a French Quarter strip club, Christopher White was having a bad night.

www.nola.com

And despite the alarmist headline, the details are better.

https://documentedny.com/2023/03/20/sex-workers-decriminalization-nyc-massage-parlors-reform/

“I strongly condemn the news that the Queens District Attorney has been prosecuting sex workers in Queens at a higher rate than all of the other DAs in New York City, which is what she said she would not do when she ran for office,” she said. “I ask her to consider the real harm these cases cause to our fellow Queens community members.”

Although Katz has continued to prosecute prostitution cases despite promising not to, she has not been alone in breaking her promise. The Manhattan DA as well as the Brooklyn DA had also promised to longer prosecute prostitution cases in 2021.

The Manhattan DA, Alvin Bragg, has been the only DA to keep his promise by declining to prosecute all 12 prostitution arrests made in 2022. The Brooklyn DA, Eric Gonzalez, has mostly kept his promise. In 2022, the Brooklyn DA declined to prosecute eight of the 17 prostitution arrests made that year. One was dismissed with an ACD and one was dismissed outright. The rest are still pending”.

While New York City is safer for the activity than at any time since the reign of Giuliani, the same can’t be said for many other parts of the U.S., particularly counties in central Florida with redneck sherrifs.

 

[mandrill]

Canada has the Nordic model so the John still gets into trouble, right ?
As far as I know there are still raids in Ontario at massage parlors, and LE still do stings.

What am I missing? Why is it safer to monger in Toronto as opposed to the US?

The local cops have a policy to only bust where there are underaged girls or complaints the girls are being drugged or forcibly pimped against their will.

 

[mandrill]

The U.S. will never accept “legal” sex work (other than clinical services in rural Nevada) or accept anything organized. Most of us accepted that long ago and work within what is acceptable, and where it is acceptable.

Question: - I get it that the South and small town North is fucked in the head by dumbass Christian go-to-church bullshit and will never accept stuff the remainder of the Western world thinks is now normal - i.e. abortion and gay marriage and prostitution.

But why couldn't large city dominated states like NY, CA and IL simply legalize prostitution or take the halfway step of bringing in the Nordic model??

 

[Patron]

It would be done at the state level, and it did happen in Maine. Incidentally sometimes people think of Nevada’s legal but regulated system in terms of legality. That state statute has the legal but regulated statewide but the state law is turned off automatically in counties with a specified population level and other counties are allowed to turn it off via a vote.

Maine: The First State in the US to Adopt the Nordic Model

Connaître, comprendre, combattre l'exploitation sexuelle - la Fondation Scelles estime que toute personne doit pouvoir vivre sans avoir recours à la prostitution.

www.fondationscelles.org

Rhode Island technically decriminalized indoor prostitution for several years and it was publicly known until it was fixed years later.

New Hampshire or Vermont came within a vote or two of decriminalization, but it didn’t quite pass.

And several localities, via the announcements of prioritization policies regarding prosecutions, have effectively adopted the Nordic Model. The most notable was of course NYC, but it occurred in several other major cities and a county in Michigan.

So there is perhaps some slow and steady progress.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

But why couldn't large city dominated states like NY, CA and IL simply legalize prostitution or take the halfway step of bringing in the Nordic model??

Because most states have anti-prostitution laws in addition to cities. Long ago a city in CA tried (San Fran? not sure) but never got off the ground since the argument was the State could just come in to enforce.

The CA state prostitution statute was challenged about 5 years or so ago. The leader of the group met with escorts at my home in Phoenix to discuss this. The lower court rejected it and we fought it with some great briefs at the 9th Circuit and lost. The state legislatures have to change laws there is no Federal challenge which was closed at least in the 9th Circuit district.

Maybe 10 years ago, there was an ambitious group in CA I had discussion with and supported that met with new CA legislators trying to convince them how having sexwork illegal increases risk and harm for everyone (as Canada Supreme Court agreed following landmark Ontario case. In response we/you got C36). The typical reaction from CA new legislators was if they stood behind prostitution, they would be surely voted out of office.

In my view I see a legitimate need to eliminate the public nuisance of street hookers, usually tied into drugs, pimps etc. I think a well-drafted proposal only decrim in private consenting adults would have more public support, but I doubt we have enough lawmaker's support to get it passed, at least in our lifetimes, in the US.

 

[mandrill]

Because most states have anti-prostitution laws in addition to cities. Long ago a city in CA tried (San Fran? not sure) but never got off the ground since the argument was the State could just come in to enforce.

The CA state prostitution statute was challenged about 5 years or so ago. The leader of the group met with escorts at my home in Phoenix to discuss this. The lower court rejected it and we fought it with some great briefs at the 9th Circuit and lost. The state legislatures have to change laws there is no Federal challenge which was closed at least in the 9th Circuit district.

Maybe 10 years ago, there was an ambitious group in CA I had discussion with and supported that met with new CA legislators trying to convince them how having sexwork illegal increases risk and harm for everyone (as Canada Supreme Court agreed following landmark Ontario case. In response we/you got C36). The typical reaction from CA new legislators was if they stood behind prostitution, they would be surely voted out of office.

In my view I see a legitimate need to eliminate the public nuisance of street hookers, usually tied into drugs, pimps etc. I think a well-drafted proposal only decrim in private consenting adults would have more public support, but I doubt we have enough lawmaker's support to get it passed, at least in our lifetimes, in the US.

What I meant was: - Couldn't a state that is dominated by 1 large city - i.e. IL or NY - simply force legalization through the state legislature???

In Canada, the cities return MPP's who are generally far more liberal than the small town ridings. In any electoral map of either the US or Canada, the cities are liberal and the rural areas are right wing and dumb.

 

[mandrill]

Because most states have anti-prostitution laws in addition to cities. Long ago a city in CA tried (San Fran? not sure) but never got off the ground since the argument was the State could just come in to enforce.

The CA state prostitution statute was challenged about 5 years or so ago. The leader of the group met with escorts at my home in Phoenix to discuss this. The lower court rejected it and we fought it with some great briefs at the 9th Circuit and lost. The state legislatures have to change laws there is no Federal challenge which was closed at least in the 9th Circuit district.

Maybe 10 years ago, there was an ambitious group in CA I had discussion with and supported that met with new CA legislators trying to convince them how having sexwork illegal increases risk and harm for everyone (as Canada Supreme Court agreed following landmark Ontario case. In response we/you got C36). The typical reaction from CA new legislators was if they stood behind prostitution, they would be surely voted out of office.

In my view I see a legitimate need to eliminate the public nuisance of street hookers, usually tied into drugs, pimps etc. I think a well-drafted proposal only decrim in private consenting adults would have more public support, but I doubt we have enough lawmaker's support to get it passed, at least in our lifetimes, in the US.

In Canada, street prostitution is long extinct because - with decriminalization - girls work out of motels and put ads on line. So the "street nuisance" argument is long dead up here.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

What I meant was: - Couldn't a state that is dominated by 1 large city - i.e. IL or NY - simply force legalization through the state legislature???

In Canada, the cities return MPPs who are generally far more liberal than the small-town ridings. In any electoral map of either the US or Canada, the cities are liberal and the rural areas are right wing and dumb.

Agreed on the last part! I don't think liberals in major US cities are dominant enough. Many Christian liberals would oppose or not vote for someone with a positive sexwork view on false biblical grounds (only the Temple prostitutes worshiping the fertility gods was wrong due to idolatry; nothing wrong with the "common prostitute").

Further, not all liberals would be for decriminalization. In the US, they tend to want to regulate everything so that it might be more like the legal brothels in Nevada. You have to negotiate for each act, and it is very expensive. But for the wealthy or desperate, it fulfills a need. By the way, Dennis Huf was quite nice. I had lunch with him. He grew up in the Phoenix area and testified for the defense in the Phoenix Goddess Temple case. Sadly, he is now deceased.

 

[Dave in Phoenix]

In Canada, street prostitution is long extinct because - with decriminalization - girls work out of motels and put ads on line. So the "street nuisance" argument is long dead up here.

Interesting. I had thought Maggies was more for street workers, and the sexwork groups that tried to change the law did not separate public from private in their attempts from the reports I have read. So it may be a negative public perception of the nuisance of the streets is an issue whether true or not.

BTW I hope Maggies has recovered from the fire about a year ago that destroyed their place and thousands of safe sex and many supplies.
https://globalnews.ca/news/9964678/...ization-maggies-toronto-to-temporarily-close/
I see they are active on Facebook, etc, and their website does not mention the fire when all their Board resigned about a year ago.