Climate Change

JohnLarue

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Jan 19, 2005
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Do some basic research and try to understand the difference between forcing and feedback effects on the climate, kirk.
Again, this is part of the basics.
You can understand it if you try.
you do not have the first loose clue about what you blither about


Decoupling CO2 from Climate Change Michael Nelson1, David B. Nelson2

5. Why Was Water Vapor Excluded from Consideration in the Climate Change-CO2 Hypothesis?
The IPCC excludes water vapor and clouds for reasons other than science. The statement by the IPCC on page xv of the Executive Summary identifies the purpose of excluding water vapor [3]. “Two important greenhouse gases, water vapour, and ozone, are not included in this table. Water vapour has the largest greenhouse effect, but its concentration in the troposphere is determined internally within the climate system, and, on a global scale, is not affected by human sources and sinks.” Emphasis added. “It was agreed at the first meeting of the IPCC that a new assessment of the whole issue of anthropogenic climate change should be prepared.” [23] Emphasis added. The dictionary defines anthropogenic as meaning “chiefly of pollution or environmental change originating in human activity.” It means that the IPCC was formed not to determine if there is global warming or cooling, but to combat global pollution caused by human activity.
this is not how scientific discovery is performed
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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you do not have the first loose clue about what you blither about


Decoupling CO2 from Climate Change Michael Nelson1, David B. Nelson2



this is not how scientific discovery is performed
Idiotic.
The IPCC did not 'exclude' water vapour.
You just can't understand the difference between forcing and feedback effects, larue.
You're not bright enough, I can only lead you to the classes, I can't make you learn.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
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Idiotic.
The IPCC did not 'exclude' water vapour.
You just can't understand the difference between forcing and feedback effects, larue.
You're not bright enough, I can only lead you to the classes, I can't make you learn.

🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣 🤣
too funny coming from a high school drop out, scientific know nothing

here learn something


The exclusion of water vapor from consideration is perplexing. The Total Relative Absorption shown in Table 5, places it 84 times more effective than CO2. None of the six IPCC assessment reports included an investigation on whether water vapor was the main cause of the Greenhouse Effect. They excluded water vapor because it is not linked to human-made actions. However, that is not true. Basic chemistry shows that burning fossil fuels produces more water than CO2.

here is the combustion reaction for methane

1716408068787.png


There are also valid scientific principles supporting a water connection rather than a CO2 connection.

First, CO2 is only present in the atmosphere in trace amounts (0.04%) and lacks sufficient enthalpy to have any measurable effect on the atmosphere’s temperature.

Second, if the Earth is warming for reasons other than CO2, then under Henry’s Law, the solubility of CO2 in ocean water goes down when the water temperature goes up [26]. Therefore, an increase in the ocean’s temperature would cause CO2 to be released into the atmosphere [27]. The oceans contain 93% of all carbon dioxide on the planet [28]. Many studies have shown that the CO2 concentration only goes up after the temperature rises [6] [29]-[34]. That is, CO2 lags behind the temperature. This is inconsistent with CO2 being responsible for warming the atmosphere.

In 2007, the IPCC admitted that the climatic changes preceded changes in CO2 [7]. They changed their position to reflect that CO2 enhances, rather than causes, the temperature changes.
But they did not present any data showing such enhancements.

Third, the basis cited by the IPCC for CO2 being responsible for the Greenhouse Effect was a comparison of Mars and Venus [3]. Mars’ atmosphere is 80% CO2 and has a temperature of a minus 47˚C. Venus has an atmosphere of 90% CO2 and has a temperature of 477˚C. Earth is midway between the two, has only trace amounts of CO2 (0.04%), and has an average temperature of 59˚F (15˚C). An exhaustive study in 2007 addressed this issue. The exhaustive study reached the conclusion that Venus or Mars did not support a Greenhouse-CO2 relationship [35].Earth has a significant amount of water vapor in the atmosphere and vast oceans, while Mars and Venus have extraordinarily little. The Greenhouse Effect argument using Mars and Venus would support the idea that water may M. Nelson, D. B. Nelson DOI: 10.4236/ijg.2024.153015 264 International Journal of Geosciences be the determining factor and not CO2.

Fourth, the absorption studies presented in section 4, show that water vapor surpasses CO2 in both concentration and infrared absorption abilities.


6.3. Cloud Fraction and Temperature Relationship

The data mainly focus on recent years due to the availability of satellites. Figure 10 is a plot of the cloud fraction and atmospheric temperatures from 1982 to 2018. The trendlines show an inverse relationship between cloud percent and atmospheric temperature. As the cloud cover goes down, the temperature goes up and vice versa.
1716408465931.png


Scientific principles discussed under the paragraphs 6.1 and 6.2 above support a cloud temperature connection. Changes in cloud cover adjust the amount of sun’s radiation hitting the ground. As a result, the ground warms up and the temperature rises. The similarity between the two trendlines is remarkable. They have nearly identical slopes (0.0717x verses 0.066x both round to 0.7x, except for the inverse relationship). The graph shows that the observational studies are consistent with scientific principles and physical laws. But the Figure standing alone does not prove causation. That is, did temperature cause the clouds to diminish or vice
versa. However, the heat transfer and reflection analysis support the view that clouds were the driving force.

Experts like Charles Blaisdell have pointed to individual deviations that may have caused some spikes. He points to the volcanic ash from Mount Pinatubo in
the early 90s and the clear cut logging in the Amazon rain forest. But that does not explain the trend. Some opined that it could be a combination of the AMO
(Atlantic Multi-decadal Oscillation) in the Northern Hemisphere, which has a 60 - 80 year reoccurring period, and the PDO (Pacific Decadal Oscillation) also
called El Nino. Other experts opine that cloud formations are sometimes like Black Swan Events, i.e. an unpredictable event that is beyond what is normally
expected. But there may be some observational evidence of causation.


s in the atmosphere, the data showed that water vapor dominated. It absorbed 84 times more than CO2, 407 thousand times more than methane, 452 thousand times more than ozone and 2.6 million times more than nitrous oxide. The study analyzed why the Climate Change organizations such as the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) and the United States EPA excluded water vapor from consideration. They addressed this issue in their action plan documents. Water vapor was not considered as a cause because it was not associated with man-made activities. They concluded that water vapor and clouds constituted a feedback mechanism based on CO2.
 

Frankfooter

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too funny coming from a high school drop out, scientific know nothing
I asked you a basic question, you can't answer it.
You can't understand the difference between a forcing and feedback effect for the climate.
That's really basic, larue.
If you can't understand the difference you shouldn't be posting here.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
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I asked you a basic question, you can't answer it.
You can't understand the difference between a forcing and feedback effect for the climate.
That's really basic, larue.
If you can't understand the difference you shouldn't be posting here.

i do not give a rats ass what you ask
you are a high school drop out/ pathological lair, pretending to be knowledgeable about scientific matters
do not ever tell me or anyone else where they can or can not post
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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you do not have the first loose clue about what you blither about
...
Can't even get the word "blather" correct.

Even if water vapour is 96% and ignoring the feedback loops, using that as an excuse not to act is like saying incurable diseases cause 96% of human deaths so we shouldn't bother acting on the others.
 

JohnLarue

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Can't even get the word "blather" correct.

Even if water vapour is 96% and ignoring the feedback loops, using that as an excuse not to act is like saying incurable diseases cause 96% of human deaths so we shouldn't bother acting on the others.
not even close you blithering moron
water vapor is the greenhouse gas
CO2 is atmospheric plant food and is essential for all life on the planet
 
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Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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i do not give a rats ass what you ask
you are a high school drop out/ pathological lair, pretending to be knowledgeable about scientific matters
do not ever tell me or anyone else where they can or can not post
I expect I've got more degrees than you, larue.
There is no way you have even an undergrad degree based on your writing skills and your total ignorance towards science.
If you can't understand forcing and feedback climate effects the only degree you would earn would come from an ancient matchbook.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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not even close you blithering moron
water vapor is the greenhouse gas
CO2 is atmospheric planet food and is essential for all life on the planet
Forcing vs feedback, larue.

Clearly you just aren't bright enough to understand the subject.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
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Forcing vs feedback, larue.

Clearly you just aren't bright enough to understand the subject.
water vapor is the dominate greenhouse gas
CO2 is atmospheric plant food and is essential for all life on the planet
 
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JohnLarue

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Jan 19, 2005
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I expect I've got more degrees than you, larue.
not a chance

There is no way you have even an undergrad degree based on your writing skills and your total ignorance towards science.
1716459269920.png

If you can't understand forcing and feedback climate effects the only degree you would earn would come from an ancient matchbook.
1716459317606.png

water vapor is the greenhouse gas
CO2 is atmospheric plant food and is essential for all life on the planet


you have clearly shown your scientific ignorance
go sit in the corner with your dunce cap on
1716459653073.png
 
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Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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water vapor is the dominate greenhouse gas
CO2 is atmospheric plant food and is essential for all life on the planet
Larue, you can't understand the basics of climate science.
Greenhouse gases have forcing effects on the climate.
Water vapour is a feedback effect.

You're not smart enough to understand the difference and its incredibly basic science.
You are hopeless.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
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Room 112
The reality is that you don't know it and therefore you think scientists can't be smarter and more informed than you so you think it can't be happening.
So you cherry pick random stats without understanding the context or what it says about today.
I'm sure there are many climate scientists who are smarter and more informed than I. That doesn't mean they can do the impossible. Which is to reconstruct with a high level of certainty what the global climate was 2 million years ago, 200 million years ago or 2 billion years ago.
When you hear 2023 was the warmest year on record, how many climate data points does the record encompass? And how accurate and reliable is the record? Furthermore, why is 2°C some sort of 'tipping point'? Most living organisms are preconditioned to warming of at least 4-6°C. A warming climate is a much better alternative than a cooling climate.
 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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I'm sure there are many climate scientists who are smarter and more informed than I. That doesn't mean they can do the impossible. Which is to reconstruct with a high level of certainty what the global climate was 2 million years ago, 200 million years ago or 2 billion years ago.
When you hear 2023 was the warmest year on record, how many climate data points does the record encompass? And how accurate and reliable is the record? Furthermore, why is 2°C some sort of 'tipping point'? Most living organisms are preconditioned to warming of at least 4-6°C. A warming climate is a much better alternative than a cooling climate.
They don't need or try to reconstruct the temp from 2 billion years ago with a high level of certainty.
The planet's climate would be quite different with 2ºC warmer, with the 4ºC or so we are headed towards right now vast chunks become unliveable.
There are tons of studies, you could easily find out.

 

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Can't even get the word "blather" correct.

Even if water vapour is 96% and ignoring the feedback loops, using that as an excuse not to act is like saying incurable diseases cause 96% of human deaths so we shouldn't bother acting on the others.
I'd be tempted to take the side of climate activists if climate skeptics and
deniers are using that as an excuse not to cut back on consumption of gas
and other fossil fuel products. In reality people, non climate-deniers included,
don't want to compromise their lifestyle. Climate denial is not a significant
factor in rising carbon emission.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
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I'd be tempted to take the side of climate activists if climate skeptics and
deniers are using that as an excuse not to cut back on consumption of gas
and other fossil fuel products. In reality people, non climate-deniers included,
don't want to compromise their lifestyle. Climate denial is not a significant
factor in rising carbon emission.
there is a difference between compromising a lifestyle and pushing billions of people into abject poverty and starvation via stupidity.

restricting fossil fuel supply will reverse this truly wonderful trend
1716550720847.png
 
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