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Palestine between 1949 and 1967

basketcase

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Are you finally admitting its not antisemitic to be against Israeli...
Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

  • Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
  • Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
  • Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
  • Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
  • Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
  • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
  • Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
  • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
  • Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
  • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
 
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basketcase

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...
Israel tried again when Abbas took over, but he refused to even talk. ...
Olmert offered a completely contiguous Palestinian state on 100% of West Bank and Gaza (with land swaps which Abbas agreed to in concept) a land corridor between Gaza and the West Bank, International oversight on the 'Holy Basin' where the Christian, Muslim, and Jewish sites are, Jerusalem as a shared capital, some refugees/descendants who wanted to become Israeli could with the rest getting financial compensation and given assistance in settling in their country of birth, a Palestinian state, or a third country like Canada. It was completely compatible with what the UN and the Arab League support. It also included promises of international support to develop the Palestinian economy.

Abbas said he wasn't happy with what land was being swapped but the fact he never proposed his own map shows that his problem was the requirement that this deal would mark the end of the conflict and require them to recognize Israel's Jewish identity.

Of course even if he did agree, I have no idea how they would have convinced Hamas to accept a permanent peace.


They expelled every Jew in their territory,
Not quite true. For example there were 2 old Jewish men in Afghanistan last I heard.

But yes, numbers of Arabs/Muslim controlled Jews went from around a million in 1948 to less than 30,000 today, mostly in Turkey (where some politicians are currently threatening to strip their citizenship).
 
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canada-man

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canadianmale.wordpress.com
The Deception of Palestinian Nationalism




When speaking about the Middle East, it is common to hear about the “need” and “desire” for Palestinian statehood. But exactly what kind of state do the Palestinians want and what are the roots of Palestinian nationalism?

Historically, the Palestinian “desire for statehood” and “need for liberation” was invented in large part by the Soviet Union. It is no coincidence that the blueprint for the PLO Charter was drafted in Moscow in 1964 and was approved by 422 Palestinian representative hand selected by the KGB. At that time, the USSR was in the business of creating people’s liberation fronts. The KGB founded the PLO as well as the National Liberation Army of Bolivia (1964) with Ernesto “Che” Guevara at its head and the National Liberation Army of Colombia (1965).

These “liberation fronts” were seen by the USSR as centers of Marxist indoctrination and opposition to democratic and capitalist movements. In the Middle East, the only foothold of the democratic west is Israel; nurturing the PLO to undermine Israel was therefore quite natural for the Soviets, who not only helped fund and establish the PLO but also trained and supplied its terrorist operations.

To understand the PLO’s conception of a Palestinian state, it is instructive to examine Article 24 of the original PLO Charter. It reads: “this Organization [the PLO] does not exercise any regional sovereignty over the West Bank in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, in the Gaza Strip or the Himmah area.” If not the West Bank and Gaza, then what exactly what did, the PLO claim? The Palestine that the PLO wanted was in fact the State of Israel.

Consider that it was not until 1968 that Article 24 was amended to include a claim on the West Bank and Gaza. At the time of the original drafting, Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza after unilaterally and illegally annexing them following the War of Israeli Independence in 1948. It was only after Israel had gained these territories in the War of 1967 that the Palestinian Arabs declared an interest in controlling them.

The evidence that simple autonomy in the West Bank and Gaza was never the PLO’s true goal is everywhere. In 1970, US Secretary of State William Rogers suggested that the West Bank and Gaza be given up by Israel in return for peace and recognition. This plan was accepted by Israel, Jordan, and Egypt. Only Yasser Arafat, leader of the PLO, rejected it, opting instead to attempt an overthrow of Jordan’s King Hussein.

The evidence runs deeper. Yassir Arafat, who was head of the PLO until 2004, was under the direct tutelage and control of the KGB. Ion Mihai Pacepa, KGB officer and onetime chief of Romanian Intelligence, was assigned to handling Arafat. Pacepa recorded several of his conversations with Arafat when they met in Romania at the palace of brutal dictators Nicolai and Elena Ceausescu. In these conversations, Arafat unequivocally states that his sole aim is to destroy Israel.

Pacepa and the KGB were delighted. They consulted General Giap, a close associate of Ho Chi Minh, who was involved with the North Vietnamese propaganda effort during the Vietnam War. Giap recommended to Arafat that he “stop talking about annihilating Israel and instead turn your [Arafat’s] terror war into a struggle for human rights.” It had worked in Vietnam, he claimed, because transforming the conflict from one of ideologies (Socialism vs. Capitalism) to one of an “indigenous” people’s struggle for liberty had turned the tide of popular support in the West against the war.

Similar advice was provided to Arafat by Muhammed Yazid, minister of information in two Algerian wartime governments. He wrote “wipe out the argument that Israel is a small state whose existence is threatened by the Arab States, or the reduction of the Palestinian problem to a question of refugees; instead present the Palestinian struggle as one for liberation like the others. Wipe out the impression that in the struggle between the Palestinians and Zionists, the Zionist is the underdog. Now it is the Arab who is oppressed and victimized in his existence because he is not only facing the Zionists but also world imperialism.”

Yasser Arafat heeded this advice, and with the help of bi-weekly plane-loads of Soviet supplies brought in through Damascus as well as the Soviet propaganda machine, he began to portray the Palestinian Arabs as a supposedly indigenous population whose human rights were being tarnished by Israel.

The fact is that after the War of 1967, Israel inherited Arab refugees living in the West Bank and Gaza that were forced to live there in the period of Egyptian and Jordanian control from 1948 to 1967. Israel immediately offered to return the lands it won in 1967 (West Bank, Gaza, Sinai, and the Golan Heights) in return for a peace treaty. This offer was rejected by the Arab countries in the Khartoum Conference (Aug. 29- Sep. 1, 1967). In Arafat’s authorized biography, Arafat: Terrorist or Peace Maker, Arafat claims this moment as one of his greatest diplomatic victories.

It is telling that Zahir Muhse’in, member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) Executive Committee, said the following in a 1977 interview with the Amsterdam-based newspaper Trouw. “The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct ‘Palestinian people’ to oppose Zionism.”

Palestinian nationalism is therefore a historical fabrication born out of a communist thirst for expansion and an Arab resentment of the existence of Israel. The “need” and “desire” for Palestinian is a veiled expression of the “need” and “desire” to end Israel’s existence.

The Deception of Palestinian Nationalism (stanfordreview.org)



THE KGB AND ANTI-ISRAELI PROPAGANDA OPERATIONS, is a well-cited piece that includes numerous details about the KGB, including information provided by former Romanian Lt. Gen. Ion Mihai Pacepa, the highest-ranking Soviet defector, who would have been in a position to deal directly with Yasser Arafat.

“According to Ion Mihai Pacepa (as cited in J. Bergman, 2016), the “Palestinian Liberation Army” was contrived by the KGB, much like the KGB devised the Bolivian National Liberation Army. It created this Arab army in the early 1960s following the failure of the troops of various Arab states to destroy Israel. Pacepa (2006) stated that the KGB drafted the Palestinian National Charter and handpicked the 422 members of the PLO council that approved it. Andropov told Pacepa, “We needed to instill a Nazi-style hatred for the Jews throughout the Islamic world, and to turn this weapon of the emotions into a terrorist bloodbath against Israel” (Pacepa, 2006). Likewise, both the Palestine National Covenant and Palestinian Constitution were drafted in Moscow (Pacepa, as cited in J. Bergman, 2016).”


The KGB and Anti-Israel Propaganda Operations (inform.nu)
 

Conil

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Apr 12, 2013
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Jordan's rulers were foreigners imposed on the locals by the Brits and they have a system that benefits those foreign Hashemites.
The Turks conquered the whole area. But the Palestinians didn't own it before and had no rights to it. The Hashemites fought against the Turks with the British help and owned it since 1921. But the Jordanians were loyal to them. Iraq was also founded in 1921, the Turks were there for ages and then the Brits.
 
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Frankfooter

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No, we're calling you anti-Semitic for your use of token Jews as authoritative while systemically rejecting anything you don't like simply because it comes from Jews or people you pretend are Jews.
Token?
25% of US Jews say Israel is apartheid.

Now you're accusing 1/4 of US Jews of being antisemitic too.
What about the 49% of people living in Israel saying Israel is apartheid, are they antisemitic too?
Is apartheid that central to your identity as Jews?
 

Frankfooter

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He is happy to spew his anti-Semitic bile anytime he thinks he can blame Israel.
Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

  • Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
  • Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
  • Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
  • Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
  • Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
  • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
  • Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
  • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
  • Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
  • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
  • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
Even your definition of antisemitism isn't supported by all Jews.

Not to mention that according to the IHRA you are are antisemitic, as you keep arguing its antisemitic to criticize Israeli policy.
Same with your double standards where you claim that its antisemitic to hold Israel to the same standards as other countries on apartheid and war crimes. The entire world thinks no country should be apartheid while you think its antisemitic to demand equality.

According to your definition, you're an antisemite.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Even your definition of antisemitism isn't supported by all Jews.

Not to mention that according to the IHRA you are are antisemitic, as you keep arguing its antisemitic to criticize Israeli policy.
...
Wow your posts are getting stupid. But what else could we expect from someone who matches almost every single point on Canada's definition of anti-semitism.
 

Frankfooter

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Wow your posts are getting stupid. But what else could we expect from someone who matches almost every single point on Canada's definition of anti-semitism.
I argue against apartheid.
You push the antisemitic trope that criticizing Israeli policy is a slam to the Jewish people.
You don't even understand the stupid IHRA definition you back.

Too bad the two state solution is dead.
 

Leimonis

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Feb 28, 2020
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The Turks conquered the whole area. But the Palestinians didn't own it before and had no rights to it. The Hashemites fought against the Turks with the British help and owned it since 1921. But the Jordanians were loyal to them. Iraq was also founded in 1921, the Turks were there for ages and then the Brits.
and palestinians haven't figured out yet that they can start complaining and make money off terror?
 
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Frankfooter

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and palestinians haven't figured out yet that they can start complaining and make money off terror?
You mean the way Israel makes so much cash off arms sales, still gets $3.8 billion a year in free US weapons and gets to test all their new bombs on Gaza every couple of years?
 

basketcase

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I argue against apartheid.
...
So your calls that the entirety of Israeli is illegitimate, that the Jewish presence is colonial, and Jewish "occupiers" aren't civilians are actually a secret call for equal rights?

Riiight :rolleyes:
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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The Turks conquered the whole area. But the Palestinians didn't own it before and had no rights to it. The Hashemites fought against the Turks with the British help and owned it since 1921. But the Jordanians were loyal to them. Iraq was also founded in 1921, the Turks were there for ages and then the Brits.
That's one of the inconvenient points of history. The Brits and French gave the Meccan Hashemites Syria, Jordan, and Iraq who then turned around and incited because the Brits also promised a small chunk of land to Jews.
 
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Frankfooter

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So your calls that the entirety of Israeli is illegitimate, that the Jewish presence is colonial, and Jewish "occupiers" aren't civilians are actually a secret call for equal rights?

Riiight :rolleyes:
Stop the gaslighting, basketcase.

The UN has found:
The occupation is illegal
The blockade is illegal
The settlements are illegal

The best way to fix the issues are to force Israel to abide by international and be punished for all war crimes.
Then give Palestinians full citizenship, equal rights and the vote.

 

basketcase

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Stop the gaslighting, basketcase.

The UN has found:
...
You notice the UN has never called all of Israel occupied and has never called it illegitimate the way you do?
The UN has never justified Hamas terrorism the way you do.
The UN has never justified attacks on Jewish Israelis the way you do.


But if you really support the UN, why do you object to a negotiated Two State peace that the UN says is the only way forward?
 

Frankfooter

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You notice the UN has never called all of Israel occupied and has never called it illegitimate the way you do?
The UN has never justified Hamas terrorism the way you do.
The UN has never justified attacks on Jewish Israelis the way you do.


But if you really support the UN, why do you object to a negotiated Two State peace that the UN says is the only way forward?
I haven't called all of Israel 'occupied' either.
Just the OToP and Gaza.

But really, it should be anything past the UN partition borders is occupied.

The two state solution is long dead. Its time for BDS to end apartheid.

 

basketcase

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I haven't called all of Israel 'occupied' either.
...
So all your posts claiming Palestine has been occupied for 75 years?


And again you pretend to support the UN while rejecting the UN. The UN and Canada see the only path forward is a negotiated peace based on the '67 lines. This is just like when the UN and all your rights groups say there's no justification for attacks on Jews in the West Bank while you parrot hamas and call them all legitimate targets.
 

Frankfooter

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So all your posts claiming Palestine has been occupied for 75 years?


And again you pretend to support the UN while rejecting the UN. The UN and Canada see the only path forward is a negotiated peace based on the '67 lines. This is just like when the UN and all your rights groups say there's no justification for attacks on Jews in the West Bank while you parrot hamas and call them all legitimate targets.
Good point, you think that all of Israel is really occupied Palestine.

But the two state solution is dead.
Netanyahu wiped Palestine off the maps.

 
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