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Israel at war

dannydan2022

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Archeological findings from 2000 years ago do not matter. You cannot go somewhere 2000 years later and say your ancestors used to live there and claim the land for yourself. If we go by that logic, the indigenous people of Canada, can acquire weapons tomorrow and drive you out of Canada because they have lived here longer than any Canadian has. Neither the archeological findings, nor what your religion tells you - that you are a chosen people etc., is a legitimate reason for Israel to even exist.

So what makes Israel legitimate?

a) 10M people live there. Have a home, businesses, infrastructure and most importantly an identity.
b) Sufficient time has passed and Israel is recognized by the majority of the international community.

This is what makes Israel a legitimate state. That's it. People live there, and the world agrees they can live here. Nothing else.

The world also agrees, atleast the majority of it, that Palestine is also a legitimate state. It is time for Israel to recognize them and give them back their statehood.



The occupation is defined variously. But in my opinion, the settlements etc are occupation. At the very least the 1967 borders should be given back to the Palestinians. "We conquered this land" is not a legitimate argument, because by conquering the land, you have occupied it. That is not helping your argument at all.



Yes, Israel is a racist, apartheid state. The crime of Apartheid as defined by the Rome statute. Citizenship is not a criteria for a crime of apartheid to happen.

The crime of apartheid is defined by the 2002 Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as inhumane acts of a character similar to other crimes against humanity "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any other racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime".

There are different legal systems for Palestinians in the West Bank, where civil and criminal law does not apply to Palestinians but only to Israelis. Israel controls the land, builds walls, checkpoints, institutes ID systems and so on and restricts movement of people. All of these are features of apartheid. Granted some where brought in for security purposes, but at the end of the day it is apartheid.

Also, the very premise of Israel, that it is a Jewish ethno-state, "we are a chosen people" etc is inherently racist. Going by your definition of Zionism - that Jews have a connection to this homeland and are indigenous to this land, is inherently racist too because it denies Palestinian connection to the land. It rejects their identity, nationhood and many Israelis say that it is the Palestinians that are occupying their lands!!! When in reality, Palestinians have been there longer than present day Israelis have. So in sum, Zionism is racist.

I have spoken to several Israeli friends in my personal life and I have also watched videos from Corey Gil Shuster on YouTube (Ask Project), and other videos of everyday Israelis, one of which I will link below. If these views aren't racist, violent, cliquey and colonial, then what is?

thank you for the detailed response.

- Many of the arab countries define their countries by their religion too. Israel has the right to do the same. As I described above, my dads side can trace 400 years back (meaning likely longer but we dont have the fam tree). Most of the modern "Palestinians" migrated to Israel from mid 19th century once the land became prosperous. Israel was a land of sand or swamps. It was not a good place to live.

- You said something that is correct- from a pragmatic stand point there is a reality of 10mm Israelis and 4-5mm Palestinians. If Israel was smart it would define a state for them and be the first to recognize it. 67 borders is not pragmatic. If you do the most western line, it is merely 16 km from the sea. That is not practical. So some land exchange is likely required. Israel does have its own fanatics which the majority dont agree with. The political system in Israel is a prob and hopefully it would change at one point. Whether the Palestinians will want to govern themselves is a different prob. They need to stop being victims and think how to achieve a state without a war. That would be a good day.

- How in Israel there is apartheid is beyond me. supreme court judge, soccer players on national team, judges, doctors (lots of doctors) , members of parliament. So I respectfully disagree
 
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basketcase

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...
. If Israel was smart it would define a state for them and be the first to recognize it. 67 borders is not pragmatic. If you do the most western line, it is merely 16 km from the sea. That is not practical. ...
It's practical if the peace deal actually ensured that groups like Hamas gave up their arms and accepted the deal as an end to all claims. Ow wait, that will never happen.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Archeological findings from 2000 years ago do not matter. You cannot go somewhere 2000 years later and say your ancestors used to live there and claim the land for yourself. If we go by that logic, the indigenous people of Canada...
Agreed that religious mumbo-jumbo is not the basis for a land claim but...

At the time of the Ottoman collapse, there were around a million Jews between their lands and former lands in North Africa. Currently half of Israeli Jews are of Arab descent. From the principles used at the time of the peace treaty, each of the former Ottoman ethnicities were given land (except the Kurds) so under international law as it was at the time, the creation of a small Jewish state would make sense and it would make sense to put it where there was the most density. This became even more justified as most Arab/North African states used Israel as an excuse to ramp up anti-semitism including stripping Jews of citizenship despite being able to trace their families back for millennia and chasing them out.

And that 5000 years stuff is responsible for a continual Jewish presence in the region except for periods when they were expelled. Do you think the Jewish quarter of Old Jerusalem was a coincidence? And as we discussed before, the Old City had a significant Jewish population even before zionism was a thing.
 

Klatuu

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it is almost too easy to refute you.
1. You said that Auschwitz killed 1.5 MM jews in 5 years. Go study History. Most of the death were in the last 1.5 years. Re: how many kids died in Gaza- unlike your boy Hitler Israel warned Gazans to GET OUT, GO SOUTH, initially used something called knock on roof which is a small explosion to convince people to leave the building prior to bombing it. Can you tell me when Canada, US, Russia or ANYOTHER country ever sent a warning to somebody prior to bombing? Ill wait
- The Beirut explosion was like a small nuclear bomb in force, took the Lebanese 1 month to count <300 dead. Only your Nazi Palestinians count thousands in mere minutes. Maybe they should start another business! lol
2. 5 attacks on Gaza in last decade- unless your memory fails you- Hamas and Islamic Jihad did not shoot one missile into Israel. They ALWAYS make sure that they shoot from open areas, never in any proximity to schools or Mosques, never close to hospitals and they always shoot at only Israeli military targets. They NEVER shoot into civilian cities. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are the BEST! they cannt wait to do orgies with 72 well appointed virgins! do you think any of the girls on this site will do for them?
3. Israel did not occupy 1 cm of Gaza on Oct 6
4. Illegal blockage- did you send your objection to A Sisi? last i checked the guy put tanks on his side of the border to stop your Nazi friends.

Tell me, why the arab countries are signing deals with Israel to normalize relations but NOBODY wants the "Palestinians"? go see what they did to Jordan in the 60's and what they did to Lebanon in the 70's. Lebanon is a dead country bc of them.
Just non-sensical and childish low brow racist drivel.
 
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mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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stop watching tik tok. 40% of Israel population are people who were expelled from arab countries such as Iran, Iraq, Morocco, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia etc. They had their own nakba but they chose not to be victims for 500 years. fyi they are all dark.

and ooops forgot me some ethopian jews, they are more black than you. More black than Gazans. So your white lie just got debunked.
Yes, I know.

Re read my post. It's pretty clearly geared to commenting on Kautilya's "anti colonialist" fantasy.

Pay a little more attention to what people write and stop making a fool of yourself.
 

Alter Fritz

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Jun 5, 2020
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Yo wtf I thought this website was for smashing hookers and shit not pissing about the Israel-Palestine orgy. Anyway, if those two countries could stop masturbating each other's war desires, that will would be great. What a masturbatory fuckfest of fucking nonsense.
 

Frankfooter

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1.i am an israeli, a proud zionist. Zionism means that Jews have a connection to this land that all archeological findings from 2000 yrs ago prove the presence of jews. Just took a long time to create a country. Jews are in fact the indigenous to the land.
2. When you say 75 years occupation- you lost me. As I indicated above, if you dont believe in the right of israel to exist than the heck with you. If Israel is a sovereign state than by definition it occupies nothing but its own land.
3. In Israel there is no apartheid. Check the youtube link i included of the muslim girl talking about apartheid. Gaza was self ruled so no apartheid there. There is, i acknowledge, an issue with the west bank. The west bank is a land which was conquered by Israel and is a disputed land. Currently you have bunch of areas (A, C) where Palestinian authority is controlling with its own security apparatus.
4. Not sure how you came up to 233 settler killings of 250 Palestinians. Unlike you, the blind, I will say that you will find nut jobs in every country (incl in the Israeli gov...but not for long). As Israel has a strong judicial system, if somebody illegally or inappropriately kills somebody else- they stand trial, they find consequences. Some of those nut jobs sometimes create illegal posts on some hills- the courts remove them regularly.

As you can see- i responded to each one of your points. Unlike you and many others who always divert the conversation I addressed each point.

I will add one point- in its history Israel demonstrated willingness to give up conquered land (which was won in war and it had by virtue "the right of conquest") to establish peace. It gave up 1/3 of its size to Egypt. It gave up land for a peace with Jordan. It retreated from Lebanon to demonstrate it had no territorial "colonial" aspirations, and it retreated from gush katif. It signed deals with UAE, Sudan etc. Was about to sign with Saudi. Now tell me something sherlock, can you tell me what the Palestinians did to achieve peace? mmmmm
1 - Palestinians are also indigenous. They have as much rights to the land
2 - Its an occupation, that's the official UN view.
3 - Amnesty, HRW, B'tselem and the UN say its apartheid. Your personal opinion is worthless.
4 - See B'tselem/statistics. Every attack is detailed there.

Whatever you say about Israeli willingness to settle is pointless. 75 years later Palestine has been wiped off the map and there is only the one state of apartheid Israel.

 

Frankfooter

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G


Go crazy. Sometimes you guys are so dumb. Soda Stream was targeted by BDS, guess what? it employed something like 200 "Palestinians"- ie fed 200 families, which makes it with 2 circle of economic benefit for- 2000-5000. So yeah- go ahead.

There is a very sad story of one of Israel's leading entrepreneurs who employed many Gazans in his tech company. His daughter was murdered during Oct 7 Nova Party. Great thinking by your boys there!

You would be surprised that most high tech executives believe in peace and have collaborations even in the west bank. One of my friends invests in companies that have R&D in both territories.

GO AHEAD and boycott- put those families back into the poverty line. Genius
Invest away.


 

Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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it is almost too easy to refute you.
1. You said that Auschwitz killed 1.5 MM jews in 5 years. Go study History. Most of the death were in the last 1.5 years. Re: how many kids died in Gaza- unlike your boy Hitler Israel warned Gazans to GET OUT, GO SOUTH, initially used something called knock on roof which is a small explosion to convince people to leave the building prior to bombing it. Can you tell me when Canada, US, Russia or ANYOTHER country ever sent a warning to somebody prior to bombing? Ill wait
- The Beirut explosion was like a small nuclear bomb in force, took the Lebanese 1 month to count <300 dead. Only your Nazi Palestinians count thousands in mere minutes. Maybe they should start another business! lol
2. 5 attacks on Gaza in last decade- unless your memory fails you- Hamas and Islamic Jihad did not shoot one missile into Israel. They ALWAYS make sure that they shoot from open areas, never in any proximity to schools or Mosques, never close to hospitals and they always shoot at only Israeli military targets. They NEVER shoot into civilian cities. Hamas and Islamic Jihad are the BEST! they cannt wait to do orgies with 72 well appointed virgins! do you think any of the girls on this site will do for them?
3. Israel did not occupy 1 cm of Gaza on Oct 6
4. Illegal blockage- did you send your objection to A Sisi? last i checked the guy put tanks on his side of the border to stop your Nazi friends.

Tell me, why the arab countries are signing deals with Israel to normalize relations but NOBODY wants the "Palestinians"? go see what they did to Jordan in the 60's and what they did to Lebanon in the 70's. Lebanon is a dead country bc of them.
1 - you lost the argument when your debate about whether Gaza is like Auschwitz is just about the numbers.
2 - Gaza is a concentration camp. You complain they don't have enough space for open warfare but won't give it to them.
3 - Israel has run the illegal blockade for 17 years and keeps taking more of the West Bank each year
4 - Sisi is stopping Israel from driving Palestinians into the sea or Nabka 2.0

Israel has up to now had the US backing. But this war will kill Biden's reelection and make it impossible for politicians to back Israel again.

 
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Phil C. McNasty

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