Does anyone believe that Al-Ahli Arab Hospital was hit by the HAMAs?

richaceg

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I think it is important for everyone to remember there is a massive fog of war effect happening in this conflict. I don't know what really happened here. If could have been Israel, it could have been Hamas. Hamas would LOVE it to be Israel, so they can use it as propaganda to say the IDF is as bad as they are by killing civilians. And, it is very possible that a Hamas rocket fell well short of its mark.

Both sides have exaggerated the atrocities here (though, knowing there has been some exaggerating over what Hamas did still does not put them in a good light).

As I've said, this conflict is incredibly complex. Both sides HATE each other, and for good reason. Both sides have done terrible things. And while I think there was a chance of peace in the 90s....Hamas and what not have burned those bridges. David Frum had a good thread on Twitter about it:

You can blame Iran....as long as theirs a flow of money to support the "fight for freedom"...Hamas will continue to terrorize Gaza and Israel....Palestinians have nothing to do with this...Israeli civilians have nothing to do with this...they're merely expendable bodies for a lost cause...
 

PeteOsborne

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Sure, sure.
It is utterly inconceivable that a combustible fuel filled Hamas rocket could malfunction in the air and burst into flames and then somehow, inconceivably crash to the earth or onto hospital property creating a small impact crater and burning vehicles on the ground with burst fragments pockmarking a single building.

I'm sure the technical standards of The Hamas Terrorist Technical Standards Association regarding missiles and rockets are not very stringent.
Has anyone seen anything that stipulates the type of rocket that allegedly hit the hospital?
Need this identified to isolate impact and sound patterns.
 

richaceg

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There is no way an Islamic Jihad or rocket could cause a fireball in the air as the videos show.
It was a US supplied JDAM in airburst mode.

The Israeli story has changed multiple times already.

Airburst JDAM

Then look at this picture of the hospital aftermath.
The one spot that wasn't burnt was a car shaped spot that would only happen with a fireball from above.

are you blind? look at the trees non of it burnt...what you are referring to as "spot that wasn't burnt" was sunlight buddy...
 

Not getting younger

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I don't believe it was Hamas and neither does Israel.
They are blaming it on the Islamic Jihad, a totally different group from Hamas.
When I first saw the Israeli evidence on the horrific event, at first look it seemed plausible.
As more evidence came out in the form of pictures, drone videos, webcams and mobilephone videos ETC., I started having doubts because of inconsistencies between the evidence I was seeing and the explanation by Israel and the accounts by Hamas.
If it was done by the Islamic Jihad and was a misfire, they didn't intentionally target it.
If it was done by Israel it would have been, in my research, a JDAM type of bomb and would have been intentionally targeted.
One thing I have noticed is the distinci JDAM sound just before impact on one of the cell phone videos.
Still looking into it.
Islamic Jihad while a different group do have close ties to Hamas. The reports of similar sounds JDAMs are all over the net. Including one expert who thinks it may also be LORA.

Regardless. At least right now, the US is only saying it wasn’t Israel. And I’m 1000% sure they’re experts, who have likely seen everything. Know a lot more than us. :) However the lack of any crater is sort of damning.

Think I’ll go with what the US says.
So um Frank???
 

richaceg

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Has anyone seen anything that stipulates the type of rocket that allegedly hit the hospital?
Need this identified to isolate impact and sound patterns.
Since the Israel started their attack, they've been levelling buildings with precision...the amount of damage here doesn't prove it was an IDF missile.
 

Frankfooter

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Copy of my post on this to you in the Israel at war thread.
"It is sunlight, you can see the shadow of the guy with the backpack bent over."
Took me two seconds to figure it out.
Yes, you are right.

But it does still look like an explosion in the air.
How much fuel would it take to make that big an explosion vs the explosion of a JDAM airburst?

What about the testimony from the doctors at the hospital that two warning shells were fired by Israel, they called to warn and the hospital said they couldn't leave?
 

dirtydaveiii

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So who do you think is much more capable of killing civilians? a known terrorist faction or the military who issued a warning before going in?
It seems there are 5 possibilities

1 : Isreal intentionally blew up the hospital where they believed HAMAs were
2 : Israel hit the hospital by accident
3 HAMAs hit the hospital by accident
4 HAMAs hit the hospital on purpose
5 the hospital wasn't hit and the HAMAs are using it as a PR stunt
 

Frankfooter

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Sure, sure.
It is utterly inconceivable that a combustible fuel filled Hamas rocket could malfunction in the air and burst into flames and then somehow, inconceivably crash to the earth or onto hospital property creating a small impact crater and burning vehicles on the ground with burst fragments pockmarking a single building.

I'm sure the technical standards of The Hamas Terrorist Technical Standards Association regarding missiles and rockets are not very stringent.
Does Hamas or Islamic Jihad have rockets that carry that much fuel?
How much fuel is left after launch?

And a reminder that Israel had already been targeting hospitals.
 

Frankfooter

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It seems there are 5 possibilities

1 : Isreal intentionally blew up the hospital where they believed HAMAs were
2 : Israel hit the hospital by accident
3 HAMAs hit the hospital by accident
4 HAMAs hit the hospital on purpose
5 the hospital wasn't hit and the HAMAs are using it as a PR stunt
The IDF fired warning shots at the hospital according to the Evengelical Church

 

PeteOsborne

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kingston
Since the Israel started their attack, they've been levelling buildings with precision...the amount of damage here doesn't prove it was an IDF missile.
The lack of damage is what is confusing me if it was an Israeli bomb, that is why I would like to know what type of rocket the IDF says the IJ used.
The Qassam, which Hamas and IJ both use, has barely any noise before impact.
 

richaceg

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It seems there are 5 possibilities

1 : Isreal intentionally blew up the hospital where they believed HAMAs were
2 : Israel hit the hospital by accident
3 HAMAs hit the hospital by accident
4 HAMAs hit the hospital on purpose
5 the hospital wasn't hit and the HAMAs are using it as a PR stunt
There's a lot of possibilities now doesn't it....40% Israel 60% hamas... now if you have seen videos of Israel's attacks...they are leveling buildings...this particular attack pales in comparison if you look at the damage...
 

PeteOsborne

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Yes, you are right.

But it does still look like an explosion in the air.
How much fuel would it take to make that big an explosion vs the explosion of a JDAM airburst?

What about the testimony from the doctors at the hospital that two warning shells were fired by Israel, they called to warn and the hospital said they couldn't leave?
It does, that is what is confusing, the cell video of the impact shows impact below the top of the buildings with the flame ball rising past the roofs.
The lack of damage doesn't seem to indicate a JDAM airburst of the minimum size that the IDF uses.
The sound does indicate a JDAM munition.
I take the testimony of the doctors with the same regard as the IDF spokesman at this point.
Which of these is telling the truth?
 

dirtydaveiii

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Furthermore why is Trump the only repulvian who publicly praised thr HAMAs and condemned Israel ? Is what the HAMAs did really any different than what Putin does in the Ukraine? Israel was Palestine until after wwii just like Ukraine was part of Russia so what's the difference? Is it because the HAMAs are a right eing extremist group like the MAGAs?
 

dirtydaveiii

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There's a lot of possibilities now doesn't it....40% Israel 60% hamas... now if you have seen videos of Israel's attacks...they are leveling buildings...this particular attack pales in comparison if you look at the damage...
One thing is certain : nobody on terb or Twitter has any fucking idea what happened. Israel claims #3 while Palestine claims#1. I find it more probable that Israel would attack a building where they believed HAMAs were hiding out than the HAMAs just happened to hit it by accident. That's why I was asking about the weaponry of the HAMAs and if it was possible for them to accidentally hit a hospital when they were aiming at Israel
 

dirtydaveiii

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I think it is either 1, 2 or 3. I am leaning more towards 2 personally. But 1 is entirely possible too.

Also as for the craters - may be someone with military experience can explain, but if it was an anti-personnel type of weapon, it would be an airburst ordnance I believe. Which would probably not create craters?

I think we will never know for sure.
Didn't the US blow up hospitals and schools in Iraq and Afghanistan?
 

dirtydaveiii

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I think it is either 1, 2 or 3. I am leaning more towards 2 personally. But 1 is entirely possible too.

Also as for the craters - may be someone with military experience can explain, but if it was an anti-personnel type of weapon, it would be an airburst ordnance I believe. Which would probably not create craters?

I think we will never know for sure.
How long did it take Israel after the hospital being blown up did it take them to deny it was them ?
 
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