Reverie

The Incredible Shrinking NATO

Addict2sex

Well-known member
Jan 29, 2017
2,464
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113

The Incredible Shrinking NATO

SUNDAY, JUL 16, 2023 - 07:00 AM
Submitted by Dmitry Orlov,
I've been waiting for the hubbub to die down since the NATO conference in Vilnius, Lithuania, on 11-12 July 2023, waiting for someone — anyone — to point out the obvious reason for why the Ukraine's cocaine-sniffing mascot-president Zelensky, having been lionized only a year ago, has suddenly fallen into disfavor with this organization.
Yes, the Ukraine might still some day be invited to start the long and arduous process of joining NATO, but only after some undefined number of NATO members decide that it has done enough to comply with "NATO standards" (I'll explain what those are later) and various other vague things. Keeping in mind that back on 20 September 2018 the Ukrainian parliament approved amendments to the constitution that would make the accession of the country to NATO and the EU a central goal and the main foreign policy objective, such a turn of events is most embarrassing for the mascot president and his backers and handlers.




Oh, the vicissitudes of fortune! Lots of analysis and commentators offered ready explanations for this turn of events. Yet not a single one of them saw it fit to dig just the tiniest bit and discover the glaringly obvious reason for this momentous shift.
Perhaps all of them, for a variety of reasons, loathe to admit the reality of what NATO is, what it does, and why the Ukraine is suddenly a threat rather than a boon to its core mission.
You may want to read all of that commentary at your leisure — if you have trouble falling asleep. The official NATO Summit Communiqué, fantastically verbose and filled with irrelevancies, makes for particularly somniferous reading.
So, what did the Ukraine do to fall into such disfavor? Perhaps it did something that jeopardized NATO's core mission? That seems like a good guess. But then what is NATO's core mission?
In the movie "Silence of the Lambs," Hannibal Lecter refers to a quote by Marcus Aurelius when he says to Clarice Starling, "First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature?" The quote is from Book Three of "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius, and it emphasizes the importance of understanding the essence of things.
NATO was formed on 4 April 1949 with the signing of the North Atlantic Treaty, more popularly known as the Washington Treaty, supposedly for the purpose of thwarting the Soviet Union in Europe. The USSR responded by forming the Warsaw Treaty Organization (also known as the Warsaw Pact) — a political and military alliance established on May 14, 1955 between the Soviet Union and several Eastern European countries for the express purpose of defending them from NATO. The Warsaw Pact was dissolved on 1 July 1991 and, shortly thereafter, on 26 December 1991, the USSR itself followed suit, but NATO continues to exist. By this point, the Warsaw Pact had existed for slightly less than NATO has existed, and the USSR had existed for only slightly more than that. Clearly, the communist threat as a rationale for NATO's existence was but a ruse, a smokescreen... a red herring.
So, what was NATO's real purpose? There are many ways to answer this question, but the Ukraine's sudden fall from grace offers what is perhaps the most graphic explanation.
  • Was it that the war there was dragging on? No, a slow burn would be exactly what the Pentagon ordered, so that it would have a chance to keep up with Russia's hectic pace of weapons and ammunition deliveries.
  • Was it that the Ukraine was losing the war? No, the Ukraine wasn't losing; it just wasn't winning. In particular, its attacks on Russia's defensive lines, which the Russian troops termed "meat attacks" because of the huge and useless losses they incurred on the Ukrainian side, seemed rather futile.
  • Was it that the Ukraine was about to be defeated? Again, no, the Russians were happy to advance a few kilometers here and there, with their main objective the establishment of a buffer zone wide enough so that Ukrainian artillery would stop shelling what are now Russian civilian districts.
  • Was it that NATO ran out of weapons and ammo to give to the Ukrainians? Again, no, there is still quite a lot of semi-obsolete junk that could be handed over to the Ukrainians.
So, what did the Ukrainians do to raise the ire of the Pentagon so suddenly, and as a direct consequence, fall into disfavor with NATO?
In short, the Ukrainians demonstrated that NATO's weapons are crap.

Evidence of this built up slowly over time.
First, it turned out that various bits of US-made shoulder-fired junk — anti-aircraft Stingers, anti-tank Javelins, etc — are rather worse than useless in modern combat.
Next, it turned out that the M777 howitzer and the HIMARS rocket complex are rather fragile and aren't field-maintainable.
The next wonder-weapon thrown at the Ukrainian problem was the Patriot missile battery. It was deployed near Kiev and the Russians quickly made a joke of it. They attacked it with their super-cheap Geranium 5 "flying moped" drones, causing it to turn on its active radar, thereby unmasking its position, and then fire off its entire load of rockets — a million dollars' worth! — after which point it just sat there, unmasked and defenseless, and was taken out by a single Russian precision rocket strike.
This was sure to have seriously pissed off US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, whose major personal cash cow happens to be Raytheon, the maker of the Patriot. Yes, the Patriot proved useless using the First Gulf War, where it failed to protect Israel against ancient Iraqi Scud missiles; and it proved useless later on when it failed to protect Saudi oil installation against ancient Yemeni Scud missiles... but you aren't supposed to advertise that fact. And now this!
And to top it all off, the German-donated Leopard 2 tanks and the US-donated Bradley infantry vehicles, not to mention the silly French wheeled non-tanks, performed absolutely miserably during the recent Ukrainian efforts to approach, never mind penetrate, Russia's first line of defense. Rubbing salt into the wounds, Putin remarked off-the-cuff that Western armor burns rather more easily than the old Soviet-made stuff.
The latest desperate move would be to give the Ukrainian air force (which, by the way, no longer exists) some older F-16 fighter jets.These can be anywhere up to 50 years old and are peculiar in having an air intake that's very close to the ground, making them very effective as runway vacuum cleaners during takeoff. They cannot operate from the dirty and pitted runways that are typical in the Ukraine because the debris would get sucked into the engine and destroy it. If the Ukrainians attempt to pave new runways for them, the Russians would instantly spot this from the geosynchronous satellite that is permanently pointed at Ukrainian territory. Rather than put some fresh bomb craters on these new runways, they could do something more subtle: use one of their super-cheap Geranium 2's to spread metal shaving for the F-16's engines to vacuum up... and burn up in flight. And since these are single-engine planes, there is no possibility of limping home on the remaining engine: the pilot would have to catapult and the plane would crash. But there is an even more important reason why the idea of giving F-16's for the Ukraine is unworkable: these planes are able to carry nuclear bombs and Russia has already announced that it would see this step as a nuclear escalation. But provoking a nuclear conflict with Russia is verboten, so F-16's are a no-go.
Why is the failure of relentlessly propagandized Western weaponry more important than just about anything else, including the increasingly dire state of Western finances, the ridiculous failure of anti-Russian sanctions, the obscenely huge numbers of Ukrainian casualties or the general Western fatigue with all things Ukrainian and especially with the flood of Ukrainian refugees that the West can no longer cope with?
The reason is simple: NATO is not a defensive organization (remember, USSR has been gone for over 30 years); nor is it an offensive organization (well, it did bomb Serbia and a few other relatively defenseless countries, but it can't possibly think about facing off against Russia or any other well-armed nation).
Rather, NATO is a captive buyers' club for US-made weapons. That is what vaunted NATO standards, with which the Ukraine must comply before it is deemed worthy to be invited to join NATO, are all about: to comply with these standards, your weapons have to be mostly US-made. That is also the reason for all of the various wars of choice, from Serbia to Iraq to Afghanistan to Libya and Syria: these were demonstration projects for US weapons, with the additional goal of using up the weapons and the munitions so that the Pentagon and the rest of NATO would have to reorder them. The geopolitical rationales for these military conflicts are mere rationalizations. For instance, between 1964 and 1973, the U.S. dropped more than 2.5 million tons of bombs on Laos during 580,000 bombing sorties—equal to a planeload of bombs every eight minutes, 24 hours a day, for nine years. What was the geopolitical rationale? Nobody can even remember if there ever was one. But those bombs were about to expire and needed to be used up and reordered to keep the money flowing.
In response to such strange inducements, US-made weapons tend to be overly complex (so that their makers can charge more for the useless extra features) and rather fragile (never tested against a peer adversary like Russia or China, or even against Iran), developed slowly (to clean up on R&D funding), built slowly (because what's the rush?) and very high-maintenance (so that US defense contractors can get even richer delivering spare parts and service). These weapons were supposed to be tested every so gently by giving hell to backward tribesmen armed with old Kalashnikovs and RPGs.
Ukraine is a different story altogether. There, the Ukrainians, with their mismatched hand-me-down Western armor, are being asked to penetrate three lines of hardened Russian defenses. After about a month of effort and staggering losses of men and equipment, they haven't yet been able to reach the first defensive line. The sight of Western armor ablaze does not make good advertising. Consequently, the US defense contractors must be very eager to stop this steady stream of negative advertising for their products to stop right this second — before their reputations end up completely ruined; hence the unseemly haste with which the entire Ukrainian project is being orphaned.
The alternative to active warfare, now that that's failed, is what in the West is usually called "negotiation" but in reality would involve acceding to Russian demands made in November of 2021 (which include NATO rolling back its weapons to where they were in 1997), plus more recent requirements, such as denazification, demilitarization and neutrality for what remains of the Ukraine, recognition of Russia's new borders (which include Crimea, Kherson, Zaporozhye, Donetsk and Lugansk regions) and prosecution for all of the Ukrainian war criminals, including all the ones that have been torturing prisoners of war and shelling civilians since 2014. Oh, and the lifting of all the insipid sanctions would be required as well.
But this is rather a lot to take in at a single sitting, and so NATO has decided to take lots of bite-sized pieces. The official NATO document linked above is maximally verbose and full of fluff, but a close reading of its turgid bureaucratese will reveal quite a number of concessions, or at least hints at concessions:
  • "We will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met." To use a vernacular Russian saying, this will happen "when a crawfish up on a mountain whistles" — i.e., never. That is, the Ukraine will never become part of NATO.
  • "The circumstances in which NATO might have to use nuclear weapons are extremely remote." Translation: We're standing down! Please don't kill us! Apparently, NATO heads have been briefed on the capabilities of Russia's new strategic weapons, both offensive and defensive, and don't want to even consider any sort of direct military confrontation with Russia.
  • "We urge all countries not to provide any kind of assistance to Russia’s aggression..." Translation: we wish they would stop, although we've asked enough times already and they haven't listened and so we aren't holding out much hope that they will listen now.
  • "The deepening strategic partnership between the PRC and Russia and their mutually reinforcing attempts to undercut the rules-based international order run counter to our values and interests." But the deepening strategic partnership is entirely congruent with both Russia's and China's values and interests and they aren't about to ask anyone for permission. Yammering on about the "rules-based international order," even though it no longer exists, is a bit pathetic, but what else is there left for them to do? Boo-hoo!
  • "Russia’s deepening military integration with Belarus, including the deployment of advanced Russian military capabilities and military personnel in Belarus, has implications for regional stability and the defence of the Alliance." Well, that's exactly what that military integration was designed to accomplish and it's good that they've noticed. The implication is that NATO will never mess with Belarus again.
  • "We remain willing to keep open channels of communication with Moscow to manage and mitigate risks, prevent escalation, and increase transparency." That's welcome news indeed! Phone the Kremlin any time you want to hear a recitation of Russia's security demands, to refresh your memory.
  • "The People’s Republic of China’s stated ambitions and coercive policies challenge our interests, security and values." And NATO's interests and values challenge the PRC and its security, so we're at an impasse. In other news, Russia just passed a law banning all sex change operations; how does that comply with "Western values"? Come on, shake your tiny fists in impotent rage!
  • "NATO does not seek confrontation and poses no threat to Russia. In light of its hostile policies and actions, we cannot consider Russia to be our partner." And in light of NATO's hostile policies and actions, Russia considers NATO countries to be hostile nations (and certainly not partners). How does giving weapons to Ukrainian Nazis not pose a threat to Russia?
  • "We reiterate our clear determination that Iran must never develop a nuclear weapon. We remain deeply concerned about Iran’s escalation of its nuclear programme." So, Iran is the only country that toothless old NATO can still find the courage to bark at. That seems safe, since by now Iran can't even hear them.
And that's where it stands.
Europe looks in horror at the US, which is still its weapons purveyor and security guarantor, but is headed by a barely functioning senile old man whose furious outbursts are causing his cabinet members to shy away from the Oval Office, and whose only possible replacement — the imbecilic, cackling Kamala — would hardly be any better.
It may be slowly dawning on some of the more lucid European leaders that a way of backing out of the Russophobic cul-de-sac, of their own creation, in which they now find themselves, must somehow be found, but they see no way of achieving that without a massive loss of face.
Let's give it another year and see whether by then they still have a face to save.
 
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toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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The Incredible Shrinking NATO

SUNDAY, JUL 16, 2023 - 07:00 AM
Submitted by Dmitry Orlov,
I've been waiting for the hubbub to die down since the NATO conference in Vilnius, Lithuania, on 11-12 July 2023, waiting for someone — anyone — to point out the obvious reason for why the Ukraine's cocaine-sniffing mascot-president Zelensky, having been lionized only a year ago, has suddenly fallen into disfavor with this organization.
Yes, the Ukraine might still some day be invited to start the long and arduous process of joining NATO, but only after some undefined number of NATO members decide that it has done enough to comply with "NATO standards" (I'll explain what those are later) and various other vague things. Keeping in mind that back on 20 September 2018 the Ukrainian parliament approved amendments to the constitution that would make the accession of the country to NATO and the EU a central goal and the main foreign policy objective, such a turn of events is most embarrassing for the mascot president and his backers and handlers.




Oh, the vicissitudes of fortune! Lots of analysis and commentators offered ready explanations for this turn of events. Yet not a single one of them saw it fit to dig just the tiniest bit and discover the glaringly obvious reason for this momentous shift.
Perhaps all of them, for a variety of reasons, loathe to admit the reality of what NATO is, what it does, and why the Ukraine is suddenly a threat rather than a boon to its core mission.
You may want to read all of that commentary at your leisure — if you have trouble falling asleep. The official NATO Summit Communiqué, fantastically verbose and filled with irrelevancies, makes for particularly somniferous reading.
So, what did the Ukraine do to fall into such disfavor? Perhaps it did something that jeopardized NATO's core mission? That seems like a good guess. But then what is NATO's core mission?
In the movie "Silence of the Lambs," Hannibal Lecter refers to a quote by Marcus Aurelius when he says to Clarice Starling, "First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature?" The quote is from Book Three of "Meditations" by Marcus Aurelius, and it emphasizes the importance of understanding the essence of things.
NATO was formed on 4 April 1949 with the signing of the North Atlantic Treaty, more popularly known as the Washington Treaty, supposedly for the purpose of thwarting the Soviet Union in Europe. The USSR responded by forming the Warsaw Treaty Organization (also known as the Warsaw Pact) — a political and military alliance established on May 14, 1955 between the Soviet Union and several Eastern European countries for the express purpose of defending them from NATO. The Warsaw Pact was dissolved on 1 July 1991 and, shortly thereafter, on 26 December 1991, the USSR itself followed suit, but NATO continues to exist. By this point, the Warsaw Pact had existed for slightly less than NATO has existed, and the USSR had existed for only slightly more than that. Clearly, the communist threat as a rationale for NATO's existence was but a ruse, a smokescreen... a red herring.
So, what was NATO's real purpose? There are many ways to answer this question, but the Ukraine's sudden fall from grace offers what is perhaps the most graphic explanation.
  • Was it that the war there was dragging on? No, a slow burn would be exactly what the Pentagon ordered, so that it would have a chance to keep up with Russia's hectic pace of weapons and ammunition deliveries.
  • Was it that the Ukraine was losing the war? No, the Ukraine wasn't losing; it just wasn't winning. In particular, its attacks on Russia's defensive lines, which the Russian troops termed "meat attacks" because of the huge and useless losses they incurred on the Ukrainian side, seemed rather futile.
  • Was it that the Ukraine was about to be defeated? Again, no, the Russians were happy to advance a few kilometers here and there, with their main objective the establishment of a buffer zone wide enough so that Ukrainian artillery would stop shelling what are now Russian civilian districts.
  • Was it that NATO ran out of weapons and ammo to give to the Ukrainians? Again, no, there is still quite a lot of semi-obsolete junk that could be handed over to the Ukrainians.
So, what did the Ukrainians do to raise the ire of the Pentagon so suddenly, and as a direct consequence, fall into disfavor with NATO?
In short, the Ukrainians demonstrated that NATO's weapons are crap.

Evidence of this built up slowly over time.
First, it turned out that various bits of US-made shoulder-fired junk — anti-aircraft Stingers, anti-tank Javelins, etc — are rather worse than useless in modern combat.
Next, it turned out that the M777 howitzer and the HIMARS rocket complex are rather fragile and aren't field-maintainable.
The next wonder-weapon thrown at the Ukrainian problem was the Patriot missile battery. It was deployed near Kiev and the Russians quickly made a joke of it. They attacked it with their super-cheap Geranium 5 "flying moped" drones, causing it to turn on its active radar, thereby unmasking its position, and then fire off its entire load of rockets — a million dollars' worth! — after which point it just sat there, unmasked and defenseless, and was taken out by a single Russian precision rocket strike.
This was sure to have seriously pissed off US Secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin, whose major personal cash cow happens to be Raytheon, the maker of the Patriot. Yes, the Patriot proved useless using the First Gulf War, where it failed to protect Israel against ancient Iraqi Scud missiles; and it proved useless later on when it failed to protect Saudi oil installation against ancient Yemeni Scud missiles... but you aren't supposed to advertise that fact. And now this!
And to top it all off, the German-donated Leopard 2 tanks and the US-donated Bradley infantry vehicles, not to mention the silly French wheeled non-tanks, performed absolutely miserably during the recent Ukrainian efforts to approach, never mind penetrate, Russia's first line of defense. Rubbing salt into the wounds, Putin remarked off-the-cuff that Western armor burns rather more easily than the old Soviet-made stuff.
The latest desperate move would be to give the Ukrainian air force (which, by the way, no longer exists) some older F-16 fighter jets.These can be anywhere up to 50 years old and are peculiar in having an air intake that's very close to the ground, making them very effective as runway vacuum cleaners during takeoff. They cannot operate from the dirty and pitted runways that are typical in the Ukraine because the debris would get sucked into the engine and destroy it. If the Ukrainians attempt to pave new runways for them, the Russians would instantly spot this from the geosynchronous satellite that is permanently pointed at Ukrainian territory. Rather than put some fresh bomb craters on these new runways, they could do something more subtle: use one of their super-cheap Geranium 2's to spread metal shaving for the F-16's engines to vacuum up... and burn up in flight. And since these are single-engine planes, there is no possibility of limping home on the remaining engine: the pilot would have to catapult and the plane would crash. But there is an even more important reason why the idea of giving F-16's for the Ukraine is unworkable: these planes are able to carry nuclear bombs and Russia has already announced that it would see this step as a nuclear escalation. But provoking a nuclear conflict with Russia is verboten, so F-16's are a no-go.
Why is the failure of relentlessly propagandized Western weaponry more important than just about anything else, including the increasingly dire state of Western finances, the ridiculous failure of anti-Russian sanctions, the obscenely huge numbers of Ukrainian casualties or the general Western fatigue with all things Ukrainian and especially with the flood of Ukrainian refugees that the West can no longer cope with?
The reason is simple: NATO is not a defensive organization (remember, USSR has been gone for over 30 years); nor is it an offensive organization (well, it did bomb Serbia and a few other relatively defenseless countries, but it can't possibly think about facing off against Russia or any other well-armed nation).
Rather, NATO is a captive buyers' club for US-made weapons. That is what vaunted NATO standards, with which the Ukraine must comply before it is deemed worthy to be invited to join NATO, are all about: to comply with these standards, your weapons have to be mostly US-made. That is also the reason for all of the various wars of choice, from Serbia to Iraq to Afghanistan to Libya and Syria: these were demonstration projects for US weapons, with the additional goal of using up the weapons and the munitions so that the Pentagon and the rest of NATO would have to reorder them. The geopolitical rationales for these military conflicts are mere rationalizations. For instance, between 1964 and 1973, the U.S. dropped more than 2.5 million tons of bombs on Laos during 580,000 bombing sorties—equal to a planeload of bombs every eight minutes, 24 hours a day, for nine years. What was the geopolitical rationale? Nobody can even remember if there ever was one. But those bombs were about to expire and needed to be used up and reordered to keep the money flowing.
In response to such strange inducements, US-made weapons tend to be overly complex (so that their makers can charge more for the useless extra features) and rather fragile (never tested against a peer adversary like Russia or China, or even against Iran), developed slowly (to clean up on R&D funding), built slowly (because what's the rush?) and very high-maintenance (so that US defense contractors can get even richer delivering spare parts and service). These weapons were supposed to be tested every so gently by giving hell to backward tribesmen armed with old Kalashnikovs and RPGs.
Ukraine is a different story altogether. There, the Ukrainians, with their mismatched hand-me-down Western armor, are being asked to penetrate three lines of hardened Russian defenses. After about a month of effort and staggering losses of men and equipment, they haven't yet been able to reach the first defensive line. The sight of Western armor ablaze does not make good advertising. Consequently, the US defense contractors must be very eager to stop this steady stream of negative advertising for their products to stop right this second — before their reputations end up completely ruined; hence the unseemly haste with which the entire Ukrainian project is being orphaned.
The alternative to active warfare, now that that's failed, is what in the West is usually called "negotiation" but in reality would involve acceding to Russian demands made in November of 2021 (which include NATO rolling back its weapons to where they were in 1997), plus more recent requirements, such as denazification, demilitarization and neutrality for what remains of the Ukraine, recognition of Russia's new borders (which include Crimea, Kherson, Zaporozhye, Donetsk and Lugansk regions) and prosecution for all of the Ukrainian war criminals, including all the ones that have been torturing prisoners of war and shelling civilians since 2014. Oh, and the lifting of all the insipid sanctions would be required as well.
But this is rather a lot to take in at a single sitting, and so NATO has decided to take lots of bite-sized pieces. The official NATO document linked above is maximally verbose and full of fluff, but a close reading of its turgid bureaucratese will reveal quite a number of concessions, or at least hints at concessions:
  • "We will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met." To use a vernacular Russian saying, this will happen "when a crawfish up on a mountain whistles" — i.e., never. That is, the Ukraine will never become part of NATO.
  • "The circumstances in which NATO might have to use nuclear weapons are extremely remote." Translation: We're standing down! Please don't kill us! Apparently, NATO heads have been briefed on the capabilities of Russia's new strategic weapons, both offensive and defensive, and don't want to even consider any sort of direct military confrontation with Russia.
  • "We urge all countries not to provide any kind of assistance to Russia’s aggression..." Translation: we wish they would stop, although we've asked enough times already and they haven't listened and so we aren't holding out much hope that they will listen now.
  • "The deepening strategic partnership between the PRC and Russia and their mutually reinforcing attempts to undercut the rules-based international order run counter to our values and interests." But the deepening strategic partnership is entirely congruent with both Russia's and China's values and interests and they aren't about to ask anyone for permission. Yammering on about the "rules-based international order," even though it no longer exists, is a bit pathetic, but what else is there left for them to do? Boo-hoo!
  • "Russia’s deepening military integration with Belarus, including the deployment of advanced Russian military capabilities and military personnel in Belarus, has implications for regional stability and the defence of the Alliance." Well, that's exactly what that military integration was designed to accomplish and it's good that they've noticed. The implication is that NATO will never mess with Belarus again.
  • "We remain willing to keep open channels of communication with Moscow to manage and mitigate risks, prevent escalation, and increase transparency." That's welcome news indeed! Phone the Kremlin any time you want to hear a recitation of Russia's security demands, to refresh your memory.
  • "The People’s Republic of China’s stated ambitions and coercive policies challenge our interests, security and values." And NATO's interests and values challenge the PRC and its security, so we're at an impasse. In other news, Russia just passed a law banning all sex change operations; how does that comply with "Western values"? Come on, shake your tiny fists in impotent rage!
  • "NATO does not seek confrontation and poses no threat to Russia. In light of its hostile policies and actions, we cannot consider Russia to be our partner." And in light of NATO's hostile policies and actions, Russia considers NATO countries to be hostile nations (and certainly not partners). How does giving weapons to Ukrainian Nazis not pose a threat to Russia?
  • "We reiterate our clear determination that Iran must never develop a nuclear weapon. We remain deeply concerned about Iran’s escalation of its nuclear programme." So, Iran is the only country that toothless old NATO can still find the courage to bark at. That seems safe, since by now Iran can't even hear them.
And that's where it stands.
Europe looks in horror at the US, which is still its weapons purveyor and security guarantor, but is headed by a barely functioning senile old man whose furious outbursts are causing his cabinet members to shy away from the Oval Office, and whose only possible replacement — the imbecilic, cackling Kamala — would hardly be any better.
It may be slowly dawning on some of the more lucid European leaders that a way of backing out of the Russophobic cul-de-sac, of their own creation, in which they now find themselves, must somehow be found, but they see no way of achieving that without a massive loss of face.
Let's give it another year and see whether by then they still have a face to save.
Wow. It is one thing to just repeat Russian propaganda but do you actually read this horseshit before your masters order you to post it. Wow.
 

NotADcotor

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Mar 8, 2017
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Shrinking NATO? Did you miss Sweden and Finland's membership?

Ukraine cannot join NATO right now because that could possibly mean WW 3. This was not news, it was always known that Ukraine would only join NATO after the war ended. Not sure why this article is making a big deal of this. I mean if the war had never started, then Ukraine would have remained neutral, but now Russia has guaranteed Ukrainian membership. So I wouldn't title the article "shrinking NATO" lol.

BTW on the other hand. I am not even sure if CSTO will survive after this war is over.
Not sure but I've seen people say it would be against the rules if there is an open dispute.

Also, OP used the word shrinking, I don't think that word means what he thinks it means. That or he is so divorced from reality that it is easily a mental health issue. [Or trolling]


If Addy was a doctor he would tell people to gain fat to help control their diabetes because shrinking body fat helps with that.
 

NotADcotor

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Mar 8, 2017
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Addict2sex

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Jan 29, 2017
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Wow. It is one thing to just repeat Russian propaganda but do you actually read this horseshit before your masters order you to post it. Wow.
The first 3 original reasons for NATO which were to keep the Americans IN Europe, Keep the Soviets OUT of Europe and Keep the Germans DOWN in Europe. RIght here, right now in Europe I bet any citizen of say Italy or Spain or the Netherlands would much rather have a German economy firing on all cylinders rather than the suicidal joke that is Germany right now. This realization is going to be the death blow for NATO and for the American presence on the Continent.

Outside of maybe the Poles, the day is fast approaching when Europeans are going to send Uncle Sam OUT of Europe. The silent smile and chuckle from Niki Haley when Tucker asked her “who blew up the Nord Stream pipelines” is beginning to really burn the asses of even the elite in Europe.

Germany will rise again led by the AfD and Europe will find their way back to the relative peaceful existence based upon shared economic needs which they had with Russia before this clown world cluster **** of an administration took over in the USA. So, NATO falls first and then the EU. The EU will be replaced with a decentralized Union of European Nations and NATO will be replaced with defense and security agreements that will basically be built upon keeping the foreign invaders out. Those foreign invaders are NOT Russians. They are the war and economic “refugees” created by AMERICAN foreign policy and encouraged by AMERICAN NGOs.

The logic is overwhelming that is going to happen.
It's going to take a while to sink in who blew up those pipelines but it will take even longer to replace them.
If Europeans are smart they'll mend fences with Putin and to do that they'll have to sever ties with troublemaking Americans that behave like rattlesnakes.
 

Addict2sex

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Jan 29, 2017
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Wow. ..…do you actually read this horseshit before your masters order you to post it. Wow.
Shrinking NATO? Did you miss Sweden and Finland's membership?

Ukraine cannot join NATO right now because that could possibly mean WW 3. This was not news, it was always known that Ukraine would only join NATO after the war ended. Not sure why this article is making a big deal of this. I mean if the war had never started, then Ukraine would have remained neutral, but now Russia has guaranteed Ukrainian membership. So I wouldn't title the article "shrinking NATO" lol.

BTW on the other hand. I am not even sure if CSTO will survive after this war is over.
You mean other countries joined NATO like Sweden & Finland ! It all bullshits that look like wind dressing! !
I enjoyed reading it. That why I post. You leftie ( warmonger) don’t like the reality of msm lying that the bullshits lies that Ukrainian is winning the war. Or that NeoNazi President Zelensky thinks he will will eventually get accepted into NATO. The reality USA don’t give a dam about Ukraine and willingly will use Ukrainian soldiers to fight to the last Ukrainian soldiers that they will move on to China. Ukraine have serves majority of US military industry complex purpose helping them getting rid of their old stock of outdated weapons and helping to rearms USA milItary. The politicians happily glad to receive funding (oops kickbacks. donation) from the MIC for the reelection campaign . Destroying the Destruction of Northstream natural gas pipelines was one of the American objectives, that benefits American economy by destroy Germany competitive industries ! When the German people fed up of recession they will demand the new Germany party AfG to leave NATO. NATOis finished and EU is finishEd without Germany when the German people realized they had been used! Germany people prefer peace and closer ties and cheap natural gas with Russia to help their economies to stay competitive .
They care about affordable energy and jobs!!! And cheaper cost of living not high inflation!
 

kherg007

Well-known member
May 3, 2014
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Wow. Germany had one of the most robust economies in the world.
And the Russians not being a threat? Ask the Poles in the 80s, Afghans in the 70s, Czechs in the 60s, Hungarians in the 50s, and Ukrainians today.
No NATO country has been attacked.

Facts.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
15,964
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The first 3 original reasons for NATO which were to keep the Americans IN Europe, Keep the Soviets OUT of Europe and Keep the Germans DOWN in Europe. RIght here, right now in Europe I bet any citizen of say Italy or Spain or the Netherlands would much rather have a German economy firing on all cylinders rather than the suicidal joke that is Germany right now. This realization is going to be the death blow for NATO and for the American presence on the Continent.

Outside of maybe the Poles, the day is fast approaching when Europeans are going to send Uncle Sam OUT of Europe. The silent smile and chuckle from Niki Haley when Tucker asked her “who blew up the Nord Stream pipelines” is beginning to really burn the asses of even the elite in Europe.

Germany will rise again led by the AfD and Europe will find their way back to the relative peaceful existence based upon shared economic needs which they had with Russia before this clown world cluster **** of an administration took over in the USA. So, NATO falls first and then the EU. The EU will be replaced with a decentralized Union of European Nations and NATO will be replaced with defense and security agreements that will basically be built upon keeping the foreign invaders out. Those foreign invaders are NOT Russians. They are the war and economic “refugees” created by AMERICAN foreign policy and encouraged by AMERICAN NGOs.

The logic is overwhelming that is going to happen.
It's going to take a while to sink in who blew up those pipelines but it will take even longer to replace them.
If Europeans are smart they'll mend fences with Putin and to do that they'll have to sever ties with troublemaking Americans that behave like rattlesnakes.
Comrade, Get a grip.
 
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SchlongConery

License to Shill
Jan 28, 2013
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You don'y have to be an FBI profiler to know there is NO WAY these two replies were written by the same person within minutes of each other,


The first 3 original reasons for NATO which were to keep the Americans IN Europe, Keep the Soviets OUT of Europe and Keep the Germans DOWN in Europe. RIght here, right now in Europe I bet any citizen of say Italy or Spain or the Netherlands would much rather have a German economy firing on all cylinders rather than the suicidal joke that is Germany right now. This realization is going to be the death blow for NATO and for the American presence on the Continent.

Outside of maybe the Poles, the day is fast approaching when Europeans are going to send Uncle Sam OUT of Europe. The silent smile and chuckle from Niki Haley when Tucker asked her “who blew up the Nord Stream pipelines” is beginning to really burn the asses of even the elite in Europe.

Germany will rise again led by the AfD and Europe will find their way back to the relative peaceful existence based upon shared economic needs which they had with Russia before this clown world cluster **** of an administration took over in the USA. So, NATO falls first and then the EU. The EU will be replaced with a decentralized Union of European Nations and NATO will be replaced with defense and security agreements that will basically be built upon keeping the foreign invaders out. Those foreign invaders are NOT Russians. They are the war and economic “refugees” created by AMERICAN foreign policy and encouraged by AMERICAN NGOs.

The logic is overwhelming that is going to happen.
It's going to take a while to sink in who blew up those pipelines but it will take even longer to replace them.
If Europeans are smart they'll mend fences with Putin and to do that they'll have to sever ties with troublemaking Americans that behave like rattlesnakes.

You mean other countries joined NATO like Sweden & Finland ! It all bullshits that look like wind dressing! !
I enjoyed reading it. That why I post. You leftie ( warmonger) don’t like the reality of msm lying that the bullshits lies that Ukrainian is winning the war. Or that NeoNazi President Zelensky thinks he will will eventually get accepted into NATO. The reality USA don’t give a dam about Ukraine and willingly will use Ukrainian soldiers to fight to the last Ukrainian soldiers that they will move on to China. Ukraine have serves majority of US military industry complex purpose helping them getting rid of their old stock of outdated weapons and helping to rearms USA milItary. The politicians happily glad to receive funding (oops kickbacks. donation) from the MIC for the reelection campaign . Destroying the Destruction of Northstream natural gas pipelines was one of the American objectives, that benefits American economy by destroy Germany competitive industries ! When the German people fed up of recession they will demand the new Germany party AfG to leave NATO. NATOis finished and EU is finishEd without Germany when the German people realized they had been used! Germany people prefer peace and closer ties and cheap natural gas with Russia to help their economies to stay competitive .
They care about affordable energy and jobs!!! And cheaper cost of living not high inflation!
:cool:
 
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NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
Mar 8, 2017
7,068
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You leftie ( warmonger)
Yeah, you show them lefty warmongers past and present whats what like the Hero you are.

Lefties like Churchill who wanted a go at the USSR just after WWII. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable
Patton who ditto
Doug Out Doug who wanted to attack China during the Korean War
Thatcher who was willing to undergo a very risky war to defend some sheep fuckers on UK clay
Reagan who, well, wasn't above arming the Afghans and standing up to the Russians.
Bush 1 and 2 [do I even have to explain why they are on the list.
Don't forget those fucking leftists like Republican house reps https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/co...us-support-ukraine-aid-overwhelming-rcna78034
Pierre Poilievre https://www.conservative.ca/statement-from-conservative-leader-pierre-poilievre-on-vyshyvanka-day/


All of those "leftist" warmongers who if they were in this situation would support Ukraine to the hilt, probably more than we are now and show Russia what's what.
All those slimy little communist-shit, twinkle-toed cocksuckers. Yeah you show them.
Hopefully under your leadership we can defeat the reds in Canada and drive Pierre Poilievre and his leftist warmongers into defeat.

Or...
Your constant reference to lefty warmongers 1: Shows that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about and 2: You are basically on about this us and them bullshit regardless of reality
I sure as hell am not a leftist, and I am all for supporting Ukraine. Outside of Trumptards there are many.

Or maybe you don't actually understand the words you are using, much like claiming NATO is shrinking or Ukraine is losing.

Fucking clown shoes.
 

NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
Mar 8, 2017
7,068
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Just flagging that for those of you who might have missed it.
I missed it, I hope you remind him of this during every German election in the future, not that he has the understanding or the shame to understand.

Of course they are pro Russian, which for some reason... doesn't make them warmongers somehow? I donno.
 

NotADcotor

His most imperial galactic atheistic majesty.
Mar 8, 2017
7,068
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If he is not two or more people, he is definitely copy pasting responses or posts from other forums or groups he is a part of.
I'd go with that.
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
75,724
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You don'y have to be an FBI profiler to know there is NO WAY these two replies were written by the same person within minutes of each other,

:cool:
His real name is Ivan Mectin and he lives in a quiet suburb north of Moscow where he raises Siberian Forest Cats for food.

Every Tuesday morning promptly at 8:45 a black Zhil sedan - and they're all black by the way - idles in front of Mectin's dacha and he gets in. An escort of 3 motorcycles cops - always 3, never 2 or 4 - escorts him to an anonymous office building off Tverskaya Street. He steps inside the front door of the building. A doorman rushes to hold the door for him. And as he walks briskly towards the elevator, an attractive, but antiseptic blonde secretary waring a light blue business suit hands him a folder saying "Dobro Yutro, Ivan Ivanovich." The folder is always a mint green colour with large red script on the front.....
 

SchlongConery

License to Shill
Jan 28, 2013
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His real name is Ivan Mectin and he lives in a quiet suburb north of Moscow where he raises Siberian Forest Cats for food.

Every Tuesday morning promptly at 8:45 a black Zhil sedan - and they're all black by the way - idles in front of Mectin's dacha and he gets in. An escort of 3 motorcycles cops - always 3, never 2 or 4 - escorts him to an anonymous office building off Tverskaya Street. He steps inside the front door of the building. A doorman rushes to hold the door for him. And as he walks briskly towards the elevator, an attractive, but antiseptic blonde secretary waring a light blue business suit hands him a folder saying "Dobro Yutro, Ivan Ivanovich." The folder is always a mint green colour with large red script on the front.....

But that is just one of them! ;)
 
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SchlongConery

License to Shill
Jan 28, 2013
12,868
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It's been obvious for a while, not just the style differences but also the different vocabulary and spelling.

Exactly. Like night and day.

I've noticed this in many posts he makes. I dismiss the copy and paste words as I know he is just pasting canned spam but his actual words he posts are from completely different personalities. You'd recognize this in a moment if you met the same personas in person.

And in the example I referred to for the above post, there is no way that someone can dumb down or smarten up that much between posts made a few minutes apart.
 
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Addict2sex

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Jan 29, 2017
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Zelensky "is in this extraordinarily desperate situation, he is disintegrating. His forces are in ruins, hundreds of thousands of people have been killed for nothing...There is no leadership in the White House...We are in the hands of a man who is not entirely mentally stable. Increasingly we are becoming a third world country...Somebody needs to be fired. Obviously we know the man at the top needs to go away. The rest of these people, they need to be held accountable,"

Exact Quoted by ~ Colonel Douglas MacGregor.
………………………………………


PS. I told you MSM & Biden & Ukraine have been lying about Ukraine winning ( ” lies like IRAQ WMD” )!!! Colonel Douglas MacGregor should be running for President or be VP running mate with TrumP in 2024. Trump would had ended this stupid Proxy war with Russia in 48 hours like he mentioned before. Col Douglas MacGregor is one of the few American who speak the truth!
PPS. "After Suffering Heavy Losses, Ukrainians Paused To Rethink Strategy" still sought to put a positive spin on the dire situation for Kiev:
 
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