Reverie

The Official Story of the Ukraine War Grossly Misleads

oil&gas

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Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
Frank T. Fitzgerald
April 19, 2023

Just after Russia attacked Ukraine on February 24, 2022, President Biden walked into the East Room of the White House and condemned the invasion with a barrage of adjectives: unprovoked, unjustified, brutal, without cause, premeditated, unnecessary. One of these quickly rose to prominence. Following Biden’s initial statement, government spokespeople, the mainstream media, professional pundits and many others routinely call the war in Ukraine "unprovoked."

It is a well-chosen term, a rhetorical bon mot, and central to the official story that sole responsibility for the war in Ukraine belongs to Russia and Putin alone. It is also a term that gets continually reinforced by rampant speculation seeking the origin of the invasion in Putin’s brain: Is he insane? Terminally ill? Suffering form a messiah complex? Obsessed with reconstituting Tsarist Russia or the Soviet Union. Based on patchy, ambiguous or often no evidence, the list is potentially endless but always dubious.

The overriding function of presenting the war in Ukraine as a crime perpetrated by one country, even by one allegedly whacked-out leader, is to relieve the U.S., NATO and actors within Ukraine of even the slightest responsibility for the war. Russia and Putin are the only perpetrators; everyone else is either an innocent bystander or an unfortunate victim – so goes the official story.

A much-needed antidote to this story is provided by Benjamin Abellow’s recent book, How The West Brought War To Ukraine. Based on the critiques of a range of scholars, US government officials and military observers, and on his own investigations and interpretations, Abelow shows in compelling detail how the official story misleads. His short, seventy-one-page book is a compendium of the many ways that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was provoked.

In the current political climate dominated by the official story, saying any such thing easily gets one tagged an apologist for Putin or Russia. Abelow makes clear, however, that he is neither a fan of Putin nor a supporter of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Without specifying what they were, Abelow contends that Russia and Putin had alternatives to war. The implication, of course, is that these alternatives should have been pursued. Since they were not, considerable responsibility for the horrifying and condemnable war in Ukraine, insists Abelow, falls on Russia and Putin.

But Abelow departs from the official story by showing that others were also responsible for the war in Ukraine. Although beyond the scope of and never mentioned in Abelow’s book, these would include various political actors within Ukraine itself, all of whom have been amply and deftly explored in Richard Sakwa’s Frontline Ukraine. Abelow’s focus is on the many ways in which the war in Ukraine was provoked by the US and NATO.

Here are a fraction of the provocations that Abelow examines:

During German reunification in 1990-91, US and NATO officials assured Soviet leaders that NATO would never expand into Eastern Europe. Despite such initial assurances and subsequent Russian complaints about having been duped, NATO proceeded to expand right up to the borders of the Russian Federation. Western assurances were never reduced to writing, but their abrogation undermined Russian trust in Western promises. Many prominent diplomatic experts, including George F. Kennan, famous for formulating the Cold War policy of containing Communism, warned that disregarding Russia’s real security concerns and pushing NATO eastward was foolhardy and would likely lead to war.

As NATO expanded, the US and NATO engaged in a variety of actions that Russian leaders would predictably see as militarily threatening. The U.S. withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic and the intermediate-range nuclear missile treaties, and then ignored Russian attempts to negotiate a bilateral moratorium on deployments. The U.S. deployed nuclear-capable missile launch systems in Romania and planned them for Poland and perhaps elsewhere. The US and NATO conducted live-fire rocket exercises in Estonia to practice striking targets within Russia, and the US and NATO conducted massive 32-nation military training exercises near Russia’s border.

In Ukraine specifically, the US and NATO exacerbated the country’s internal divisions. The US involved itself in the 2014 coup against the democratically elected President of Ukraine and in the choice of his replacement. Instead of pressing for a negotiated settlement between Ukraine’s post-coup government and pro-Russian autonomists in the Donbas, the US poured armaments into Ukraine, stepped up military training of Ukrainian forces, and supported ultra-nationalist and anti-Russian (some Neo-Nazi) groups and militias,

Even on the precipice of war in late 2021, the U.S. and NATO refused to renounce plans to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. Indeed, the US refused to even discuss the question.

Abelow makes two convincing points about these US and NATO provocations:

First, if Russia had committed even some of the above actions above close to U.S. borders, the US surely would have gone to war, even nuclear war, as it almost did during the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, when the Soviets installed missiles in Cuba.

Second, but for these provocations by the US and NATO, it is virtually inconceivable that Russia would have invaded Ukraine in 2022. The war in Ukraine, with all its horrors and its potential for escalating and spinning out of control, would not today be raging.

Abelow’s conclusion about the war in Ukraine is notable: "when all is taken into account, primary responsibility lies with the West, in particular with the United States." I agree, but it is not necessary to go so far to recognize the importance of Abelow’s arguments. Any reader of Abelow’s book who is not irreversibly blinded by the official story has to see that responsibility for the war in Ukraine is at least shared.

This point is not of just historical interest. For the official story informs not just the question of how the war in Ukraine began but also of how it might be ended. Since the US, NATO and Ukrainian spokespeople persist in viewing Russia and Putin as the war’s sole perpetrators, they insist that the war cannot end until Russia is totally defeated, strategically weakened and forced to return all previously Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. Such goals are not only unrealistic, they block any serious effort to end the war through negotiations.

Realistically, the only alternatives to negotiations now are a long, simmering slog back and forth through Ukrainian fields and towns, a slog that will eventually grind down both sides and grind up their fighters and civilians, or another endless and escalating war that may spread uncontrollably beyond Ukraine and that may end us all in Nuclear Armageddon.

Despite its misleading nature and it ugly consequences, however, the official story is likely to persist. Erasing the official story and ending the war in Ukraine will require more than books like Abelow’s. It will require pushing peace initiatives like China’s (a topic for a future essay), which despite US and NATO attempts to discredit it as biased toward Russia, is remarkably even-handed in seeing the war in Ukraine as a shared responsibility between Russia and the US and NATO. Beyond that, ending the war in Ukraine will require sustained opposition by a growing peace movement, a peace movement that will surely find Abelow’s short book extremely useful.

 

SchlongConery

License to Shill
Jan 28, 2013
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For anyone who wants to read through it go ahead. It is the same shit Kreminton has spent a thousand posts spewing.

USA is bad and forced NATO and Ukraine to force the peace-loving innocent Russia into a proxy war.

It is from yet another one of millions of the "Question everything", "what they don't want you to know" "brave enough to fact facts" secret cabal busting repositories of 'the real truth'.

 

chickenriceandbeans

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2022
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This article is on point and it was my opinion too. I have since changed my opinion slightly.

There are 3 responsible parties:

Russia - for being assholes and invading an independent country.
USA and NATO - for lying and doing everything to provoke Russia.
Ukraine - for having corrupt leaders who sold their country out first to Russia and then to USA.
 

chickenriceandbeans

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2022
480
300
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It is from yet another one of millions of the "Question everything", "what they don't want you to know" "brave enough to fact facts" secret cabal busting repositories of 'the real truth'.
You have to always question everything and always assume that there are things they definitely dont want you to know. Are you seriously saying the official story is to be believed without the slightest amount of skepticism?
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,498
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Noam Chomsky said: "Of course the war in Ukraine was provoked. Why else would everybody use the term "an unprovoked" war".
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
61,291
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...
USA and NATO - for lying and doing everything to provoke Russia.
...
As if Russia and China aren't constantly trying to provoke the US.

That's how international relations work but sure, try to blame someone other than the people who chose to invade on a pathetically stupid pretext (denazification tripe - while having their PMC leader covered in SS tattoos).
 
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y2kmark

Class of 69...
May 19, 2002
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Lewiston, NY
Frank T. Fitzgerald
April 19, 2023

Just after Russia attacked Ukraine on February 24, 2022, President Biden walked into the East Room of the White House and condemned the invasion with a barrage of adjectives: unprovoked, unjustified, brutal, without cause, premeditated, unnecessary. One of these quickly rose to prominence. Following Biden’s initial statement, government spokespeople, the mainstream media, professional pundits and many others routinely call the war in Ukraine "unprovoked."

It is a well-chosen term, a rhetorical bon mot, and central to the official story that sole responsibility for the war in Ukraine belongs to Russia and Putin alone. It is also a term that gets continually reinforced by rampant speculation seeking the origin of the invasion in Putin’s brain: Is he insane? Terminally ill? Suffering form a messiah complex? Obsessed with reconstituting Tsarist Russia or the Soviet Union. Based on patchy, ambiguous or often no evidence, the list is potentially endless but always dubious.

The overriding function of presenting the war in Ukraine as a crime perpetrated by one country, even by one allegedly whacked-out leader, is to relieve the U.S., NATO and actors within Ukraine of even the slightest responsibility for the war. Russia and Putin are the only perpetrators; everyone else is either an innocent bystander or an unfortunate victim – so goes the official story.

A much-needed antidote to this story is provided by Benjamin Abellow’s recent book, How The West Brought War To Ukraine. Based on the critiques of a range of scholars, US government officials and military observers, and on his own investigations and interpretations, Abelow shows in compelling detail how the official story misleads. His short, seventy-one-page book is a compendium of the many ways that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was provoked.

In the current political climate dominated by the official story, saying any such thing easily gets one tagged an apologist for Putin or Russia. Abelow makes clear, however, that he is neither a fan of Putin nor a supporter of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Without specifying what they were, Abelow contends that Russia and Putin had alternatives to war. The implication, of course, is that these alternatives should have been pursued. Since they were not, considerable responsibility for the horrifying and condemnable war in Ukraine, insists Abelow, falls on Russia and Putin.

But Abelow departs from the official story by showing that others were also responsible for the war in Ukraine. Although beyond the scope of and never mentioned in Abelow’s book, these would include various political actors within Ukraine itself, all of whom have been amply and deftly explored in Richard Sakwa’s Frontline Ukraine. Abelow’s focus is on the many ways in which the war in Ukraine was provoked by the US and NATO.

Here are a fraction of the provocations that Abelow examines:

During German reunification in 1990-91, US and NATO officials assured Soviet leaders that NATO would never expand into Eastern Europe. Despite such initial assurances and subsequent Russian complaints about having been duped, NATO proceeded to expand right up to the borders of the Russian Federation. Western assurances were never reduced to writing, but their abrogation undermined Russian trust in Western promises. Many prominent diplomatic experts, including George F. Kennan, famous for formulating the Cold War policy of containing Communism, warned that disregarding Russia’s real security concerns and pushing NATO eastward was foolhardy and would likely lead to war.

As NATO expanded, the US and NATO engaged in a variety of actions that Russian leaders would predictably see as militarily threatening. The U.S. withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic and the intermediate-range nuclear missile treaties, and then ignored Russian attempts to negotiate a bilateral moratorium on deployments. The U.S. deployed nuclear-capable missile launch systems in Romania and planned them for Poland and perhaps elsewhere. The US and NATO conducted live-fire rocket exercises in Estonia to practice striking targets within Russia, and the US and NATO conducted massive 32-nation military training exercises near Russia’s border.

In Ukraine specifically, the US and NATO exacerbated the country’s internal divisions. The US involved itself in the 2014 coup against the democratically elected President of Ukraine and in the choice of his replacement. Instead of pressing for a negotiated settlement between Ukraine’s post-coup government and pro-Russian autonomists in the Donbas, the US poured armaments into Ukraine, stepped up military training of Ukrainian forces, and supported ultra-nationalist and anti-Russian (some Neo-Nazi) groups and militias,

Even on the precipice of war in late 2021, the U.S. and NATO refused to renounce plans to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. Indeed, the US refused to even discuss the question.

Abelow makes two convincing points about these US and NATO provocations:

First, if Russia had committed even some of the above actions above close to U.S. borders, the US surely would have gone to war, even nuclear war, as it almost did during the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, when the Soviets installed missiles in Cuba.

Second, but for these provocations by the US and NATO, it is virtually inconceivable that Russia would have invaded Ukraine in 2022. The war in Ukraine, with all its horrors and its potential for escalating and spinning out of control, would not today be raging.

Abelow’s conclusion about the war in Ukraine is notable: "when all is taken into account, primary responsibility lies with the West, in particular with the United States." I agree, but it is not necessary to go so far to recognize the importance of Abelow’s arguments. Any reader of Abelow’s book who is not irreversibly blinded by the official story has to see that responsibility for the war in Ukraine is at least shared.

This point is not of just historical interest. For the official story informs not just the question of how the war in Ukraine began but also of how it might be ended. Since the US, NATO and Ukrainian spokespeople persist in viewing Russia and Putin as the war’s sole perpetrators, they insist that the war cannot end until Russia is totally defeated, strategically weakened and forced to return all previously Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. Such goals are not only unrealistic, they block any serious effort to end the war through negotiations.

Realistically, the only alternatives to negotiations now are a long, simmering slog back and forth through Ukrainian fields and towns, a slog that will eventually grind down both sides and grind up their fighters and civilians, or another endless and escalating war that may spread uncontrollably beyond Ukraine and that may end us all in Nuclear Armageddon.

Despite its misleading nature and it ugly consequences, however, the official story is likely to persist. Erasing the official story and ending the war in Ukraine will require more than books like Abelow’s. It will require pushing peace initiatives like China’s (a topic for a future essay), which despite US and NATO attempts to discredit it as biased toward Russia, is remarkably even-handed in seeing the war in Ukraine as a shared responsibility between Russia and the US and NATO. Beyond that, ending the war in Ukraine will require sustained opposition by a growing peace movement, a peace movement that will surely find Abelow’s short book extremely useful.

The old "you provoked us into crossing your borders and invading you" proposition. Does the Hitler estate get royalties?
 
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Combat dog

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
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Frank T. Fitzgerald
April 19, 2023

Just after Russia attacked Ukraine on February 24, 2022, President Biden walked into the East Room of the White House and condemned the invasion with a barrage of adjectives: unprovoked, unjustified, brutal, without cause, premeditated, unnecessary. One of these quickly rose to prominence. Following Biden’s initial statement, government spokespeople, the mainstream media, professional pundits and many others routinely call the war in Ukraine "unprovoked."

It is a well-chosen term, a rhetorical bon mot, and central to the official story that sole responsibility for the war in Ukraine belongs to Russia and Putin alone. It is also a term that gets continually reinforced by rampant speculation seeking the origin of the invasion in Putin’s brain: Is he insane? Terminally ill? Suffering form a messiah complex? Obsessed with reconstituting Tsarist Russia or the Soviet Union. Based on patchy, ambiguous or often no evidence, the list is potentially endless but always dubious.

The overriding function of presenting the war in Ukraine as a crime perpetrated by one country, even by one allegedly whacked-out leader, is to relieve the U.S., NATO and actors within Ukraine of even the slightest responsibility for the war. Russia and Putin are the only perpetrators; everyone else is either an innocent bystander or an unfortunate victim – so goes the official story.

A much-needed antidote to this story is provided by Benjamin Abellow’s recent book, How The West Brought War To Ukraine. Based on the critiques of a range of scholars, US government officials and military observers, and on his own investigations and interpretations, Abelow shows in compelling detail how the official story misleads. His short, seventy-one-page book is a compendium of the many ways that the Russian invasion of Ukraine was provoked.

In the current political climate dominated by the official story, saying any such thing easily gets one tagged an apologist for Putin or Russia. Abelow makes clear, however, that he is neither a fan of Putin nor a supporter of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Without specifying what they were, Abelow contends that Russia and Putin had alternatives to war. The implication, of course, is that these alternatives should have been pursued. Since they were not, considerable responsibility for the horrifying and condemnable war in Ukraine, insists Abelow, falls on Russia and Putin.

But Abelow departs from the official story by showing that others were also responsible for the war in Ukraine. Although beyond the scope of and never mentioned in Abelow’s book, these would include various political actors within Ukraine itself, all of whom have been amply and deftly explored in Richard Sakwa’s Frontline Ukraine. Abelow’s focus is on the many ways in which the war in Ukraine was provoked by the US and NATO.

Here are a fraction of the provocations that Abelow examines:

During German reunification in 1990-91, US and NATO officials assured Soviet leaders that NATO would never expand into Eastern Europe. Despite such initial assurances and subsequent Russian complaints about having been duped, NATO proceeded to expand right up to the borders of the Russian Federation. Western assurances were never reduced to writing, but their abrogation undermined Russian trust in Western promises. Many prominent diplomatic experts, including George F. Kennan, famous for formulating the Cold War policy of containing Communism, warned that disregarding Russia’s real security concerns and pushing NATO eastward was foolhardy and would likely lead to war.

As NATO expanded, the US and NATO engaged in a variety of actions that Russian leaders would predictably see as militarily threatening. The U.S. withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic and the intermediate-range nuclear missile treaties, and then ignored Russian attempts to negotiate a bilateral moratorium on deployments. The U.S. deployed nuclear-capable missile launch systems in Romania and planned them for Poland and perhaps elsewhere. The US and NATO conducted live-fire rocket exercises in Estonia to practice striking targets within Russia, and the US and NATO conducted massive 32-nation military training exercises near Russia’s border.

In Ukraine specifically, the US and NATO exacerbated the country’s internal divisions. The US involved itself in the 2014 coup against the democratically elected President of Ukraine and in the choice of his replacement. Instead of pressing for a negotiated settlement between Ukraine’s post-coup government and pro-Russian autonomists in the Donbas, the US poured armaments into Ukraine, stepped up military training of Ukrainian forces, and supported ultra-nationalist and anti-Russian (some Neo-Nazi) groups and militias,

Even on the precipice of war in late 2021, the U.S. and NATO refused to renounce plans to incorporate Ukraine into NATO. Indeed, the US refused to even discuss the question.

Abelow makes two convincing points about these US and NATO provocations:

First, if Russia had committed even some of the above actions above close to U.S. borders, the US surely would have gone to war, even nuclear war, as it almost did during the 1962 Cuban missile crisis, when the Soviets installed missiles in Cuba.

Second, but for these provocations by the US and NATO, it is virtually inconceivable that Russia would have invaded Ukraine in 2022. The war in Ukraine, with all its horrors and its potential for escalating and spinning out of control, would not today be raging.

Abelow’s conclusion about the war in Ukraine is notable: "when all is taken into account, primary responsibility lies with the West, in particular with the United States." I agree, but it is not necessary to go so far to recognize the importance of Abelow’s arguments. Any reader of Abelow’s book who is not irreversibly blinded by the official story has to see that responsibility for the war in Ukraine is at least shared.

This point is not of just historical interest. For the official story informs not just the question of how the war in Ukraine began but also of how it might be ended. Since the US, NATO and Ukrainian spokespeople persist in viewing Russia and Putin as the war’s sole perpetrators, they insist that the war cannot end until Russia is totally defeated, strategically weakened and forced to return all previously Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. Such goals are not only unrealistic, they block any serious effort to end the war through negotiations.

Realistically, the only alternatives to negotiations now are a long, simmering slog back and forth through Ukrainian fields and towns, a slog that will eventually grind down both sides and grind up their fighters and civilians, or another endless and escalating war that may spread uncontrollably beyond Ukraine and that may end us all in Nuclear Armageddon.

Despite its misleading nature and it ugly consequences, however, the official story is likely to persist. Erasing the official story and ending the war in Ukraine will require more than books like Abelow’s. It will require pushing peace initiatives like China’s (a topic for a future essay), which despite US and NATO attempts to discredit it as biased toward Russia, is remarkably even-handed in seeing the war in Ukraine as a shared responsibility between Russia and the US and NATO. Beyond that, ending the war in Ukraine will require sustained opposition by a growing peace movement, a peace movement that will surely find Abelow’s short book extremely useful.

I am more than impressed by your analysis and opinion. The US and NATO caused the entire conflict and Ukraine is not an innocent bystander. The Ukrainian government has persecuted many of its Russian citizens, to the point that in some areas the Russian language as well as religion is prohibited. Although I do not condone the war, the war could have been entirely prevented by the US. If Ukraine was so vital to Europe, why didn’t NATO station troops inside Ukraine as a deterrent during the Russian military buildup on the border? Why did Slow Joe first offer Zelenskyy a ride out of the country? I believe most of the world governments are corrupt, but the Ukrainian government takes the cake! Look at the Hunter, Biden Ukrainian fiasco. Ask yourself how many crackheads can be appointed to a Board of Directors without any experience. The entire situation stinks, and as an American, I wish all funds and support for Ukraine would be cut off. That would facilitate less people losing their lives because of government corruption. As you eloquently pointed out, if the same thing happened to the United States, that happened to Russia, the United States would go to war in a heartbeat. Nobody can see inside Putin‘s head, and I am offended that government narrative suggests that he wants to conquer Europe. I also know from sources, I cannot disclose, contrary to media and government statements, American special forces are playing an active role in the conflict. Imagine that, the government lies to which population, who would’ve thought.?
 

jcpro

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Jan 31, 2014
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I am more than impressed by your analysis and opinion. The US and NATO caused the entire conflict and Ukraine is not an innocent bystander. The Ukrainian government has persecuted many of its Russian citizens, to the point that in some areas the Russian language as well as religion is prohibited. Although I do not condone the war, the war could have been entirely prevented by the US. If Ukraine was so vital to Europe, why didn’t NATO station troops inside Ukraine as a deterrent during the Russian military buildup on the border? Why did Slow Joe first offer Zelenskyy a ride out of the country? I believe most of the world governments are corrupt, but the Ukrainian government takes the cake! Look at the Hunter, Biden Ukrainian fiasco. Ask yourself how many crackheads can be appointed to a Board of Directors without any experience. The entire situation stinks, and as an American, I wish all funds and support for Ukraine would be cut off. That would facilitate less people losing their lives because of government corruption. As you eloquently pointed out, if the same thing happened to the United States, that happened to Russia, the United States would go to war in a heartbeat. Nobody can see inside Putin‘s head, and I am offended that government narrative suggests that he wants to conquer Europe. I also know from sources, I cannot disclose, contrary to media and government statements, American special forces are playing an active role in the conflict. Imagine that, the government lies to which population, who would’ve thought.?
If Joe stops financing the war, it is unlikely for Hunter to regain his grift in Ukraine. LOL!!!
 

Combat dog

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Feb 17, 2023
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If Joe stops financing the war, it is unlikely for Hunter to regain his grift in Ukraine. LOL!!!
As funny as that is, it might contain the truth. I used the wooden spoon analogy in another thread, probably because my mom used it on me often. She used to tell me, ”once a liar, your always going to be a liar” and Joe Biden is a proven liar!
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
75,680
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I am more than impressed by your analysis and opinion. The US and NATO caused the entire conflict and Ukraine is not an innocent bystander. The Ukrainian government has persecuted many of its Russian citizens, to the point that in some areas the Russian language as well as religion is prohibited. Although I do not condone the war, the war could have been entirely prevented by the US. If Ukraine was so vital to Europe, why didn’t NATO station troops inside Ukraine as a deterrent during the Russian military buildup on the border? Why did Slow Joe first offer Zelenskyy a ride out of the country? I believe most of the world governments are corrupt, but the Ukrainian government takes the cake! Look at the Hunter, Biden Ukrainian fiasco. Ask yourself how many crackheads can be appointed to a Board of Directors without any experience. The entire situation stinks, and as an American, I wish all funds and support for Ukraine would be cut off. That would facilitate less people losing their lives because of government corruption. As you eloquently pointed out, if the same thing happened to the United States, that happened to Russia, the United States would go to war in a heartbeat. Nobody can see inside Putin‘s head, and I am offended that government narrative suggests that he wants to conquer Europe. I also know from sources, I cannot disclose, contrary to media and government statements, American special forces are playing an active role in the conflict. Imagine that, the government lies to which population, who would’ve thought.?
You're basically a machine for recording and repeating Fox News meta themes.
 

Combat dog

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Feb 17, 2023
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You're basically a machine for recording and repeating Fox News meta themes.
Monkey butt, you’re back! I normally would ignore you, but I just want to clarify that I don’t watch Fox, or CNN. If I watch the news, it is the BBC, which is a rarity. Most of my opinions are based on experience and/or people, that either live and/or work in a position in the know, which simply means, those individuals walk the walk. Because your opinion doesn’t matter to me and I think you’re stupid, you are short sided, and cannot be educated, I will never reply to your post again. Have a great life!
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
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As funny as that is, it might contain the truth. I used the wooden spoon analogy in another thread, probably because my mom used it on me often. She used to tell me, ”once a liar, your always going to be a liar” and Joe Biden is a proven liar!
The old "how can you tell when a politician is lying" joke?

Do you think Tsar Vlad lied when he gave his justifications for invading?
 

toguy5252

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Jun 22, 2009
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The apologists for Russia just keep spouting the same talking points instead of listening to Putin's own explanation. When a dictaor speaks belive him.


“As I said in my previous address, one cannot look at what is happening there without compassion. It was simply impossible to endure all this. It was necessary to stop this nightmare immediately – the genocide against the millions of people living there, who rely only on Russia, hope only on us. It was these aspirations, feelings, pain of people that were for us the main motive for deciding to recognise the people’s republics of Donbas.”


“What I think is important to emphasise further. In order to achieve their own goals, the leading NATO countries support extreme nationalists and neo-Nazis in Ukraine in everything, who, in turn, will never forgive the Crimeans and Sevastopol residents for their free choice – reunification with Russia.”
 
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Anbarandy

Bitter House****
Apr 27, 2006
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Wow!

It's as if someone prepped in mid-February for the eventuality of this outcome.

The HT trigger finger must be getting itchy by now.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
13,318
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Ghawar
Whether what Putin said is truthful or false is of little relevance
as far as I am concerned. Invaders invariably spun their real intent
behind the invasion. The U.S. and NATO can disbelieve what Putin
said and still send sufficient aid to Zelensky to win the war. That is
not going to happen. There are already signs that France and Germany
are sucking up to Putin's best friend Xi.

The apologists for Russia just keep spouting the same talking points instead of listening to Putin's own explanation. When a dictaor speaks belive him.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
15,964
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Whether what Putin said is truthful or false is of little relevance
as far as I am concerned. Invaders invariably spun their real intent
behind the invasion. The U.S. and NATO can disbelieve what Putin
said and still send sufficient aid to Zelensky to win the war. That is
not going to happen. There are already signs that France and Germany
are sucking up to Putin's best friend Xi.
So you can read his mind and his real motives and the wrold should ignore his stated reason. Wouldnt it have made more sense him to have given your reason if what he was trying to do is halt and advances by NATO. Your explanation is nonsensical.
 

Combat dog

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Feb 17, 2023
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I am truly ………super truly, not a real term, but nonetheless, I am a combat veteran. Not just the TV version of cops and robbers, but the for the lack of an acceptable term, special operator. Everyone in SOCOM hates that term, but the media eats it up and the media controls the way sheeple think. Although I haven’t been to Ukraine for 7 years, anyone who has been there and completed “government work”, knows how the world turns. Even a “special operator” is required to sign an NDA, which is the reason people like me cannot spill the beans……so to speak. If Joe Biden, and Justin Trudeau, both proven liars, say something, you must ask yourself, is it the truth. A liar must continue to lie, to cover the previous lie. It isn’t rocket science, but people are so busy making mortgages, they don’t have time to think, which is what Joe Biden, and Justin Trudeau want.
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
13,318
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Ghawar
There was very likely more to the real reason for the U.S.
to invade Iraq than WMD. The WH and the CIA didn't owe
the world any explanation of their true intent behind the
invasion. Likewise Putin could have reason other than
reunification to invade Ukraine which he has no obligation
to reveal to the world. BTW, this is not meant to be a justification
of Putin's invasion of a sovereign state.


So you can read his mind and his real motives and the wrold should ignore his stated reason. Wouldnt it have made more sense him to have given your reason if what he was trying to do is halt and advances by NATO. Your explanation is nonsensical.
 

toguy5252

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2009
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6,107
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I am truly ………super truly, not a real term, but nonetheless, I am a combat veteran. Not just the TV version of cops and robbers, but the for the lack of an acceptable term, special operator. Everyone in SOCOM hates that term, but the media eats it up and the media controls the way sheeple think. Although I haven’t been to Ukraine for 7 years, anyone who has been there and completed “government work”, knows how the world turns. Even a “special operator” is required to sign an NDA, which is the reason people like me cannot spill the beans……so to speak. If Joe Biden, and Justin Trudeau, both proven liars, say something, you must ask yourself, is it the truth. A liar must continue to lie, to cover the previous lie. It isn’t rocket science, but people are so busy making mortgages, they don’t have time to think, which is what Joe Biden, and Justin Trudeau want.
Quite right. the veracity of joe and jt should be measured against the only person who has never lied. NEVER. You know, the only twice impeached and indicted former POTUS in history.
 
Toronto Escorts