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Anti-NATO protests in Europe

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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If there were to be a ceasefire wouldn't that effectively finalize Putin's illegal annexations?
No, it would just end the killing.
 
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Leimonis

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2020
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No, it would just end the killing.
what if it would not?
If you allow me to take your bicycle to avoid a fight, why would I not come next year to take your car and your wife? Why would I stop when you already proved that you are a coward? Once a bitch always a bitch
 

oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
what if it would not?
If you allow me to take your bicycle to avoid a fight, why would I not come next year to take your car and your wife?
A ceasefire deal does not have to allow Putin to seize Ukraine's land.

I think it would benefit Zelensky more than Putin. Ukraine's army needs time
to regroup and NATO members also has to replenish their arsenals. Also
remember EU can keep up with the sanctions to weaken Russia's economy
after the war.
 

SchlongConery

License to Shill
Jan 28, 2013
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They dont calculate the 300,000. They only calculate the 160,000 that Russia has lost. That is their measure of success.
I noticed that Ukraine doesn't publish their numbers. I can understand it from a strategic pov but nonetheless I'd like to know. I get so many different 'estimates" that I don't know which is reasonably accurate.

Any suggestions on numbers or where to look?

As for teh Russian casualties. That is no measure of success simply because Putin, and Russia historically, places zero value on their citizens lives. Russian commanders have always referred to their soldiers as meat.

I've heard it said that Russia doesn't have citizens, it has a population. Putin will just keep sending meat until he runs out of ways to get them there. He'll even send them after he runs out of ammo.
 

krealtarron

Hardened Member
Nov 12, 2021
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I noticed that Ukraine doesn't publish their numbers. I can understand it from a strategic pov but nonetheless I'd like to know. I get so many different 'estimates" that I don't know which is reasonably accurate.

Any suggestions on numbers or where to look?

As for teh Russian casualties. That is no measure of success simply because Putin, and Russia historically, places zero value on their citizens lives. Russian commanders have always referred to their soldiers as meat.

I've heard it said that Russia doesn't have citizens, it has a population. Putin will just keep sending meat until he runs out of ways to get them there. He'll even send them after he runs out of ammo.
What I have read is its about the same give or take a few. Obviously each side will overestimate the other, and underestimate their own, so not sure what to trust.
 

Leimonis

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2020
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A ceasefire deal does not have to allow Putin to seize Ukraine's land.
I'll explain it to you as if you were 5yo:
if I take your bicycle and you stop fighting for it - it is my bicycle now. Full stop.
 
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oil&gas

Well-known member
Apr 16, 2002
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Ghawar
I'll explain it to you as if you were 5yo:
if I take your bicycle and you stop fighting for it - it is my bicycle now. Full stop.
I'll explain it to you like I do to someone with common sense.

Someone took your bicycle and I stopped you from fighting him
when the thief had just taken a good beating and you were about
to take back your bicycle then yes I did in a way allow that person
to take away your bicycle.

In a different scenario someone beat you up, took your bicycle
and then went on to seize your wallet and other belongings. He
was stopped and had to be content with stealing just one item
from you. You, having been saved from losing everything, could
now go back home. You can still recover your bicycle after you
recuperate.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
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On Wednesday the Chinese foreign ministry hit back, charging that Washington is "adding fuel to the fire" of the conflict by its "continuous supply" of weapons to the battlefield. Spokesman Wang Wenbin was asked directly about Kirby and Blinken's comments from the day prior.

"The US side claims that China's stance isn’t impartial. But is it impartial to continuously supply weapons to the battlefield? Is it impartial to constantly escalate the conflict? Is it impartial to allow the effects of the crisis to spill over globally?" Wang said.

"We advise the American side to rethink its own stance on the Ukraine issue, turn away from the erroneous path of adding fuel to the fire, and stop shifting the blame to China," he added. The spokesman further insisted Beijing has "no selfish motives on the Ukraine issue, has not stood idly by... or sought profit for itself," but that "what China has done boils down to one thing, that is, to promote peace talks."

He went on to assert that contrary to popular assumptions in the West, the global community stands by China on the side of diplomatically pursuing peace. According to a transcript:

On the Ukraine issue, voices for peace and rationality are building. Most countries support easing tensions, stand for peace talks, and are against adding fuel to the fire. This is also China’s position. President Xi Jinping’s visit to Russia is a journey of friendship, cooperation and peace. It has been warmly received internationally. We call on the US to reflect on its own role in the Ukraine issue, stop fueling the flames, and stop deflecting the blame on China.
Wang spelled out that "We will continue to stand firm on the side of peace and dialogue and on the right side of history and work together with the rest of the world to play a constructive part in facilitating a political settlement of the Ukraine issue."

To the surprise of many, Ukraine's President Zelensky on Tuesday invited China to start talks on a path forward based on offering a "Ukraine formula" for peace negotiations. It's unclear what Beijing's response will be, but it was widely seen as an unexpected and positive overture. It has also become clear that whatever peace talks might come to fruition involving China mediation, the US is not going to lead, but will likely be sidelined - despite the closeness to Kiev.
 
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Leimonis

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2020
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I'll explain it to you like I do to someone with common sense.

Someone took your bicycle and I stopped you from fighting him
when the thief had just taken a good beating and you were about
to take back your bicycle then yes I did in a way allow that person
to take away your bicycle.

In a different scenario someone beat you up, took your bicycle
and then went on to seize your wallet and other belongings. He
was stopped and had to be content with stealing just one item
from you. You, having been saved from losing everything, could
now go back home. You can still recover your bicycle after you
recuperate.
"just one item" was annexed in 2014. It's called Crimea peninsula. Russia is way past that now.
1679556290407.png
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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I don't think Putin actually sees Zelensky as a nazi. Whether his judgement
is right or not I think Putin probably believe he is rooting out nazi elements
in parts of Ukraine.
"Nazi" just means "Enemy of Russia" in that rhetoric, though.
When Russia calls for regime change in Ukraine, it is because the Ukrainian government disagrees with Russia and is therefore a Nazi government.

Don't mistake it having anything to do with white nationalism or actual followers of some neo-Nazi tradition.
Like the rest of Europe, Ukraine has those elements, but that isn't what Russia is talking about here.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Whether or not he sees him that way look at his rhetoric and for that matter look at MJT and the gang. A cease fire would just preserve the status quo which gives Putin Crimea and a large swath of Ukraine.
You have to remember that the people most calling for a cease fire now called for a cease fire earlier as well.

As soon as Russia had gained territory but weren't able to overthrow the regime, they started calling for a ceasefire to lock in the gains Russia made.

It's like tax cuts for the rich and the GOP - no matter what the situation on the ground is, the solution is the same.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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I doubt any ceasefire deal not even one proposed by China
would demand Ukraine to give up its right to fight back in the
future.
Ceasefire is different from a treaty.

Ceasefire doesn't end the war. It puts things on pause for a bit.
Sometimes it has some "the war can end with these future next steps".

Any actual treaty or longer term solution will require security guarantees, and Russia has been quite clear it doesn't want those if they leave Ukraine the ability to make independent decisions.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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A Ceasefire is always preferable to continued fighting. It is the first step to starting negotiations about ending the war, and does not dictate the outcome of the negotiations.

In my view, only rabid warmongers are against a ceasefire.
Negotiations do not require a ceasefire. That's nonsense.
You may end up negotiating a ceasefire while other negotiations go on, but there is no rule that says "we can't negotiate until we have a ceasefire" unless one of the sides refuses to negotiate until there is a ceasefire.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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Except for all the times you have justified Russia invading Ukraine because Ukraine was more friendly to with EU.
I don't think that's true.
His position is "It is primarily due to NATO".
Ukraine wanting closer ties to the EU isn't something he talks about as a reason, because Ukraine has no independent agency and can't make decisions like "we should be more friendly to the EU" in his mind.

Now, in reality, Ukraine being more friendly with the EU and distancing itself from Russia is one of the reasons Russia invaded, but I don't think krealtron has actually leaned into that as part of his justification.
 
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