Trump raided by the FBI! Mar-a-Lago search warrant!!

mandrill

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Trump's lawyers didn't push for the affidavit's release

He wants to pretend that he wants the affidavit released, but in actual fact, it would ruin him.

He's hanging back, but he'll still yell that an unredacted affidavit should be released.
 

mandrill

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I don't buy that. Right now, the people running USA has decided, that Trump cannot be allowed to run again. I am convinced that they will get him on something. Remember, in USA, winning is everything, it matters not wow you win, by crook or hook. If they do not get him on something I am convinced he will have an unfortunate accident.

By the way, I am the opposite of a Trump admirer. I think he is a repulsive individual, that should never be president. He had some good ideas, which he did not implement, like withdrawing the military, and many bad ideas, which he did implement, like the tax cuts on the rich. The establishment is worried about controlling him. Better to have an 80 year old Biden.

You missed the point of every authoritarian leader being enthusiastically supported by the entire legal profession. Whatever Stalin and Hitler did, to name two, was in full accordance with the law, and lawyers were enthusiastic to send people to their deaths. Any comment about the integrity of the legal profession?
He didn't implement his "good ideas" because he didn't give a shit about doing them and he lied to you. He implemented his bad ideas because lowering taxes rates on the rich directly benefits himself and his buddies.

Good lord, you're slow!

The establishment doesn't need to control him. He IS the establishment.

If he wasn't an asshole and if he actually paid his attorneys, they'd line up around the block to represent him. FFS, do you actually think that criminal defence attorneys only represent "nice" people???????.... If they did that, they'd have no cases. Representing criminals is what criminal defence lawyers do for a living!

But he's got a massive ego, is not controllable as a client and cannot be trusted to pay a retainer.
 
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danmand

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He didn't implement his "good ideas" because he didn't give a shit about doing them and he lied to you. He implemented his bad ideas because lowering taxes rates on the rich directly benefits himself and his buddies.

Good lord, you're slow!

The establishment doesn't need to control him. He IS the establishment.

If he wasn't an asshole and if he actually paid his attorneys, they'd line up around the block to represent him. FFS, do you actually think that criminal defence attorneys only represent "nice" people???????.... If they did that, they'd have no cases. Representing criminals is what criminal defence lawyers do for a living!

But he's got a massive ego, is not controllable as a client and cannot be trusted to pay a retainer.
Better to be a bit slow than permanently naïve and gullible like you ( and I am being generous).

You are too far down the hole you have dug for yourself, that you cannot look on Trump with any kind of objectivity. It is the American way of being 100% for or 100% against.

There can be little doubt that Trump did want to reduce the worldwide military presence of USA for economic reasons, and that he eventually folded to the MIC.

Trump was a small time real estate operator in NY, and a tv huckster. To call him "part of the establishment or He is the establishment" is ridiculous. He has no buddies among the powerbrokers. They see him for what he is, a crude nuveau riche guy. Even the other nuveau riche, Gates, Musk, the Googles etc, look down their noses on him because he is a boar.
 
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KDK13

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I don't think anyone who voted for djt in 2016 was an idiot. There were some things that one might have seen to think he might be more independent. And although disagreed w various policies it was those honest people could disagree. The crazier stuff never thought he'd do (wrong lol). The Muslim ban, the rogues gallery of incompetents, routine bald faced lying, ...self dealing..and more we learned more awfulness. ..and nothing learned ever pointed to brilliance or wisdom..exactly opposite.. laid crystal clear once pandemic hit. Then the coup attempt...full fascist. All the people who work for him in jail (unless he pardoned them).
Couldn't be clearer what we're dealing with now.
 

toguy5252

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I'm sure Trump and his allies would like to know as well, so they can attempt to obstruct justice once again. That's why it is sealed. And, it looks like the affidavit was correct. They did find top secret and higher documents in Trump's possession, even though his lawyers swore they had turned over all the material...

But, again, you make me laugh when you are suddenly so concerned about the justification for an investigation....yet keep on going on and on about Hunter and his laptop....
Ignore the chatter. The former guy has no interest in having it released. Not any more that he was so anxious to release is tax returns if only he wasn't under audit. zzzzzzzz. still waiting.

If he was truly interested in having it released his lawyer would have supported the application by media lawyers. They said nothing although in the courtroom. There is likely much more damning allegations in the affidavit. This way he can pretend to be outraged and fund raise off the unfairness etc. and his lemmings, including those on this board will either send money or flood the internet with their faux outrage.
 

Valcazar

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Mar 27, 2014
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There can be little doubt that Trump did want to reduce the worldwide military presence of USA for economic reasons, and that he eventually folded to the MIC.
That's not quite right.
I am glad that you aren't pushing the weird line that he wanted to reduce the military out of some moral idea.
Like you say, he did talk about in purely economic terms mixed with macho positioning.
He wanted to remove the military from the various occupation areas, because it cost money and made the US look weak.
He wanted to spend MUCH more on the Military overall, so that they could invade anywhere whenever they wanted and more importantly - threaten to do so and extract tribute.
He specifically said he wanted to do old-school colonialism where if the US invaded, it could extract treasure and resources from the country to pay for the invasion.
Steal the oil, confiscate whatever could make money.
And he wanted more war crimes and fewer rules on civilian casualties and targets so that wars would be easier to win. (He did get to implement that one, as you can see with his air strike data.)


Which, of course, was part of the problem.
Since his opposition to "the worldwide military presence" was a mix of "it costs too much and we don't look badass" - all it took to stop him was to say "you will look like a pussy if you leave".


Trump was a small time real estate operator in NY, and a tv huckster. To call him "part of the establishment or He is the establishment" is ridiculous. He has no buddies among the powerbrokers. They see him for what he is, a crude nuveau riche guy.
This then gets down to what people consider "elite" or "establishment" and why.
Which "establishment" and which "powerbrokers" accepted him or didn't isn't a simple binary.
 
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Valcazar

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If he wasn't an asshole and if he actually paid his attorneys, they'd line up around the block to represent him. FFS, do you actually think that criminal defence attorneys only represent "nice" people???????.... If they did that, they'd have no cases. Representing criminals is what criminal defence lawyers do for a living!

But he's got a massive ego, is not controllable as a client and cannot be trusted to pay a retainer.
This is the part I don't get.
You don't need an elaborate explanation for why he can't find good lawyers.
He has a history of not listening to his lawyers and even more importantly NOT PAYING THEM.
It's not complicated.
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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Better to be a bit slow than permanently naïve and gullible like you ( and I am being generous).
You are too far down the hole you have dug for yourself, that you cannot look on Trump with any kind of objectivity. It is the American way of being 100% for or 100% against.
There can be little doubt that Trump did want to reduce the worldwide military presence of USA for economic reasons, and that he eventually folded to the MIC.
Trump was a small time real estate operator in NY, and a tv huckster. To call him "part of the establishment or He is the establishment" is ridiculous. He has no buddies among the powerbrokers. They see him for what he is, a crude nuveau riche guy. Even the other nuveau riche, Gates, Musk, the Googles etc, look down their noses on him because he is a boar.
I will put up with a lot of shit from leaders, if they have any redeeming qualities. I say nice things about RMN because I think he was competent. I say nice things about GWB because I think he was "stupid, but decent".

Trump was not competent. And he was not ethical nor honest. That leaves little positive to comment on, except perhaps his peach-tinted comb-over - which I consider a true masterpiece of the hairdresser's craft and a contrivance that even Madame de Pompadour might have envied.

Is he loved among the true US ultra-elite? Well, who the fuck are they, Danny??... The cluster of mega-wealthy turds that fund the GOP may or may not individually like him. Did Betsy Devos want to suck his dick?... Who knows?

The US is a big place with many, many, many elites. There are Hollywood assholes. There are mega wealthy oil assholes. There are Jesus assholes, etc. Maybe Elon Musk wants to hang with DJT? I have no idea. But to speculate that there is a closed clique of hoity-toity, old money folks who party privately at the Astors' mansion on Long Island probably died off before 1930. Some people liked Trump, some pretended to in order to exploit him and some disdained him.

And it's "nouveau", and "boor". Boor comes from the German word Bauer, or farmer. Or the Dutch word Boer. It's got nothing to do with the piggies.
 

Valcazar

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The US is a big place with many, many, many elites. There are Hollywood assholes. There are mega wealthy oil assholes. There are Jesus assholes, etc. Maybe Elon Musk wants to hang with DJT? I have no idea. But to speculate that there is a closed clique of hoity-toity, old money folks who party privately at the Astors' mansion on Long Island probably died off before 1930. Some people liked Trump, some pretended to in order to exploit him and some disdained him.
This is something people seem to have trouble grasping.
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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I don't think anyone who voted for djt in 2016 was an idiot. There were some things that one might have seen to think he might be more independent. And although disagreed w various policies it was those honest people could disagree. The crazier stuff never thought he'd do (wrong lol). The Muslim ban, the rogues gallery of incompetents, routine bald faced lying, ...self dealing..and more we learned more awfulness. ..and nothing learned ever pointed to brilliance or wisdom..exactly opposite.. laid crystal clear once pandemic hit. Then the coup attempt...full fascist. All the people who work for him in jail (unless he pardoned them).
Couldn't be clearer what we're dealing with now.
Yeah. Everybody thought he was smart because he was a successful businessman and that he'd rein in the Far Right bullshit once he got elected. But everyone was wrong.

He was dumb and crude and vile.
 

danmand

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I will put up with a lot of shit from leaders, if they have any redeeming qualities. I say nice things about RMN because I think he was competent. I say nice things about GWB because I think he was "stupid, but decent".

Trump was not competent. And he was not ethical nor honest. That leaves little positive to comment on, except perhaps his peach-tinted comb-over - which I consider a true masterpiece of the hairdresser's craft and a contrivance that even Madame de Pompadour might have envied.

Is he loved among the true US ultra-elite? Well, who the fuck are they, Danny??... The cluster of mega-wealthy turds that fund the GOP may or may not individually like him. Did Betsy Devos want to suck his dick?... Who knows?

The US is a big place with many, many, many elites. There are Hollywood assholes. There are mega wealthy oil assholes. There are Jesus assholes, etc. Maybe Elon Musk wants to hang with DJT? I have no idea. But to speculate that there is a closed clique of hoity-toity, old money folks who party privately at the Astors' mansion on Long Island probably died off before 1930. Some people liked Trump, some pretended to in order to exploit him and some disdained him.

And it's "nouveau", and "boor". Boor comes from the German word Bauer, or farmer. Or the Dutch word Boer. It's got nothing to do with the piggies.
All you have masquerading as arguments are spelling corrections.

You are simply wrong saying that "Trump is the establishment". Admit it

You should take a page from Valcazar's
playbook and argue the points instead of only providing insults and hyperbole.

If I had any doubts about you being a lawyer, they have disappeared.
 
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Valcazar

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You are simply wrong saying that "Trump is the establishment". Admit it
He's not wrong, though.

Trump is one form of the Establishment, depending on how you want to describe that.
There is a reason he has gotten away with white collar crime for ages, and that's because he is Establishment.
He isn't part of the old GOP or Washington political establishment, but they embraced and supported him, which is why he survived two impeachments.
Did a lot of them say "we will use him but he isn't really 'one of us'"?
Sure, absolutely.
But that's the way it is with factions and politics and subcultures, there all kinds of gradations here.

As was said, there isn't a single, unified "The Establishment" that is universal and constant across everything.
There are sub groups and factions and cross currents.
 
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danmand

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He's not wrong, though.

Trump is one form of the Establishment, depending on how you want to describe that.
There is a reason he has gotten away with white collar crime for ages, and that's because he is Establishment.
He isn't part of the old GOP or Washington political establishment, but they embraced and supported him, which is why he survived two impeachments.
Did a lot of them say "we will use him but he isn't really 'one of us'"?
Sure, absolutely.
But that's the way it is with factions and politics and subcultures, there all kinds of gradations here.

As was said, there isn't a single, unified "The Establishment" that is universal and constant across everything.
There are sub groups and factions and cross currents.
I will go as far as agreeing with you that he was used by the establishment. Now he is no longer useful for them, and he is being shunned. Normal modus operandi.

I do not know who is the establishment in USA, and I am not talking about the political establishment as in GOP and Dems. Clearly the President has very little real power, and the political parties do not care much for the wishes of the people.

I suspect the MIC is a big part of the establishment. Eisenhower would have known. As for the rest, I think the way to find out who is "in" is to follow the money.
 

Valcazar

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I will go as far as agreeing with you that he was used by the establishment. Now he is no longer useful for them, and he is being shunned. Normal modus operandi.

I do not know who is the establishment in USA, and I am not talking about the political establishment as in GOP and Dems. Clearly the President has very little real power, and the political parties do not care much for the wishes of the people.

I suspect the MIC is a big part of the establishment. Eisenhower would have known. As for the rest, I think the way to find out who is "in" is to follow the money.
Again, why do you think there is one "Establishment" or that they are united?
The way you are describing it, "The Establishment" is just "everyone who has some power and investment in the system". Which, sure, but they also don't all agree or like each other.
 

danmand

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Again, why do you think there is one "Establishment" or that they are united?
The way you are describing it, "The Establishment" is just "everyone who has some power and investment in the system". Which, sure, but they also don't all agree or like each other.
I am not claiming that the establishment is a single group, that does not change by time.

What I am claiming is that it is not the President or the two parties who call the shots. There has been very minimal change in policies from Obama to Trump to Biden. Look at foreign policy and health care. I don't know what the proper name for the system is, Oligarchy?
 

Valcazar

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I am not claiming that the establishment is a single group, that does not change by time.

What I am claiming is that it is not the President or the two parties who call the shots.
Obviously.
Even Putin doesn't call all the shots in Russia.
Power is always distributed in different ways and there are always different power centers.

There has been very minimal change in policies from Obama to Trump to Biden. Look at foreign policy and health care.
That you can say that with a straight face is pretty stunning, but I guess it depends on what "minimal" means.

You also have to consider that the US political system is uniquely laden with veto points making change difficult.

I don't know what the proper name for the system is, Oligarchy?
You could call it that, but then you have to identify the oligarchy in question.

But "there are myriad powerful interests that all interact" feels very different from "There is a shadowy cabal who secretly control everything", which is what your "The Establishment isn't letting Donald Trump have lawyers" sounds a lot more like.
 
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mandrill

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I am not claiming that the establishment is a single group, that does not change by time.

What I am claiming is that it is not the President or the two parties who call the shots. There has been very minimal change in policies from Obama to Trump to Biden. Look at foreign policy and health care. I don't know what the proper name for the system is, Oligarchy?
Danny, the most basic fact about the USA is that it is HUGE. It's the 3rd most populous and - I believe - the third or fourth most geographically extensive country on the planet. And massively and far and away the richest.

There was a time - 125 years ago - where all the real power brokers in the USA knew each other and lived in or proximate to New York. They had similar social and political attitudes. And their world was small and hermetically sealed. That was a time when the middle class was tiny, the rich even more tiny and 95% of people lived in penury or slightly better.

In the last century, money and opportunity has eluded many, but become vastly attainable to many others in ways unforeseen in 1900 America. The movie industry, the car industry, the computer industry, psychiatry, dentistry, social work - all unknown in Teddy Roosevelt's America. In 1900, America had 3 cities of over 1 million people. Boston was the size of Hamilton. Saint Louis the size of Kitchener-Waterloo. Large towns by today's standards.

The notion that there's a secret cabal that meets at a yacht club every Sunday at 3:00 to plot the nation's destiny has been outmoded for a century. There are now at least 30 US cities with well over 1,000,000 people and there are enclaves of the very rich in each of these from Seattle to Atlanta. Each industry and each city has an elite, sometimes several elites each with its own attitudes and politics.
 

danmand

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Danny, the most basic fact about the USA is that it is HUGE. It's the 3rd most populous and - I believe - the third or fourth most geographically extensive country on the planet. And massively and far and away the richest.

There was a time - 125 years ago - where all the real power brokers in the USA knew each other and lived in or proximate to New York. They had similar social and political attitudes. And their world was small and hermetically sealed. That was a time when the middle class was tiny, the rich even more tiny and 95% of people lived in penury or slightly better.

In the last century, money and opportunity has eluded many, but become vastly attainable to many others in ways unforeseen in 1900 America. The movie industry, the car industry, the computer industry, psychiatry, dentistry, social work - all unknown in Teddy Roosevelt's America. In 1900, America had 3 cities of over 1 million people. Boston was the size of Hamilton. Saint Louis the size of Kitchener-Waterloo. Large towns by today's standards.

The notion that there's a secret cabal that meets at a yacht club every Sunday at 3:00 to plot the nation's destiny has been outmoded for a century. There are now at least 30 US cities with well over 1,000,000 people and there are enclaves of the very rich in each of these from Seattle to Atlanta. Each industry and each city has an elite, sometimes several elites each with its own attitudes and politics.
Continuing with Latin, an example of reductio ad absurdum.

The fact remains that Trump is not the establishment, as you claimed.

I made it to be senior executive in a large American company, and I met a great number of CEO's of all kinds of American companies in all areas of the country. And I can assure you that none of them would consider a TV huckster part of the establishment.
 

toguy5252

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All you have masquerading as arguments are spelling corrections.

You are simply wrong saying that "Trump is the establishment". Admit it

You should take a page from Valcazar's
playbook and argue the points instead of only providing insults and hyperbole.

If I had any doubts about you being a lawyer, they have disappeared.
The former guy tried desperately for years to be accepted by the establishment without success. He is not part of the establishment but not for want of trying. Much of his rhetoric is directed at the establishment because they rejected him. It is like the guy who continually bad mouths the woman who has rejected him.

Much like his relationship with Hollywood. Before announcing his run he loved to be surrounded by Hollywood types. Afterward the best he could do was Scott Baio and he now continually bashes Hollywood.
 
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mandrill

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Continuing with Latin, an example of reductio ad absurdum.

The fact remains that Trump is not the establishment, as you claimed.

I made it to be senior executive in a large American company, and I met a great number of CEO's of all kinds of American companies in all areas of the country. And I can assure you that none of them would consider a TV huckster part of the establishment.
But they're not "the" establishment.

They're a meritocracy that likely despises his lack of intelligence and crudeness. As would you and I. There are many other factions that would accept him.
 
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