TYT Starting To Turn On The Democrats?

[Butler1000]

Or she thought it through and realized who the real enemy is.

The real enemy is two parties neither of which give a fuck. The Dems whole strategy at this point on Roe v Wade is to call a vote to get "everyone on record" and then watch as it falls. And then fundraise off it.

If there was EVER a reason to kill the filibuster this is it. If they don't do it here then they don't give a shit.

 

[Valcazar]

And as usual, your profound understanding of things shines through.

OK, cool.
Both parties don't give a fuck.
What do you do next?
Should she be calling for the overthrow of the government?
If not, what should she be calling for?

 

[Butler1000]

And as usual, your profound understanding of things shines through.

OK, cool.
Both parties don't give a fuck.
What do you do next?
Should she be calling for the overthrow of the government?
If not, what should she be calling for?

How about a third party? Why is that such a bad thing?

 

[y2kmark]

How about a third party? Why is that such a bad thing?

Four words - First Past the Post. Ralph Nader had enough good ideas for two Presidents, But a vote for him elected Bush...

 

[jcpro]

Four words - First Past the Post. Ralph Nader had enough good ideas for two Presidents, But a vote for him elected Bush...

And the vote for Ross Perot gave us the Arkansas hillbillies- otherwise known as the Clinton Crime Family.

 

[Charlemagne]

Or she thought it through and realized who the real enemy is.

The real enemy is not making money.

 

[Charlemagne]

What's wrong with peddling coffee?



Dore is a man with even fewer solutions, though. That's the problem. People going "politics is hard" and then going to someone like Dore is bad for the country. Saagar may be even worse from what I remember of him. (He was the one with Krystal Ball as a co-host, right? At least she seems to not be on your list.)

These people having growing audiences is a bad sign.



Probably for the best, it sounds like the popular stuff is pretty shit.

Dore's solution is not to vote for the Democratic party, but obviously that option would put Republicans in power even if it were too send a strong message.

Saagar is Krystal's cohost and represents the populist right, she recently destroyed him on Roe v. Wade.

 

[Charlemagne]

Dore has Jumped the shark on numerous topics now. He is just swinging wildly and trying to rile audiences up.

Breaking Points is starting to create a very real brand. They are slowing adding other contributors content under the banner. And yes the growth has been exponential. They made CNN look foolish over CNN+ with the difference in paid subscribers. I see them as a very real new media outlet in the long run.

He's pandering the lower class people with right wing views.

He nails it on corruption, then goes full stupid on quite a bit of other stuff. I just watched one of his videos for the first time in a while, only because of Ana though.

 

[Insidious Von]

Can't blame Ana for being frustrated, like Farron Cousins pointed out, the Dems had several administrations to codify female reproductive rights into law - they never did. What I find strange about all of this is an uppity masher like Clarence Thomas getting to decide how a woman gets to look after her body.

Q) What the difference between the KKK and The Inquisition? a) Colour, one wears white the other wears red.

MTG wants to start up her own Inquisition hit team to hunt down abortionists once Roe vs Wade is repealed. At heart she's just another Ron McLean, that makes her dangerous. She's been allowed to run for re-election.

 

[poker]

And the vote for Ross Perot gave us the Arkansas hillbillies- otherwise known as the Clinton Crime Family.

And balanced budgets...

 

[Butler1000]

Four words - First Past the Post. Ralph Nader had enough good ideas for two Presidents, But a vote for him elected Bush...

So what. Also elected Clinton. Point being neither has an incentive to change. In Canada the NDP pushed the parties to the left. It can happen in the USA as well.

 

[jcpro]

And balanced budgets...

Actually, Newt Gingrich brought about a balanced budget.

 

[poker]

Actually, Newt Gingrich brought about a balanced budget.

Yeah…. No.

 

[Valcazar]

How about a third party? Why is that such a bad thing?

Because in a two-party FPTP system like the US, a third party fucks your own goals.

People want to propose building a third party over the next decade and vote strategically in the meantime, that's cool.
But no one I see talking third party seems to want to do that because it is hard. (And "the next decade" is assuming you actually have the votes to make the third party viable and push until one of the current parties collapses. Otherwise it will take much longer. )
People want to propose taking over a current party and pushing it in the direction you want, that's cool.
That's been what has been going on in both parties and is the normal process in the system the US has. Also takes a long time.
People want to start a revolution and tear down the system and build a new one out of the ashes, I don't think it is a good plan, but at least it is a real one.
People want to massively push for an overhaul of the voting system and how elections are run to make third parties more viable, also a good plan that can be spun out over the next 10-20 years.

I don't see the people you favor making any efforts along any of these lines.

 

[Valcazar]

Dore's solution is not to vote for the Democratic party, but obviously that option would put Republicans in power even if it were too send a strong message.

Like I said, Dore is an idiot and him gaining popularity as a political commentator is damaging because he's an idiot.

Saagar is Krystal's cohost and represents the populist right, she recently destroyed him on Roe v. Wade.

They are still a co-host team?
How tragic.

 

[Butler1000]

Because in a two-party FPTP system like the US, a third party fucks your own goals.

People want to propose building a third party over the next decade and vote strategically in the meantime, that's cool.
But no one I see talking third party seems to want to do that because it is hard. (And "the next decade" is assuming you actually have the votes to make the third party viable and push until one of the current parties collapses. Otherwise it will take much longer. )
People want to propose taking over a current party and pushing it in the direction you want, that's cool.
That's been what has been going on in both parties and is the normal process in the system the US has. Also takes a long time.
People want to start a revolution and tear down the system and build a new one out of the ashes, I don't think it is a good plan, but at least it is a real one.
People want to massively push for an overhaul of the voting system and how elections are run to make third parties more viable, also a good plan that can be spun out over the next 10-20 years.

I don't see the people you favor making any efforts along any of these lines.

Are you saying Sanders hasn't via caucusing and running hasn't tried tried to push the Dems for about 30 years?


The problem is the money people have taken both parties. Nina Turner's opponent had REPUBLICAN donors running commercials for her. For a Democratic primary.

They not going to just let it happen without a massive fight. Anymore than the large corps, who have spent decades killing labor laws and unions suddenly allow them back in.

Val, the USA is in rough shape. And its going to get worse. Its going to get ugly. There is, imo, no point having faith in either party anymore. And there is a steadily growing contingent who feel the same. And that battle is coming.

 

[Butler1000]

Like I said, Dore is an idiot and him gaining popularity as a political commentator is damaging because he's an idiot.



They are still a co-host team?
How tragic.

They are a co host team who left to start up their own combination subsciber model with later free access on various platforms. And are now less than a year later paying their own bills. They are also adding talent under the Breaking Points banner from other independent writers and commentators.

And foing so completely free of all corporate monry influence.

Then look at the complete failure of CNN+. So no it isn't tragic. Its in fact a sign of just how much people want to hear something that isn't curated by Corporate America on behalf of the Unity Party for the Donors benefit.

If you don't like what they have to say don't listen. But their audience is steadily growing. So you better take them seriously

 

[Valcazar]

Are you saying Sanders hasn't via caucusing and running hasn't tried tried to pudh the Dems for about 30 years?

He has.
He also carefully cut a deal with the Dems in Vermont that lets him run in the Dem primary and then reject the nomination and the Dems don't run someone against him.
(The understanding appears to be that if he loses the Dem primary he doesn't run as an independent against the Dem nominee because both he and the Dems know running third party would fuck them both for their long-term goals.)

He ran as a Dem in the Dem primary for President as well and didn't run as a third party independent because it would fuck his long-term goals.

I have my issues with Sanders, but he's not an idiot about how the system he is in works. You don't become a career Washington insider without that understanding.

The problem is the money people have taken both parties. Nina Turner's opponent had REPUBLICAN donors running commercials for her. For a Democratic primary.

Parties run ads against the other party all the time.
Nina Turner has run twice now and failed.
Again, though, as far as I can tell, she's smart enough not to run third party and fuck up her long term goals.

They not going to just let it happen without a massive fight.

Who is "they" here?
But yes. The major parties are not going to give up their entrenched position without a major fight.
That's why I say either building a third party, taking over a party completely, or radically overhauling the voting system to change the structural incentives is the work of a decade or more.
Look at the Conservative Movement. They launched a "we need to take over the GOP" project back in the 60s. They got control by 1980 with Reagan and got complete control only recently. That's a half-century plan.

Val, the USA is in rough shape. And its going to get worse. Its going to get ugly. There is, imo, no point having faith in either party anymore. And there is a steadily growing contingent who feel the same. And that battle is coming.

What do you mean by this?
This is always your problem Butler.

People have accused you of being an accelerationist before and I have sometimes believed them and sometimes not.

So no putting words in your mouth or assumptions.
Say what you mean.

If what you mean is "people have lost faith in both parties, the only way forward is overthrowing the government/civil war" then fucking say that.
If you mean "a third party will magically rise up out of the disaffected but we don't have to do any work to make that happen" then say that.
Etc. Etc.

 

[Valcazar]

They are a co host team who left to start up their own combination subsciber model with later free access on various platforms. And are now less than a year later paying their own bills. They are also adding talent under the Breaking Points banner from other independent writers and commentators.

And that they are popular - assuming they haven't changed from the days of Rising is tragic because like most cable news gabfests, they are pretty shitty about news and about analysis.
You say they have been hiring more people - maybe some of the people they are hiring are good.

And foing so completely free of all corporate monry influence.

I have no idea why you would think that.

Then look at the complete failure of CNN+.

Why would I care about CNN+?
I didn't even hear about it before it was announced as failing.
It seemed a completely stupid idea.

So no it isn't tragic. Its in fact a sign of just how much people want to hear something that isn't curated by Corporate America on behalf of the Unity Party for the Donors benefit.

Listen to yourself and think about what you are saying and what it says about how they are marketing themselves to their target audience.

If you don't like what they have to say don't listen. But their audience is steadily growing. So you better take them seriously

Cool.
Since they are political activists from what I remember - how are they encouraging people to vote?
Are they building a third party?
Have they shown influence to move the needle like Fox does as a propaganda network?

 

[Butler1000]

He has.
He also carefully cut a deal with the Dems in Vermont that lets him run in the Dem primary and then reject the nomination and the Dems don't run someone against him.
(The understanding appears to be that if he loses the Dem primary he doesn't run as an independent against the Dem nominee because both he and the Dems know running third party would fuck them both for their long-term goals.)

He ran as a Dem in the Dem primary for President as well and didn't run as a third party independent because it would fuck his long-term goals.

I have my issues with Sanders, but he's not an idiot about how the system he is in works. You don't become a career Washington insider without that understanding.



Parties run ads against the other party all the time.
Nina Turner has run twice now and failed.
Again, though, as far as I can tell, she's smart enough not to run third party and fuck up her long term goals.



Who is "they" here?
But yes. The major parties are not going to give up their entrenched position without a major fight.
That's why I say either building a third party, taking over a party completely, or radically overhauling the voting system to change the structural incentives is the work of a decade or more.
Look at the Conservative Movement. They launched a "we need to take over the GOP" project back in the 60s. They got control by 1980 with Reagan and got complete control only recently. That's a half-century plan.



What do you mean by this?
This is always your problem Butler.

People have accused you of being an accelerationist before and I have sometimes believed them and sometimes not.

So no putting words in your mouth or assumptions.
Say what you mean.

If what you mean is "people have lost faith in both parties, the only way forward is overthrowing the government/civil war" then fucking say that.
If you mean "a third party will magically rise up out of the disaffected but we don't have to do any work to make that happen" then say that.
Etc. Etc.

In the end I honestly don't know whats going to happen. I'm down in the USA now and it's not pretty. The nation has a very real income disparity. A very real culture war disparity. It's palpable. And no, nithing us going to help change things right away. But things sure can blow up real quick.

Honestly I have no idea what is exactly meant by accelerationist. I mean, I doubt anything resembling a civil war would last long or even gain any traction. But I do see civil unrest rising in the coming days. I see more people turning to extremes with economic failure.

So if that leads to an real organized NDP style third party that starts to push things back left then the pain will be worth it.