QI: The English Armada

[Darts]

I cannot locate the author at the moment, but I spent a few months off and on in the first round of Covid Lock-downs reading a CS Forrster like author on Stories Online.

Really good sage, of about 5 novel length stories of British sailing life in the navy in the late Victoria age of sail.

Hard lives, but fascinating times, all well researched and written around real historical narratives

Some (many?) of the sailors in the RN were press ganged into service.

By the end of the Victorian era, the RN had already or was in the process of being supplanted by the American navy and/or the JIN. This was obvious when President Roosevelt in 1907 ordered the Great White Fleet to sail around the world.(Before the usual suspects start yelling racism, the Great White Fleet was named because the ships were painted white.)
Great White Fleet - Wikipedia

 

[mandrill]

Some (many?) of the sailors in the RN were press ganged into service.

By the end of the Victorian era, the RN had already or was in the process of being supplanted by the American navy and/or the JIN. This was obvious when President Roosevelt in 1907 ordered the Great White Fleet to sail around the world.(Before the usual suspects start yelling racism, the Great White Fleet was named because the ships were painted white.)
Great White Fleet - Wikipedia

That depended. When the RN was expanding rapidly, as in the Napoleonic Wars, the Press Gang was pretty busy. It has been rationalized as being a form of "conscription". The continental European countries had actual conscription at the time. The Brits had the press gang, which was less pervasive. And they needed the sailors. It was life and death against Boney.

By late Victorian times, all that had long since ended.

The RN was powerful up until World War Two. I believe it was still ship for ship more powerful than the IJN in WW2, but had to cover a lot more world. And with the USN being massively larger than the rest of the world's navies combined, the RN was not really needed in the PTO.

 

[Darts]

The RN was powerful up until World War Two. I believe it was still ship for ship more powerful than the IJN in WW2, but had to cover a lot more world. And with the USN being massively larger than the rest of the world's navies combined, the RN was not really needed in the PTO.

"The RN was powerful up until World War Two."

The Brits entered WW II with ships like the HMS Hood (wooden deck), the "aircraft carrier" Ark Royal with their bi-planes (yes, bi-planes).

"The Repulse and the Prince of Wales were casualties of the old world’s reliance on large surface fleets. In WWI the submarine had come of age, now less than 30 years later, the airplane ruled the waves. Even if the Prince of Wales’ HACS had worked, the Japanese air attacks would have persisted, and the outcome would likely have been the same."

Of course, the Americans at Midway turned 4 enemy carriers into scrap metal and that turned the tide in the PTO. (I heard but can't prove that every enemy pilot, except one, involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor had been killed by war's end.) From that point up to to-day, the U.S. navy rule the 7 Seas.

 

[mandrill]

"The RN was powerful up until World War Two."

The Brits entered WW II with ships like the HMS Hood (wooden deck), the "aircraft carrier" Ark Royal with their bi-planes (yes, bi-planes).

"The Repulse and the Prince of Wales were casualties of the old world’s reliance on large surface fleets. In WWI the submarine had come of age, now less than 30 years later, the airplane ruled the waves. Even if the Prince of Wales’ HACS had worked, the Japanese air attacks would have persisted, and the outcome would likely have been the same."

Of course, the Americans at Midway turned 4 enemy carriers into scrap metal and that turned the tide in the PTO. (I heard but can't prove that every enemy pilot, except one, involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor had been killed by war's end.) From that point up to to-day, the U.S. navy rule the 7 Seas.

Bi planes were standard up until the late 30's and the RN was a 3 or 4 years behind. The ships were perfectly functional and the swordfish biplanes were replaced by Avenger bombers and Wildcat fighters within the next year. British carriers were actually better armoured and more functional than USN carriers.

All navies believed in surface ships until Midway. The master plans for both the IJN and the USN envisaged a great surface fleet armageddon like a mega Jutland. It never happened because by 1942, everyone suddenly took note that naval air could blow surface fleets into scrap and the PTO became a carrier war - for as long as the Japanese still had carriers. And after that, it became the USN bombing and shelling the shit out of the IJN and Japan itself.

 

[mandrill]

"The RN was powerful up until World War Two."

The Brits entered WW II with ships like the HMS Hood (wooden deck), the "aircraft carrier" Ark Royal with their bi-planes (yes, bi-planes).

"The Repulse and the Prince of Wales were casualties of the old world’s reliance on large surface fleets. In WWI the submarine had come of age, now less than 30 years later, the airplane ruled the waves. Even if the Prince of Wales’ HACS had worked, the Japanese air attacks would have persisted, and the outcome would likely have been the same."

Of course, the Americans at Midway turned 4 enemy carriers into scrap metal and that turned the tide in the PTO. (I heard but can't prove that every enemy pilot, except one, involved in the attack on Pearl Harbor had been killed by war's end.) From that point up to to-day, the U.S. navy rule the 7 Seas.

What are the top 5 navies during World War 2?

Answer (1 of 8): When do you want to measure this? In 1939 or by 1945? The rankings look very different by the end of WW2 from what they were at the beginning of the war. Also what does ‘top’ mean? Biggest? Most powerful? Most accomplished and successful? Most modern? Let’s first rank navies in...

www.quora.com

When do you want to measure this? In 1939 or by 1945? The rankings look very different by the end of WW2 from what they were at the beginning of the war.

Also what does ‘top’ mean? Biggest? Most powerful? Most accomplished and successful? Most modern?

Let’s first rank navies in terms of size as they were in 1939.

1. British Royal Navy: 15 battleships and battlecruisers, 7 aircraft carriers, 66 cruisers, 164 destroyers and 66 submarines.
2. US Navy: 15 battleships, 6 aircraft carriers, 37 cruisers, around 150 destroyers and 112 submarines.
3. Japan: 10 battleships, 12 carriers (6 fleet, 6 light), 38 cruisers, 126 destroyers, 68 submarines
4. France: 7 Battleships/Battlecruisers, 1 aircraft carrier, 19 cruisers, 78 destroyers, 27 submarines
5. Italy: 6 battleships, 19 cruisers, 59 destroyers, 116 submarines

 

[Darts]

There is absolutely no doubt that the U.S. Navy was by far the most powerful in the world by the end of WW II.

So the debate is who had the most powerful on September 1, 1939. Probably the IJN? The RN had many older ships.

It was General Billy Mitchell who demonstrated in the early 1920's that aircrafts could sink a battleship.

We should also recognize the contributions of the Canadian navy that was tasked with keeping the supply line to Britain open.

 

[Darts]

After the American Revolution, the Brits declined to continue protecting American merchant ships which were often targets of the Barbary pirates. Hence, the U.S. decided they needed their own navy and marines.

 

[mandrill]

The RN was quite good. It consistently beat the Regia Marina. Those puny biplanes sank the Bismarck. The RN pulled off Pearl Harbour a year before Pearl Harbour with its surprise air attack on Taranto. (Those biplanes again). It consistently beat up German surface battleships - i.e the Graf Spee in the River Plate and the Scharnhorst off North Cape.

Whether it could have taken on the IJN at Midway is debatable. But it could have a year later with a flight deck full of its newly-acquired Grumman lend-lease aircraft.

 

[Darts]

The RN was quite good. It consistently beat the Regia Marina. Those puny biplanes sank the Bismarck.

Here's what I remember of the sinking of the Bismarck.
1) HMS Hood sank because a shell went though its wooden deck.
2) The bi-planes flew so slow and so low, the Bismarck had to recalibrate its guns.
3) A lucky torpedo hit disabled the steering gear and the Bismarck could only go in circles.
4) A flotilla of British ships kept firing shells into the Bismarck forcing its eventual sinking.

 

[mandrill]

 

[mandrill]

Here's what I remember of the sinking of the Bismarck.
1) HMS Hood sank because a shell went though its wooden deck.
2) The bi-planes flew so slow and so low, the Bismarck had to recalibrate its guns.
3) A lucky torpedo hit disabled the steering gear and the Bismarck could only go in circles.
4) A flotilla of British ships kept firing shells into the Bismarck forcing its eventual sinking.

You have to bear in mind that ships were hit and damaged - sometimes fatally - by one or two hits and 90%+ of torpedo attempts failed. If you listen to the Cape Matapan video, the RN won in the same way.

If you want a shoot-out type win, you can look at the sinking of the Scharnhorst.

 

[mandrill]

(5) In WW2, could the British Royal Navy have defeated the Japanese Navy single-handedly without the US Navy? - Quora

 

[Darts]

The seeds of the great victory at Midway was actually sown on December 7, 1941.

1) The American carriers were out at sea during the attack on Pearl. They were simply not there to be destroyed.
2) The repair shops were not badly damaged and quickly restored.

3) In January 1942 the U.S. had cracked the enemy's naval code.
World War II, United States Breaking of Japanese Naval Codes | Encyclopedia.com

 

[Insidious Von]

Another advantage the Americans had in WW II, their cypher code was legit unbreakable by the Axis Powers. Due to that the Japanese Navy didn't know that the carriers were out to sea when they attacked Pearl Harbour and the Germans massed all their defenses at Calais on D-Day. The code was based on Navaho script which left the Axis bamboozled.

Of course there were risks, I thought the GOAT actor Nicolas Cage's WWII film Windtalkers was fantasy. It's actually a true story.

 

[Darts]

Due to that the Japanese Navy didn't know that the carriers were out to sea when they attacked Pearl Harbour
"USS Enterprise left Pearl on November 28 to ferry aircraft to Wake Island, part of the general strategy for reinforcing U.S. defenses across the Pacific. She returned to Pearl on the evening of the attack, returning to sea shortly thereafter to pursue the Japanese strike force. USS Lexington departed Pearl on December 5 on a similar mission to Midway. She returned to Pearl on December 13, after spending some time hunting the Japanese strike force." I think once the enemy strike force left the home islands, they had to attack regardless.

and the Germans massed all their defenses at Calais on D-Day. General Patton was the decoy and the German fell for it.
The code was based on Navaho script which left the Axis bamboozled.

"An estimated 33,000 Japanese Americans served in the U.S. military during World War II, of which 20,000 joined the Army. Approximately 800 were killed in action. The 100th/ 442nd Infantry Regiment became the most decorated unit in U.S. military history."

What If Japan Sunk America's Aircraft Carriers at Pearl Harbor? | The National Interest

 

[jcpro]

Here's what I remember of the sinking of the Bismarck.
1) HMS Hood sank because a shell went though its wooden deck.
2) The bi-planes flew so slow and so low, the Bismarck had to recalibrate its guns.
3) A lucky torpedo hit disabled the steering gear and the Bismarck could only go in circles.
4) A flotilla of British ships kept firing shells into the Bismarck forcing its eventual sinking.

HMS Hood did not have a wooden deck, it had steel armored deck, but Hood was not a battle ship it was a battle cruiser which meant that some of the protection had to be thinner in order to achieve speed. HMS Hood was also old and in a bad need of an update including deck protection reinforcement- it was even scheduled for it.
The Swordfish torpedo planes did not get lucky. They executed a deliberate attack from a very close range and in very difficult conditions that resulted in at least two hits without losing any planes. Old bi-planes they were, but they performed as designed and their pilots were men of steel with brass balls.

 

[The Fox]

Interesting thread although you folks are ranking the wrong things.

I served in the British RN. I can say we were the best and dominated every drinking competition. US sailors were proper wet behind the ears and couldn’t drink for shit.

Although the food on USS Kitty Hawk was out of this world.

And no sailor, in any port around the world, could beat ‘Sharky’ in a fist fight.

case closed

 

[Darts]

I served in the British RN.

I had a co-worker who was in the RN (sadly he has since passed). Is it true that British sailor often say:

"My you have a girl in every port,
and a port in every girl"

 

[The Fox]

I had a co-worker who was in the RN (sadly he has since passed). Is it true that British sailor often say:

"My you have a girl in every port,
and a port in every girl"
View attachment 114362

Sorry to hear about your friend Darts.

I’m not too familiar with the saying “port in every girl” but I certainly am and experienced first hand, ‘a girl in every port’.

 

[jcpro]

Interesting thread although you folks are ranking the wrong things.

I served in the British RN. I can say we were the best and dominated every drinking competition. US sailors were proper wet behind the ears and couldn’t drink for shit.

Although the food on USS Kitty Hawk was out of this world.

And no sailor, in any port around the world, could beat ‘Sharky’ in a fist fight.

case closed

To be fair the American naval vessels are dry, so their sailors are not afforded the opportunity to practice. Where as the Brits practically lived on grog. The Brits, being islanders, have a very long naval tradition and any engagement hesitantations were removed from their officers' corps when the Admiralty had Byng executed, setting an example and delivering a valuable lesson that paid off thousand fold over the next couple of centuries.