Similar to the vaccine, having natural antibodies isn't a 100% effective solution. "So-called experts" aren't ignoring it and are actually studying the effect of natural antibodies. No argument from me that natural antibodies do exist. Having said that, your original post was questioning the effectiveness of vaccine passports. A couple weeks ago my friends and I went to a bar downtown on King Street. There were 11 of us, 6 fully vaxxed and 5 unvaxxed. A few days later we found out that there was a covid breakout at said bar. Of the 5 unvaxxed, 2 became moderately sick and the other 3 were incapacitated for a week. They all said it's the worse they've ever felt. Luckily, no one had to be hospitalized. Turns out, they had all contracted the delta variant. Out of the 6 of us that were vaxxed, one contracted the delta variant and had very mild symptoms. The rest of us tested negative and felt completely fine. So if the goal is to prevent widespread transmission, hospitalizations and further lockdowns, then yes, the passport will be effective.
Ontario Vaccine Passport
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Look, this is all a statistics and probability game here. Nobody can predict the future and what will happen. We can only look at the data and make the best decision accordingly. While you might have people in your close circle that had these heart issues, it's clearly a very rare side effect that might occur. Now why I say it's a numbers game is because the likelihood of someone getting covid-19 and dying is so much higher than someone getting this heart condition that it's still a no brainer to get the vaccine and I still recomme it as does most of the world. I mean even covid 19 causes heart inflammation. Why would you focus on the risk that is less likely to occur and ignore the thing that's far more likely to occur?
This article shows that you're about 6 times more likely to get myocarditis from covid than the vaccine.
Myocarditis is more common after covid-19 infection than vaccination
A preliminary study suggests that, among those most likely to develop myocarditis, the heart condition is six times more likely to occur after having covid-19 than after getting vaccinated
www.newscientist.com
The other key thing is to just look at the Ontario hospitalization numbers.
Dataset - Ontario Data Catalogue
Understanding that about 75% of eligible ontarions are vaccinated, that means there's about 3 times as many fully vaccinated people than unvaccinated people. Yet the unvaccinated people are making up a much much larger portion of people in hospital and ICUs right now. It's like 10 to 1 in hospitalizations and 5 to 1 in ICU. You need to multiply those ratios by 3 to get a clearer per capita view. Basically you're something like 30 times more likely to be hospitalized due to covid 19 if you're not fully vaccinated. Millions have died from the virus. Millions have not died from the vaccine. Facing the risks of the vaccine is a lot better proposition than dealing with the risks of covid 19.
The last thing is it's important to consider that perhaps you don't feel the need for the vaccine but everyone can be a carrier. Being vaccinated means you should have a lower probability of spreading it as well. You may not die from covid but the next person you give it to might. So getting vaccinated just helps everyone and speeds up the recovery.
Since December 2020, more than 350 million doses of COVID-19 vaccine have been administered in the U.S., and VAERS has received 6,968 reports of death (0.0019%), according to the CDC. (Numbers as of Aug. 26, 2021.)
However, that statistic offers no insight into the cause of death for those people. If a 90-year-old nursing home resident got the vaccine and then died days, weeks or even months later of another ailment, the resident’s death would be reported to VAERS.
I also know a young healthy friend who died from taking the vaccine, but I'm not against vaccinations and I believe anyone who's at risk should consider getting vaccinated. I am however against forcing everyone to get the vaccine, as there are risks with vaccines and they are not 100% effective and they don't provide long-term protection and plus the virus is not so deadly. Sure some people get really sick, but 98% recover. In my life twice I got so sick from some virus that I thought I was dying, but I recovered. People who say this the deadliest virus either have not gotten a bad case of flu or don't know anything about viruses. You say the unvaccinated person that catches it may not die from covid, but the person they may transmit the virus to might and I'll argue that is the precisely the people I encourage to get vaccinated so that they will not die and if they do you can't blame it on the unvaccinated as a vaccinated can easily infect them too especially that they don't think they can as they believe they are vaccinated.
Lol that is not true at all and I had this conversation with a few physicians who say vaccine deaths are being unreported. You can have someone dying from blood clots or myocardial infarction same day or the day after taking the vaccine and that would get reported as the reason of death as opposed to the vaccine. Remember until recently the vaccines were not even approved so there was no pharmocovigilence system in place for people to report adverse events to and for pharmaceutical companies to capture/document and report to the federal health agencies such as FDA or Health Canada.
Converserly a lot of deaths were being classified as covid-19 especially at the beginning of the pandemic and during last year when it wasn't the case and I was shown proof of that.
I still don't get the effectiveness of the passport from your example. Previous to that the bar would have called everyone to tell them there was a report of a covid breakout so nothing new here. What really would change in your example is with the passport that day/night you went with your friends only 6 would go and 5 would not be able to join the rest of the group. The 6 could still get covid from a vaccinated person there with the virus and the app would alert you the same. The 5 could still get covid at a private gathering. People don't catch the virus only from places the passport are being mandated for. Do I believe vaccines help when someone catches the virus? Yes, as long as the person still has immunity. I'm not anti-vaxxer I believe the vaccines help people. I do not believe that everyone requires the vaccine though. Those who get sick may or may not have a hard time dealing with the virus and the majority recover with natural immunity. What would be interesting is comparing vaccine immunity vs natural immunity and I'm actually doing this experiment with some friends.
Going back to your example, can you tell me why now that your 5 friends who got covid and recovered and have natural immunity cannot join the rest of the group at the bar next time by having the app consider them as "vaccinated"?
It doesn't look like Spas will be mandated to do this, but even if they were, I just don't trust that these parlours will handle my personal info appropriately, regardless of any BS they may say to the contrary. If there's a way to verify vaccination status without exchanging personal info, I may stomach that, but obviously it would be easy to fake.
The whole freedom debate is no longer relevant now. The overwhelming majority of Canadians are vaccinated, so this mandate essentially changes nothing for them, and all of them will be too complacent to do anything about it, even if it means their essential freedoms are being eroded. The few remaining non-vaxxed will either be forced to get vaccinated, break the law, or go live with the Amish.
The whole freedom debate is no longer relevant now. The overwhelming majority of Canadians are vaccinated, so this mandate essentially changes nothing for them, and all of them will be too complacent to do anything about it, even if it means their essential freedoms are being eroded. The few remaining non-vaxxed will either be forced to get vaccinated, break the law, or go live with the Amish.
I am not too sure what all this controversy is all about. Like what a previous poster wrote, If you want to get jerked off by a hot chick, get vaccinated and show your proof of vaccination when you choose to use the services of a spa. It greatly reduces the risk of COVID exposure to the attendants/staff working a the spa, and the hundreds of dudes that use those services at the spa.
If you're concerned about your privacy, stay home, log into your VPN service and spend your evening on Pornhub.
If you're concerned about your privacy, stay home, log into your VPN service and spend your evening on Pornhub.
We were all exposed, all 5 unvaccinated friends caught it (severe symptoms), 1 vaxxed friend caught it (mild symptoms) and the remaining 5 of us were fine and tested negative. I think you're missing the point of the passport. It's not to stop transmission, it's to minimize it. Clearly the risk of transmission is significantly reduced if you're fully vaxxed so that's why businesses are on board with only having fully vaxxed patrons inside. Not sure why this concept is so difficult to grasp.
And my 5 friends all went to get their first shot after they recovered. So they'll be able to join the rest of us soon enough.
I've heard it is not a good idea to get vaccinated right after having built natural immunity to the virus. I'd suggest your friends look into it or ask their MDs to be on the safe side.
Anyway, you haven't answered my question as to why those 5 should not automatically be considered as "vaccinated" on the passport app seeing how they all now have strong natural immunity to the virus.
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It's not difficult to grasp we just don't see eye to eye. You assume that all unvaccinated have no protection against covid and that's incorrect.
Can you tell me why would you still need to wear a mask and social distance once you get your app going and only the "vaccinated" will be able to partake in various activities going forward?
Can't you say the same thing in reverse? If you're too scared about the virus, then you're the one who should stay the f*ck home and leave normal living to the rest of us. I want to protect the elderly and the vulnerable and make sure there's every system in place to prevent their harm from this virus, but not at the expense of forcing everyone else, including healthy adults and kids, to injecting medicine they may not need which potentially have serious side-effects. UK doctors are already recommending NOT vaccinating kids under 15 years old for that reason.
Anyway, like I said, it doesn't matter now, everybody's getting shot whether they like it or not.
Seems like you're definitely having a different conversation in your head. Nowhere did I say the unvaxxed have zero protection as we both agreed antibodies are a decent defense.
And masking/social distancing is still encouraged because while transmission is significantly reduced between fully vaccinated individuals, breakthrough cases can still happen. All you're doing now is arguing the same point, which I've answered several times. You're argument is based on 100% vaccine effectiveness and zero transmission among fully vaxxed individuals, which not a single person is claiming. What we are saying is transmission is significantly reduced so our case numbers will decrease and another lockdown can be prevented. You say it's not a difficult concept to grasp, but you're clearly having trouble understanding why these decisions are being made.
You wrote "Clearly the risk of transmission is significantly reduced if you're fully vaxxed so that's why businesses are on board with only having fully vaxxed patrons inside."
Clearly you're contradicting yourself when you write "Nowhere did I say the unvaxxed have zero protection as we both agreed antibodies are a decent defense."
If you agree that natural immunity provides decent defense against the virus, then why do you support the notion of only having fully vaxxed patrons inside? It should be fully vaxxed and those with natural immunity. I'm not the one confused.
Last time I checked, I'm not a business. You were the one complaining about vaccine passports and I told you why businesses support it and why it makes sense. Reasons for businesses supporting a mandate and me acknowledging unvaccinated individuals have antibodies are two seperate things. So yes, I'd say you are the one confused.
Just a question take it as you want..but with all these protocols are we suggesting that being vaxxed is stopping people from passing covid along when most can acknowledge that right now the vaccine isn't even a vaccine and more so is just a shot...we are pretty much agreeing to having big brother monitor our movements under the guise of safety protocols...
Why would I stay the fuck home when I fulfilled my civic duties and got myself vaccinated? It's selfish people who spend all their time on Reddit reading conspiracy theories who are pulling the rest of society down. Given that a significant
majority of Canadians have done their part, why would we have to sacrifice our lives for a small minority?
Here's an Op-ed that everyone should read: https://www.latimes.com/opinion/sto...cination-intensive-care-respiratory-therapist
It's something that I don't want anyone to have to go through.
You do realise that the employees dont need proof of vacina
Picture this employer mandates covid shots, employee takea it, and in turn dies or is permanently disabled as there is lots of cases...... What than?
Of course the government isn't going to mandate mandatory vaccination for business staff. Ontarians need to work in order to pay their bills and put food on the table, regardless of vaccination status. The general expectation though is that businesses will have more customers inside than employees. Since 75% of the eligible population is vaccinated, the assumption is a lot of staff will be as well. Also, many businesses are going even further by taking it upon themselves to enforce mandatory vaccination for staff.
And there aren't a lot of cases of permanent disability or death from the vaccines. There have been severe cases of VITT with the AstraZeneca vaccines and even those are still rare. We just hear more about them because they're pushed to the forefront. You do know Canada has a national vaccine injury compensation program right? If permanent disability and death was as significant as you claim, let's be real, it would make no sense to implement such a program.
