Harvard scientist says Trump hatred motivated experts who denied Wuhan lab leak theory

Butler1000

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I think that's fair. (It may even do so formally but that's way outside my stats geek knowledge.)



Since the Razor is kind of ad hoc, it depends a lot on what you consider complex and that's obviously going to be subjective, I agree.

Actually, this brings up a point that partially explains some of the controversy.
There are kind of two ways to approach the problem and they will affect how different pieces of evidence move you.
One is like a null hypothesis. This is how I'm approaching it. The vast majority of diseases and outbreaks are from zoonotic spillover so that's the default assumption unless evidence shows up we should reject it.
The other is more like choosing between two theories. There are two theories and we are amassing competing evidence. That seems to be how you and others are approaching it.
(I'm sure some people are doing null hypothesis with lab as the default, but I don't think they are that common.)

They will both lead to the same answer in the end if evidence is strong. (If we find lab notes describing the May, 2019 collection and study of a virus with 99%+ similarity to SARS-CoV-2 then I like to think everyone will agree the laboratory escape theory becomes pretty much proven.) But the gray area stuff is going to move people differently. From a null hypothesis, a vague piece of evidence becomes "interesting, but doesn't really move the needle to reject the null" while from a competing theory version it might be "this adds some wait to the Theory B pile".



Here I disagree with you.
Adding all those factors does make it a more complex theory.
But Occam doesn't say to reject the more complex theory - it says to pick the simpler one if other things are equal. (Well, there are lots of versions of the thing.)
As more evidence comes in, things get less equal.



And that seems fine. I disagree with Nate's priors here. I think 50 is way too high. (Also, I think Nate is kind of terrible outside of poll aggregation and sports stats. :) )

With both of you at 50 (more or less) you're going to react to ambiguous evidence more than I will because I'm at the further end of the scale waiting for a reason to reject the null hypothesis.

Since I doubt we will get anything like a definitive answer anytime soon, we are likely to disagree for quite some time.
They have a bat breeding area in the lab and were conducting gain of function experiments. So they is a very good chance the created the crossover and it got out. The lab apoarently wasn't set up properly with the right security.
Sure as hell isn't the first time a Chinese business skirted safety policies.
 
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Valcazar

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Sure as hell isn't the first time a Chinese business skirted safety policies.
No it isn't. It still doesn't add up to a "very good chance" in my books.
We have different priors, that's fine.
If I start to see real evidence other than a convenient narrative, my priors will get updated.

How come none of you ever cite Australia?

WHO scientist has moved lab leak theory from possible to the probable category:
Only he doesn't. He says a lab worker being infected in the field counts as probable, which has always been part of the zoonotic jump theory.
(You can make an argument it straddles the line as part of "laboratory escape". )
 
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Phil C. McNasty

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Only he doesn't. He says a lab worker being infected in the field counts as probable, which has always been part of the zoonotic jump theory.
(You can make an argument it straddles the line as part of "laboratory escape". )
Does it really matter if he got infected in the field, or if he got infected after taking one of those bats back to the lab with him??
Bottom line is China should stop fucking around with these animals and leave them alone.
Next time it could be a different and a lot worse virus thats released, and kills people like Ebola or AIDS does.
Now then you're looking at a REAL pandemic
 

jcpro

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Valcazar

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Does it really matter if he got infected in the field, or if he got infected after taking one of those bats back to the lab with him??
Bottom line is China should stop fucking around with these animals and leave them alone.
Gonna disagree.
Scientists doing this work is a good thing.

Why do you guys just keep posting the same Embarek statement with different headlines?
 
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Phil C. McNasty

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y2kmark

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You're missing the part where the scientists had to actually explain Rayleigh scattering because Trump said the sky was blue because it was the blue blood of angels or something else stupid like that if you took the sky and mixed it with yellow paint you would get green.
Green sky would increase global warming further...
 

basketcase

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WHO scientist has moved lab leak theory from possible to the probable category:

Strange that even the Post, hardly a bastion of level headed reporting, says :
“An employee who was infected in the field by taking samples falls under one of the probable hypotheses,” Ben Embarek told the interviewers.

So it is possible that a bat researcher working for the ab was out in the wild testing bats. Doesn't say anything about the virus being made in the lab. Does it really matter whether a wild bat infected a lab working or a random person?
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Strange that even the Post, hardly a bastion of level headed reporting, says :
“An employee who was infected in the field by taking samples falls under one of the probable hypotheses,” Ben Embarek told the interviewers.

So it is possible that a bat researcher working for the ab was out in the wild testing bats. Doesn't say anything about the virus being made in the lab
I never said the virus was made in a lab, I said the virus MAY have been brought back to the lab after it was collected in the field

Does it really matter whether a wild bat infected a lab working or a random person?
It matters in that China should quit fucking around with nature by collecting bats who carry viruses like this.

Just leave it alone already
 
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basketcase

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I never said the virus was made in a lab,
Except what you say below
It matters in that China should quit fucking around with nature by collecting bats who carry viruses like this.

Just leave it alone already

Of course you have zero idea what China is doing or how it compares to any other research other than hearing the term "gain of function" and want everyone to panic despite not knowing what it is actually about.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Except what you say below


Of course you have zero idea what China is doing or how it compares to any other research other than hearing the term "gain of function" and want everyone to panic despite not knowing what it is actually about.
Jeezus christ, are you really this dense??!! 😂
I never claimed China created some artificial virus in a lab so that they could release it intentionally and cause a global pandemic.

What I said was its been well documented that the Wuhan lab collected bat viruses for study, and that they possibly got careless and somehow accidently released the virus into the outside world. Read what the BBC wrote about Wuhan lab collecting bat viruses over the past decade:




What is the lab-leak theory?
It's a suspicion that the coronavirus may have escaped, accidentally or otherwise, from a laboratory in the central Chinese city of Wuhan where the virus was first recorded.

Its supporters point to the presence of a major biological research facility in the city. The Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV) has been studying coronaviruses in bats for over a decade.
 

basketcase

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Jeezus christ, are you really this dense??!! 😂
I never claimed China created some artificial virus in a lab so that they could release it intentionally and cause a global pandemic.
...
Right, you just claimed China was fucking with nature by testing viruses in bats.

The rest of your post can be summed up with the word "possibly". Care to show any evidence that this guy was bit by a bat carrying covid and was the source of the pandemic? Sure it is a possibility but since we're discussing "science", they tend to based statements on available evidence.
 

Campington

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Sorry to jump in here, but honest question.

If tomorrow the world is presented with irrefutable evidence that fully supports the story that COVID-19 ”escaped from a lab,” how do our lives change?

Like, does this change our response to the pandemic? Does it justify / necessitate economic, diplomatic or even military intervention with China? Something else?

Or, do the Wikipedia articles get edited, all the major news media outlets acknowledge it, and we go back to our regularly scheduled pandemic?
 

Phil C. McNasty

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Right, you just claimed China was fucking with nature by testing viruses in bats
They are. They collect bat viruses from caves and study those in labs.
They have admitted as much, and have been doing this for at least the last 10 years or so.

But collecting bat viruses and creating artificial viruses in a lab are not the same thing.
It sounds like you havent done much research on this topic.

Creating artificial viruses in a lab is called synthetic virology: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_virology
This is NOT the same as collecting live bat viruses from caves and studying them for vaccine research.

All I was suggesting is that I do NOT think China was manufacturing artificial viruses for some military objective, and then released that artificial virus into the world to cause a pandemic on purpose.

What I WAS suggesting however is that Wuhan lab collected some bat viruses for vaccine research, brought them back to the lab, got careless and somehow the virus escaped into the populace by accident.

The rest of your post can be summed up with the word "possibly". Care to show any evidence that this guy was bit by a bat carrying covid and was the source of the pandemic? Sure it is a possibility but since we're discussing "science", they tend to based statements on available evidence
There is lots of circumstantial evidence.

1. The Wuhan lab collects bat viruses, and the pandemic started in Wuhan. Coincidence??
2. Three workers at Wuhan lab became sick with a flu-like illness and sought hospital care in November 2019. Their symptoms were consistent with both COVID-19 and common seasonal illness. Link: https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210524/wuhan-lab-researchers-illness
3. And last but not least, China wont allow the WHO into Wuhan lab to do an investigation. What do they have to hide??!!

Thats enough for any rational person to have reasonable suspicion this virus may have escaped from a lab
 
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