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Woke Math mandatory for grade 9 - Ontario

Vera.Reis

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Jan 20, 2020
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No one's doing that, math exists in many forms, there's nothing wrong with teaching children how to use an abacus, for example, even though it is not from "our" culture. I learned Roman numerals even though they aren't from our culture as well. I also looked at quipu in one class and it helped me think of mathematics in a different way which only served to make me more flexible in how I use numbers - not a bad thing.

It is better, not worse, to learn how other societies approach and use math, giving your kids a larger tool kit to understand numbers will seriously help battle the innumeracy that plagues the west.
 
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Vera.Reis

Mediterranean Paramour
Jan 20, 2020
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Toronto
X=5 That is the only answer hat works.
As for your second point, a city kid should be able to answer how many acres a plot of land 10 rods by 10 rods is as long as those terms are defined. Because... math is universal.
The ability to see connections with previous skills should be expected and taught, to not do so is to hold students to too low of a standard.
If you only got x=5 and were unable to understand the significance of the sentence that was nested in, then I have nothing further to engage here.
 
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curr3n_c1000

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Dec 20, 2014
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Math should not come with any subjectivity or ideologies period. It is discovered not invented. It is true regardless of the bullshit ideas we have cooking up in our mind.

Any ideology that promotes tribalism division hate fear etc. is toxic an divisive.

We only belong to one tribe which is consciousness. Humanity is a sub tribe to this. So are different levels of animals and if aliens exist they would belong to this as well.

Everything else is divisive and promotes people to segregate themselves and develop toxic ideologies like they did with religion. It’s fine and beautiful as long as you are born within this system or country but if you are born outside beyond your choice you become an outsider.

The truth should be discovered regardless of the ideologies or parents or countries you are born in. If someone or something prevents you to discover the truth because of an idea it is not heathy and does not promote you to discover what is truth rather then having someone else do it for you.

With math once you understand first principles and see the tools available that were discovered you should be able to see how everything else is derived idea free and subjectivity free.
You basically you don't know what your are speaking on and creating a scenario that doesn't exist.

You're trying to Bluff your way through this and not is it not working, but you are misleading others that are not informed.

Please watch the video and get a basic foundation on what is really happening.

This old method of streaming is failing parts of society. What you wrongfully interpreted as "Woke" is the Ministry addressing they have a system that funnels certain groups of students into a subpar education path.

You are completely off base with your remarks in this thread because you are uninformed and reluctant to learn.
 

Roleplayer

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Jun 29, 2010
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Math should not come with any subjectivity or ideologies period. It is discovered not invented. It is true regardless of the bullshit ideas we have cooking up in our mind.
I would describe this as a half-truth. The statement that math is discovered and not invented has value, especially when given to a high school student who is under the mistaken impression that mathematical rules are made up and don't make sense. However, that doesn't lead to the notion that math should not come with any subjectivity or is true regardless of the "bullshit" ideas we have cooking up in our mind.

When I was in 3rd year algebra, one of my assignments was to prove a theorem that was a consequence of the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic (which states that prime factorization is unique up to order.) I was the only person in the class to (correctly) state that the theorem wasn't true. Why? Because the text we were using had used a slightly peculiar definition of prime numbers, which included negatives. Under that definition, the FTA isn't true, and so neither was the assigned theorem. So was the definition wrong? Not precisely. The justification for using it was that it brought the definition of prime in line with another concept known as irreducible, and so it had a certain advantage. This kind of thing isn't that unusual by the way; often if you look carefully at university-level text books, they use slightly different definitions of concepts, and sometimes even subtle differences can have far-reaching consequences. The point being that the definition mattered, and so in math the correctness of particular conclusions actually depends on the constructions that we establish. You always have to take something as axiomatic, and rethinking those axioms can be very significant.

Is the sum of the interior angles in a triangle always 180 degrees? Many people would instantly take this as an absolute, but it isn't exactly true to say this statement holds. It does in Euclidean geometry, but it doesn't in non-Euclidean geometry. In essence then it is a consequence of the parallel postulate, and when that axiom is no longer taken, the truth of the statement changes. In other words, mathematical truth can be contextual. Non-Euclidean geometry is, of course, not only entirely valid, but essential to our understanding of how the universe works.

I studied the history of mathematics, and there can be a lot of value in understanding how different cultures approach the subject. Pythagorean Theorem is a great example. An enormous variety of proofs have emerged from different places in the world, and in general being able to see different ways of arriving at conclusions can be very instructive. But there are some interesting historical questions surrounding this also, such as the philosophical attachments to the theorem (and Pythagoreanism generally). Or why we refer to it as the Pythagorean Theorem in the first place? This is not necessarily sinister, but it's worth asking the question when Pythagoras was absolutely not the first person to establish the relationship.

Where you really can't divorce math from subjectivity is in its application. Certain results drawn from a mathematical model might be objective, but whether or not that model effectively represents a real-word situation, or how to interpret those results, is rarely so clear-cut. I've seen plenty of situations where people did some calculations correctly but ultimately drew (in my view) the wrong conclusions in the way they interpreted their results. Statistics is a mathematical discipline dripping with this.

I don't think any reasonable person is going to argue that if one student gets an answer of 6, and the answer is actually 4, then we should somehow give the student the impression their solution is equally valid. That's not what's being discussed. The point is that even mathematical truth isn't quite as simple as it's often made out to be, that the historical and cultural context of mathematical study is significant, and that the application and interpretation of math cannot be so easily separated from a person's point of view. Personally, I do think it would be wise for math education to pay more attention to these things.

Which is not to say that I necessarily agree with everything the government is doing here. Firstly, the curriculum is not the end-all be-all of education. How the subject actually gets taught in practice is much more complicated, so the jury's still out on a lot of this. Destreaming grade 9 might have some benefits (and some negative consequences too), but I also think it's roughly equivalent to saying you can get rid of a problem by pretending it doesn't exist. The reality is that students have had radically different experiences in their education long before then, whether it's officially recognized or not. Destreaming grade 9 is not going to change the fact that many students are not put in a position to succeed at that level. My experience suggests that this problem may be aggravated by aspects of identity such as ethnicity and gender, but it is still universal. If a student has had a lacklustre math education prior to grade 9, it's extremely difficult to make an effective difference at that point. There are systemic issues at a lower level that desperately need to be addressed.
 

Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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What exactly was your kid taught that you didn't agree with?

Why can't you give an actual event of the toxic divisive ideologies?
Because this is all probably in his head. He's trapped in a paradigm lock. His whole thing is "no one should have an ideology" by which he means "everyone has to have my ideology".
I've come to assume this irony is due to some degree of self-awareness on his part. He knows this about himself and so he is trying very hard to embrace a philosophy where he can overcome it.

Game, set and match.
Only in the real world. :)

If you only got x=5 and were unable to understand the significance of the sentence that was nested in, then I have nothing further to engage here.
I thought the point of your comment was quite clear.

This old method of streaming is failing parts of society. What you wrongfully interpreted as "Woke" is the Ministry addressing they have a system that funnels certain groups of students into a subpar education path.
To be fair, I don't think he is actually complaining about the streaming.
I don't think he cares about that.
He just read the word "woke" and got triggered.

I would describe this as a half-truth. The statement that math is discovered and not invented has value, especially when given to a high school student who is under the mistaken impression that mathematical rules are made up and don't make sense. However, that doesn't lead to the notion that math should not come with any subjectivity or is true regardless of the "bullshit" ideas we have cooking up in our mind.
This was all excellent, btw.

Which is not to say that I necessarily agree with everything the government is doing here. Firstly, the curriculum is not the end-all be-all of education. How the subject actually gets taught in practice is much more complicated, so the jury's still out on a lot of this.
This is a huge part of it.

Destreaming grade 9 might have some benefits (and some negative consequences too), but I also think it's roughly equivalent to saying you can get rid of a problem by pretending it doesn't exist. The reality is that students have had radically different experiences in their education long before then, whether it's officially recognized or not. Destreaming grade 9 is not going to change the fact that many students are not put in a position to succeed at that level. My experience suggests that this problem may be aggravated by aspects of identity such as ethnicity and gender, but it is still universal. If a student has had a lacklustre math education prior to grade 9, it's extremely difficult to make an effective difference at that point. There are systemic issues at a lower level that desperately need to be addressed.
Anyone who thinks this is a magic bullet is kidding themselves, of course. There is a whole lot of work to be done in overhauling things. (That will all get accused of being terrible and wrong because it was "changed from how I learned it when I was a kid" and so on.) I do think destreaming in general is the right idea, there seems to be little benefit to streaming early the way Ontario was doing it.
 

explorerzip

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2006
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I would describe this as a half-truth. The statement that math is discovered and not invented has value, especially when given to a high school student who is under the mistaken impression that mathematical rules are made up and don't make sense. However, that doesn't lead to the notion that math should not come with any subjectivity or is true regardless of the "bullshit" ideas we have cooking up in our mind.

When I was in 3rd year algebra, one of my assignments was to prove a theorem that was a consequence of the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic (which states that prime factorization is unique up to order.) I was the only person in the class to (correctly) state that the theorem wasn't true. Why? Because the text we were using had used a slightly peculiar definition of prime numbers, which included negatives. Under that definition, the FTA isn't true, and so neither was the assigned theorem. So was the definition wrong? Not precisely. The justification for using it was that it brought the definition of prime in line with another concept known as irreducible, and so it had a certain advantage. This kind of thing isn't that unusual by the way; often if you look carefully at university-level text books, they use slightly different definitions of concepts, and sometimes even subtle differences can have far-reaching consequences. The point being that the definition mattered, and so in math the correctness of particular conclusions actually depends on the constructions that we establish. You always have to take something as axiomatic, and rethinking those axioms can be very significant.

Is the sum of the interior angles in a triangle always 180 degrees? Many people would instantly take this as an absolute, but it isn't exactly true to say this statement holds. It does in Euclidean geometry, but it doesn't in non-Euclidean geometry. In essence then it is a consequence of the parallel postulate, and when that axiom is no longer taken, the truth of the statement changes. In other words, mathematical truth can be contextual. Non-Euclidean geometry is, of course, not only entirely valid, but essential to our understanding of how the universe works.

I studied the history of mathematics, and there can be a lot of value in understanding how different cultures approach the subject. Pythagorean Theorem is a great example. An enormous variety of proofs have emerged from different places in the world, and in general being able to see different ways of arriving at conclusions can be very instructive. But there are some interesting historical questions surrounding this also, such as the philosophical attachments to the theorem (and Pythagoreanism generally). Or why we refer to it as the Pythagorean Theorem in the first place? This is not necessarily sinister, but it's worth asking the question when Pythagoras was absolutely not the first person to establish the relationship.

Where you really can't divorce math from subjectivity is in its application. Certain results drawn from a mathematical model might be objective, but whether or not that model effectively represents a real-word situation, or how to interpret those results, is rarely so clear-cut. I've seen plenty of situations where people did some calculations correctly but ultimately drew (in my view) the wrong conclusions in the way they interpreted their results. Statistics is a mathematical discipline dripping with this.

I don't think any reasonable person is going to argue that if one student gets an answer of 6, and the answer is actually 4, then we should somehow give the student the impression their solution is equally valid. That's not what's being discussed. The point is that even mathematical truth isn't quite as simple as it's often made out to be, that the historical and cultural context of mathematical study is significant, and that the application and interpretation of math cannot be so easily separated from a person's point of view. Personally, I do think it would be wise for math education to pay more attention to these things.

Which is not to say that I necessarily agree with everything the government is doing here. Firstly, the curriculum is not the end-all be-all of education. How the subject actually gets taught in practice is much more complicated, so the jury's still out on a lot of this. Destreaming grade 9 might have some benefits (and some negative consequences too), but I also think it's roughly equivalent to saying you can get rid of a problem by pretending it doesn't exist. The reality is that students have had radically different experiences in their education long before then, whether it's officially recognized or not. Destreaming grade 9 is not going to change the fact that many students are not put in a position to succeed at that level. My experience suggests that this problem may be aggravated by aspects of identity such as ethnicity and gender, but it is still universal. If a student has had a lacklustre math education prior to grade 9, it's extremely difficult to make an effective difference at that point. There are systemic issues at a lower level that desperately need to be addressed.
Very well written. Thank you. IMO, math is mostly an invented concept. Humans invented numbers and mathematical concepts to try to explain the world and universe. The problem of course, is that our models are not correct 100% of the time.
 
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basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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When I was in school, subjects like Calculus were optional. Did that change?
Don't think so but many university bound kids still take it assuming the harder classes are for smart kids instead of just taking courses that are relevant for them. Calc is a pre-req for many university programs.
 

TeeJay

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Jun 20, 2011
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Theoretical mathematicians discover new and disprove old theories all the time. Math is not as objective and concrete as you're making it out to be.
You do understand this post is on the fundamentals of math being taught at an elementary school level and high school level?

There is NOTHING "theoretical" at this point whatsoever (and trying to be "inclusive" for certain ethnic minorities is just as laughable as the California ebonics classes for english were back in the day; its not like blacks are suddenly dominant race at college level)
 
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Frankfooter

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Apr 10, 2015
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You do understand this post is on the fundamentals of math being taught at an elementary school level and high school level?

There is NOTHING "theoretical" at this point whatsoever (and trying to be "inclusive" for certain ethnic minorities is just as laughable as the California ebonics classes for english were back in the day; its not like blacks are suddenly dominant race at college level)
You really didn't understand her posts, did you?
 

TeeJay

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Jun 20, 2011
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Still trying to figure out what people are so against.
Is it Algebra? Coding? Financial literacy?
Which of these is "woke" and therefore supposed to not be taught?
History

If you want to teach history teach history
Historical math? And how it enables systemic racism?
And how to position math within cultural contexts?


Pretty laughable (and for the record I strongly suspect this is some white sjw and not an actual black or native request)

Here is actual link for you to read over, just put the drink down 1st



" Teachers may respectfully incorporate culturally specific examples that highlight First Nations, Inuit, and Métis cultures, histories, present-day realities, ways of knowing, and contributions, to infuse Indigenous knowledges and perspectives meaningfully and authentically into the mathematics program. In this way, culturally specific examples make visible the colonial contexts of present-day mathematics education, centre Indigenous students as mathematical thinkers, and strengthen learning and course content so that all students continue to learn about diverse cultures and communities in a respectful and informed way. Students’ mind, body, and spirit are nourished through connections and creativity. "
 

Nesbot

Well-known member
Jan 25, 2016
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History

If you want to teach history teach history
Historical math? And how it enables systemic racism?
And how to position math within cultural contexts?


Pretty laughable (and for the record I strongly suspect this is some white sjw and not an actual black or native request)

Here is actual link for you to read over, just put the drink down 1st



" Teachers may respectfully incorporate culturally specific examples that highlight First Nations, Inuit, and Métis cultures, histories, present-day realities, ways of knowing, and contributions, to infuse Indigenous knowledges and perspectives meaningfully and authentically into the mathematics program. In this way, culturally specific examples make visible the colonial contexts of present-day mathematics education, centre Indigenous students as mathematical thinkers, and strengthen learning and course content so that all students continue to learn about diverse cultures and communities in a respectful and informed way. Students’ mind, body, and spirit are nourished through connections and creativity. "
Nothing in your link or example makes this in any way a negative for people to learn. What are you against? Because from your own link the MATH is the same. You're only against the fact that maybe people that look like you did bad things. Ohh the horror!!!!
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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The sentence I quoted was pretty black and white (as is math)
But go ahead and try to twist it into another shape

What do YOU think she is saying?
That its not as black and white as you think.
Its a process and there are lots of ways to get there, some work better for different people.
 
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Vera.Reis

Mediterranean Paramour
Jan 20, 2020
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That its not as black and white as you think.
Its a process and there are lots of ways to get there, some work better for different people.
Exactly, and that comment was from the evolution of the discussion. People cannot say math is black and white, because it isn't. It is to those who only understand basic mathematics, but innumeracy is so high even for the basics that we do need to consider teaching kids that it isn't as rigid as people make it out to be, then maybe they wouldn't be so scared of it.

I'll give the group a euro centric example since it will make them feel more comfortable, my dad's family immigrated from Brasil to Portugal, when my dad does long form division it is completely backwards from what I was taught and confused the hell out of me until he showed me how he does it. Knowing another way to do long form division only made me better at math because it forced me to think of numbers slightly differently.

I was ALWAYS naturally good at math, from grade 2 I was beating all my classmates in flash card games and those 60s drills. But come secondary school where I was being forced into a math box I started butting heads with my teacher since I wasn't following all their exact steps on paper as my brain did most of the work just by looking at the equation. My teachers consistently tried to dock me points even though my final answer was correct and my parents were in there consistently arguing with them that writing all the steps is semantics and what matters is that I learn the concepts and get the correct final answer.

Things like this is why students struggle, the concept of mathematics is a construct, your grade school math level might not have taught you this, but it is. Western society early on agreed on a set of mathematical rules that if ever disrupted would make math impossible - an easy example of this is BEDMAS, we HAVE to write equations to follow this, if we don't no one will get the right answer. BEDMAS is not a natural concept, it is a construct, and there are many more of them in math that we had to agree to to make math as we know it work.

So the irony is, those crying about losing critical thinking in this thread are those who lack it because they were unable to realize that math is not simply first principles, those first principles lay on a bed of assumptions that if ever disturbed would cause havoc in our generation just as it has in previous generations when mathematical "discoveries" came to light.
 
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Valcazar

Just a bundle of fucking sunshine
Mar 27, 2014
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" Teachers may respectfully incorporate culturally specific examples that highlight First Nations, Inuit, and Métis cultures, histories, present-day realities, ways of knowing, and contributions, to infuse Indigenous knowledges and perspectives meaningfully and authentically into the mathematics program. In this way, culturally specific examples make visible the colonial contexts of present-day mathematics education, centre Indigenous students as mathematical thinkers, and strengthen learning and course content so that all students continue to learn about diverse cultures and communities in a respectful and informed way. Students’ mind, body, and spirit are nourished through connections and creativity. "
You are against the concept of examples?
 
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Gntlmn

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Oct 27, 2002
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If you talk about "woke culture" more than once you are worse than the issue you're complaining about. In other words you're woke about woke culture. You're virtue signaling signaling, etc, etc. Stop talking about it and shining a light on it.
 

Vera.Reis

Mediterranean Paramour
Jan 20, 2020
823
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Toronto
The sentence I quoted was pretty black and white (as is math)
But go ahead and try to twist it into another shape

What do YOU think she is saying?
Isolating a single sentence and taking it out of context is half the problem with these forums :)
 
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