Discreet Dolls

New York Times article POV re: both sides of the Middle-East conflict

xmontrealer

Well-known member
May 23, 2005
10,061
7,450
113
Copy and paste from a New York Times article today. For what it's worth...

"Good morning. As the fighting continues in Israel and Gaza, we lay out both sides’ cases.​
Israel vs. Hamas
The latest conflict between Israelis and Palestinians had its own specific sparks. But just as important as those sparks is a larger reality: Both sides in the conflict are led by people who are relatively uninterested in compromise.​
Many Israeli and Palestinian leaders have given up on the idea of lasting peace, such as a two-state solution in which Israel and a sovereign Palestine would coexist. They are instead pursuing versions of total victory. For Hamas, the militant group that rivals Fatah as the dominant Palestinian political party, that means the destruction of Israel. For Benjamin Netanyahu’s Israel, it means a two-class society in which Palestinians are crowded into shrinking geographic areas and lack many basic rights.​
The result is the worst fighting since 2014.​
“It would seem as if the current round of violence emerged out of a complex series of events in Jerusalem,” Vox’s Zack Beauchamp wrote. “But in reality, these events were merely triggers for escalations made almost inevitable by the way the major parties have chosen to approach the conflict.”​
I recognize that some readers are deeply versed in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, with strong views about it. And they may bristle at the above description as false equivalence. But I also know that most readers of this newsletter do not follow every turn in the Mideast and often find it bewildering. Today’s newsletter is mostly for them. It will lay out the basic arguments that the two sides are making. When you strip both down to their essence, they help to explain the situation.​
The Palestinian case
One spark for the current fighting is an attempt by Jewish settlers to evict six Palestinian families from their East Jerusalem homes, where they have lived since the 1950s. The settlers have cited a 19th-century real-estate transaction to establish their ownership. Initial Israeli court rulings upheld the evictions, and the Supreme Court has yet to rule on the case.​
It is just one example of how Israel has imposed control over places where Palestinians have lived for decades. As The Times’s Patrick Kingsley has written, “Israeli law allows Jews to reclaim ownership of land they vacated in 1948, but denies Palestinians the right to reclaim the properties they fled from in the same war.” Netanyahu and his allies believe that they can reduce the chances of a future Palestinian state by displacing Palestinians and expanding Jewish settlements. It’s a version of imperialism.​
More broadly, the East Jerusalem case is an example of how Palestinians must endure frequent humiliation. They often cannot travel without enduring checkpoints and roadblocks. They can be denied Israeli citizenship. Their economy suffers from blockades. “The Israeli regime implements laws, practices and state violence designed to cement the supremacy of one group — Jews — over another — Palestinians,” B’Tselem, a human rights group, has written.​
These inequities fuel Palestinian anger, which occasionally explodes. When it does, Israel’s military strength, financed partly by the U.S., allows it to inflict disproportionate damage. Over the past eight days, more than 200 Palestinians have died in the fighting, compared with at least 10 people in Israel.​
Refaat Alareer, a professor in Gaza, has lost his brother, and his wife, Nusayba, has lost her grandfather, brother, sister and sister’s three children, all in Israeli attacks over recent years, as he explained in a Times Opinion piece. This toll, Alareer writes, makes him and his wife “a perfectly average Palestinian couple.”​
Israel’s critics — including a growing number of American progressives — see it as using military force to perpetuate a brutally unjust society. The best hope for change, many Palestinians believe, is pressure from Israel’s most important ally, the United States.​
The Israeli case
The current conflict did not escalate into something approaching war until shortly after 6 p.m. last Monday. That’s when Hamas launched missile attacks on Jerusalem’s civilians. Hamas, which is backed by Iran, has now fired at least 3,350 missiles toward Israel.​
Many Israelis ask their critics: What would you do if a terrorist group (which Hamas is, according to the U.S. and European Union) committed to the elimination of your country fired missiles at it day after day, inducing widespread terror? “If it happened to Washington or to New York?” Netanyahu said on CBS this weekend. “You know damn well what you would do.”​
Israel’s answer is both defense and offense. It has built a defense system known as Iron Dome, which has intercepted many missiles. And Israel has launched bombing attacks on the buildings and underground tunnels where Hamas stores its missiles. The point of the bombings is to degrade the Hamas threat.​
Israel insists that it tries to minimize Palestinian civilian deaths, going so far as announcing some bombings in advance, even though Hamas fighters can then escape. But Israel says that Hamas deliberately stores missiles near civilians, knowing that the resulting casualties help it win global sympathy.​
That tactic is consistent with decades of Palestinian political dysfunction. When the United Nations proposed a two-state solution in the 1940s, Arabs rejected it, David Harris recently wrote in The Times of Israel. When Arab countries controlled Palestinian territories in the 1950s and ’60s, they could have created a nation and did not. When Israel and President Bill Clinton offered a two-state peace deal two decades ago, the Palestinians said no.​
Even many supporters of Israel who despair over Netanyahu’s leadership believe the larger problem is the Palestinians’ unwillingness to empower competent political leaders, rather than militants like Hamas. Israel can’t make a peace deal, its supporters say, until it has a partner more interested in building a prosperous society than trying to destroy Israel.​
What now?
Before this conflict started, an optimist could imagine how the next few years might bring progress. Israel and four Arab nations recently established diplomatic relations, a breakthrough that could eventually offer a framework for resolving the Palestinian question.​
But the new fighting seems to be squelching most optimism. Major street violence between Israel’s Arab and Jewish citizens has broken out for the first time in years. It remains unclear when the missile attacks and bombings will stop or if they will instead escalate into a ground war. It also remains unclear when either the Israelis or Palestinians will have political leaders whose priority is peace."​
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
61,477
6,709
113
Try again.
...
Of course you only want to listen to one side. If you had a broader perspective you would be forced to admit that Hamas rockets were the start of the round of violence in Gaza and have absolutely no legal or moral justification.
 
  • Like
Reactions: contact

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,866
22,263
113
Of course you only want to listen to one side. If you had a broader perspective you would be forced to admit that Hamas rockets were the start of the round of violence in Gaza and have absolutely no legal or moral justification.
Yes, John Oliver is so one sided and anti-semitic.
He's just like Bernie Sanders or those self hating Jews, IJVCanada.
Its all so one sided and unfair to the nuclear armed state running a 53 year old occupation through apartheid.

Just say no to apartheid
 
  • Love
Reactions: Mena Mahan

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
61,477
6,709
113
Yes, John Oliver is so one sided and anti-semitic.
...
Wow, your usual response is to make up stupid-assed shit, just to avoid discussing that the Hamas rockets that caused this current conflict are completely unjustified terrorism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: contact

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,866
22,263
113
Wow, your usual response is to make up stupid-assed shit, just to avoid discussing that the Hamas rockets that caused this current conflict are completely unjustified terrorism.
Hamas rockets did not cause the occupation.
Hamas' rockets did not cause apartheid.
Hamas rockets did not cause Israeli settler colonialism, a dirty word you can no longer say on facebook.

Those are the root causes, those are the kindling always ready to blow. All Netanyahu did was throw a bit of gas on them and stand back and watch his chances to form the next government grow.

John Oliver?
Do you still back his work or is he an anti-semite now along with Richard Falk, Bernie Sanders, Amnesty, HRW, B'tselem and Yesh Din?
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
61,477
6,709
113
Hamas rockets did not cause the occupation.
...
Right, Hamas and their predecessors refusing to accept Jewish neighbours and instead insisting on a war to get rid of the Jews is the source. But look at you still trying to blame Netanyahu for Hamas firing rockets at Jerusalem.


And WTF are you trying to prove with John Oliver. I can disagree with people without calling them racists. if John Oliver was like you spending hours every day pushing propaganda against Israel while trying to justify Hamas terrorism. I sure would question his motivations though.

p.s. Just a reminder, Amnesty, HRW, and B'Tselem all condemn Hamas rockets as war crimes/terrorism.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,866
22,263
113
p.s. Just a reminder, Amnesty, HRW, and B'Tselem all condemn Hamas rockets as war crimes/terrorism.
Yes, just as they also condemn Israeli rockets as war crimes/terrorism and Israeli apartheid.
Lets both support them bringing that evidence on both sides to the ICC.
 

xmontrealer

Well-known member
May 23, 2005
10,061
7,450
113
The New York Times article i posted above seems worthy of some belief, especially regarding the current leaders on both sides having little or no desire to achieve a peaceful and long-lasting 2 state solution.

I would like to make a significant donation to provide some assistance to the innocent Palestinian children who have been severely affected by the hostilities. So far my research has only found the PCRF, the Palestine Children's Relief Fund, based in the US. I will make a donation to them assuming the money does not go to Hamas. Any thoughts on the suitability of the PCRF for that cause, or an equivalent Canadian charity?

BTW Canadians can get Canadian tax deductions for donations made to US charities, providing you have US income, and the donation does not exceed 75% of that US net income as reported on your Canadian income tax return.
 
Last edited:

Leimonis

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2020
9,703
9,444
113
John Oliver?
Do you still back his work or is he an anti-semite now along with Richard Falk, Bernie Sanders, Amnesty, HRW, B'tselem and Yesh Din?
Haaretz: Israeli Comedian Slams John Oliver Over 'Unfair, Unjust and Simplistic' Gaza Monologue
 

basketcase

Well-known member
Dec 29, 2005
61,477
6,709
113
Yes, just as they also condemn Israeli rockets as war crimes/terrorism and Israeli apartheid.
...
So why do you quote them while continuing to argue in favour of Hamas' right to fire these rockets?

But hey, you already admitted you think there's no reason to listen to other perspectives.

Lets both support them bringing that evidence on both sides to the ICC.
Does this mean you are going to withhold your condemnations of Israel until a verdict the way you do for Hamas?
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,866
22,263
113
So why do you quote them while continuing to argue in favour of Hamas' right to fire these rockets?

But hey, you already admitted you think there's no reason to listen to other perspectives.


Does this mean you are going to withhold your condemnations of Israel until a verdict the way you do for Hamas?
Why do you keep lying about what I say when its right in front of you?
Charge Hamas' for their rockets and Israel for their missiles, bombs, blockade, occupation and apartheid.
Support holding both sides to all charges raised from human rights reports.

Including this one.

 
Toronto Escorts