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The election litigation thread

Frankfooter

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There are many people in the US whose families have voted GOP for 100 years. They don't follow CNN or Fox News. They just go and vote GOP every couple of years and then go home and make dinner. My sister lives in MO and my niece's in laws just automatically vote GOP. They grasp onto the few items where Trump can be presented as a success and use it to explain that he's a good leader - i.e. the Israel - Egypt deal. The block out or minimize all his graft and fuck ups.

There are parts of the country where it is considered treason to vote Dem - i.e OK, WY, KY, AB. You're like those arrogant, fake, pervert, commie folks in NYC or LA. Or you're a Yankee who hates the South.

The current GOP appeals to less educated, less urban whites in the South and farm states. So you're already pitching at folks who follow politics less closely than urban professionals.

The US is in love with its own mythology - that of self-starting, free enterprise loving, rugged individualists and anything that taints that image is unAmerican. So it's easy to pitch that the Dems are unAmerican when they suggest state health care.

The GOP has cut a deal with the Evangelicals and their followers live in a total alternate reality fuck-world.

None of this explains Dutch or Oracle. Possibly a skilled brain pathologist can dissect them post mortem and publish a ground-breaking paper in the medical journal.
I think you underestimate the changes that the US, and the world, have undergone.
MSM or media in general is less important to most Americans now vs social media.

Likely we'll have a bigger sense of how far its changed after we see what happens on Jan 6 in Washington.
 

Perry Mason

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In whichever way you explain it, the sad reality is that the USA is on the verge of collapse... the Spirit of '76, the political philosophy of the Founding Fathers, the foundation of the nation -- United We Stand, e pluribus unum -- has disintegrated tremendously and rapidly over the past 4 years...

Brilliant legacy, Donald... what a stable genius you are... what a deal from the Master of the Deal!

The beginning of the end could be as soon as Wednesday... whether or not Biden is declared president...

Perry
 
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Frankfooter

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In whichever way you explain it, the sad reality is that the USA is on the verge of collapse... the Spirit of '76, the political philosophy of the Founding Fathers -- United We Stand -- has disintegrated tremendously and rapidly over the past 4 years...

Brilliant legacy, Donald... what a stable genious you are... what a deal from the Master of the Deal!

The beginning of the end could be as soon as Wednesday... whether or not Biden is declared president...

Perry
yup.
 

toguy5252

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yup.
This is the result of electing a fraud who invented a persona and then sold it to the dumbest most gullible cohort on the planet.

Trump 'diehards' threatening to 'kill all the D.C. traitors' on day of the president's rally: report
 
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Frankfooter

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SchlongConery

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I keep hearnig the word "treason".

I think "Sedition" is a more appropriate charge


Sedition

Created by FindLaw's team of legal writers and editors | Last updated February 20, 2019


Suppose that over the course of a few months, a small band of armed militants has coordinated strategies to distribute firearms and take over the nation's capital by force through a website on the clandestine "deep web." All indications show that the group is dead serious in its intentions, but they're thwarted by an FBI investigation that leads to arrests. While sharing information and discussing ideas -- even distasteful ones -- is generally protected as free speech, the FBI believes this crosses the line. The alleged ringleaders of the plot are charged with "seditious conspiracy" (simply referred to as "sedition"), a federal crime related to treason and other anti-government offenses.

Sedition is a serious felony punishable by fines and up to 20 years in prison and it refers to the act of inciting revolt or violence against a lawful authority with the goal of destroying or overthrowing it. The following provides an overview of this particular crime against the government, with historical references.

Seditious Conspiracy and Federal Law: The Basics

The federal law against seditious conspiracy can be found in Title 18 of the U.S. Code (which includes treason, rebellion, and similar offenses), specifically 18 U.S.C. § 2384. According to the statutory definition of sedition, it is a crime for two or more people within the jurisdiction of the United States:

  • To conspire to overthrow or destroy by force the government of the United States or to level war against them;
  • To oppose by force the authority of the United States government; to prevent, hinder, or delay by force the execution of any law of the United States; or
  • To take, seize, or possess by force any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof.
Free Speech, Sedition, and Treason

In order to get a conviction for seditious conspiracy, the government must prove that the defendant in fact conspired to use force. Simply advocating for the use of force is not the same thing and in most cases is protected as free speech under the First Amendment. For example, two or more people who give public speeches suggesting the need for a total revolution "by any means necessary" have not necessarily conspired to overthrow the government. Rather, they're just sharing their opinions, however unsavory. But actively planning such an action (distributing guns, working out the logistics of an attack, actively opposing lawful authority, etc.) could be considered a seditious conspiracy.

Ultimately, the goal is to prevent threats against the United States while protecting individuals' First Amendment rights, which isn't always such a clear distinction.

Sedition differs from treason (defined in Article III of the U.S. Constitution) in a fundamental way. While seditious conspiracy is generally defined as conduct or language inciting rebellion against the authority of a state, treason is the more-serious offense of actively levying war against the United States or giving aid to its enemies. Another way of looking at it is that seditious conspiracy often occurs before an act of treason.

Seditious Conspiracy: Historical Examples

Many of the more high-profile seditious conspiracy cases won by the U.S. government involve Puerto Rican nationalists plotting to overthrow the U.S. and assert their independence. The first was Pedro Albizu Campos, who (along with nine accomplices) was convicted of sedition in 1937 and jailed for 10 years for attempting to overthrow the government. He and others had been active members of the Nationalist Party, which (according the U.S. prosecutors) was aimed at independence through force. Other, similar cases involving Puerto Rican nationalists followed.

More recently, in 2010, nine members of a militia group called "the Hutaree" spanning Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana were charged with seditious conspiracy on suspicion of planning an armed conflict against federal, state, and local law enforcement. They were acquitted by a judge in 2012, however, due to insufficient evidence.
 
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Perry Mason

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The most disgusting part of what I sense is happening in the USA, is how well the narrative of Trump and the Republican Party mirrors the narrative of Hitler and the Nazi Party...

Please note I am not comparing Trump as a person to Hitler as a person... except to the extent that both appear to be mentally deranged... just marveling how true it is that history repeats itself...

Perry
 
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mandrill

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The most disgusting part of what I sense is happening in the USA, is how well the narrative of Trump and the Republican Party mirrors the narrative of Hitler and the Nazi Party...

Please note I am not comparing Trump as a person to Hitler as a person... except to the extent that both show signs of mental derangement... just marveling how true it is that history repeats itself...

Perry
It's very strange. I got my undergrad in Modern European History and the accepted narrative about Hitler's rise was that it took a combination of anger at the Versailles Treaty, economic collapse, political inexperience and incompetence by the Weimar Republic to produce a "once in a millenium" swing to absolutism. But the US seems to be making the same journey for no apparent logical reason.
 
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Frankfooter

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It's very strange. I got my undergrad in Modern European History and the accepted narrative about Hitler's rise was that it took a combination of anger at the Versailles Treaty, economic collapse, political inexperience and incompetence by the Weimar Republic to produce a "once in a millenium" swing to absolutism. But the US seems to be making the same journey for no apparent logical reason.
There is a logical reason, but I don't think you accept it as a real possibility yet.
Hitler definitely rode on anger but it was also his use of propaganda that kept him in power.
That form of propaganda is now being run by the multiple AI's that are designed to keep people engaged with social media and do so by offering them more and more extreme links to click on.
Though that sentence sounds almost crazy enough on its own to sound like a conspiracy theory, its really the only explanation to the two realities.

Again, the Social Dilemma is worth watching, its largely interviews with the people who designed facebook, twitter and instagram but left silicon valley when they understood what its doing.

We've known this for a few years, but nobody knows what to do about it.
 

squeezer

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Dumbasses are now calling for a civil war. You have Trumpfart riling the troops for a protest during the hearings. They are really adamant of making the US a shithole country, Trump doesn't give a rat's ass about the senate election and guaranteed he will use the rally tomorrow to spout off the election fraud bullshit. He probably prefers the two repugs loose because this way it fits into his mail in is a rigged system.
 

mandrill

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There is a logical reason, but I don't think you accept it as a real possibility yet.
Hitler definitely rode on anger but it was also his use of propaganda that kept him in power.
That form of propaganda is now being run by the multiple AI's that are designed to keep people engaged with social media and do so by offering them more and more extreme links to click on.
Though that sentence sounds almost crazy enough on its own to sound like a conspiracy theory, its really the only explanation to the two realities.

Again, the Social Dilemma is worth watching, its largely interviews with the people who designed facebook, twitter and instagram but left silicon valley when they understood what its doing.

We've known this for a few years, but nobody knows what to do about it.
I agree with this. My law partner is absolutely addicted to Ben Shapiro and his buddies and each time I come into the office, he tries to engage me. Since I don't want to have to take 20 minutes and fact check the BS and refute it, I just wave him off now. But it's a process. He's a super bright guy, but needs to feel superior.

By "sharing insights" with My Law Partner, the Righties echo chamber involves him, makes him feel smart, makes him feel angry and embittered at the "lefties" and makes him check the same shitty pages again in a couple of hours to get his next hit. Same thing with a lot of the guys on this board. They have an addiction that should be identified and diagnosed and treated.
 

mandrill

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Dumbasses are now calling for a civil war. You have Trumpfart riling the troops for a protest during the hearings. They are really adamant of making the US a shithole country, Trump doesn't give a rat's ass about the senate election and guaranteed he will use the rally tomorrow to spout off the election fraud bullshit. He probably prefers the two repugs loose because this way it fits into his mail in is a rigged system.
I hope they create chaos and piss off every non-GOP citizen in the USA, so that this shit is remembered at election time for the next 50 years and the GOP is kicked out of power and kept out of power and destroyed as a party.
 
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kherg007

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I hope they create chaos and piss off every non-GOP citizen in the USA, so that this shit is remembered at election time for the next 50 years and the GOP is kicked out of power and kept out of power and destroyed as a party.
In a newsworld where people agree on facts - like usa post watergate - they would be swept out. Thus i so hope you're right. I fear the right wing infrastructure though, and the fact the repubs have a wide ranging propoganda network will make it difficult to give them the thorough shellacking they deserve. One bright spot is that the Dominion voting machine company is going to sue all of them. I hope they go jugular and don't do the settle out of court with no admission shit. Take it to a jury and take a gigantic cut of all their assets. Do the same to rush, Tucker, Laura, Sean, etc etc.
 
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Frankfooter

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I agree with this. My law partner is absolutely addicted to Ben Shapiro and his buddies and each time I come into the office, he tries to engage me. Since I don't want to have to take 20 minutes and fact check the BS and refute it, I just wave him off now. But it's a process. He's a super bright guy, but needs to feel superior.

By "sharing insights" with My Law Partner, the Righties echo chamber involves him, makes him feel smart, makes him feel angry and embittered at the "lefties" and makes him check the same shitty pages again in a couple of hours to get his next hit. Same thing with a lot of the guys on this board. They have an addiction that should be identified and diagnosed and treated.
Its actually one of the reasons I post on this board more often than on social media.
My FB and instagram are just my compatriots and nary a contrarian shows their face without being flamed out.
Twitter can lead you to different views more often, but still my feed is filled with posts of similar attitudes to mine.
Debating with the likes of dutch oven, ridiculous as he is, and others here at least keep me thinking and checking sources.
 

Frankfooter

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The Orange Smalldick recorded in a bizarre attempt to intimidate the GA secretary-of-state into changing the result of the GA vote. Twitter already calling for criminal proceedings.
Wow, the crazy is in full swing.
What he asked for isn't illegal, its more of his mob tactics. He didn't say 'cheat the numbers' he says 'the numbers are wrong, fix them'. Even if the effect is the same.
So can you charge him with anything for that call?

Meanwhile more repugs are saying they can still overturn the election.

 
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