Why It Matters That Seth Rogen Spoke Out Against Israel

[Dcoat]

I totally understand basketcase's attempt to use the qualifier 'fled' as whether or not any person qualifies for what the world understands to be the basic human right of return.
But since its just basketcase attempting to rationalize his own racist qualifiers and claim that 98% of Palestinians therefore have forfeited their universal human rights I'm ignoring it.
Because its a garbage claim, the same sort of shite that racists always use to rationalize extremely racist goals.
Basketcase's clear goal is to justify refusing to honour Palestinians universal basic human rights.

Why don't you try again and tell me why you think he's right.

Prior to the establishment of the Jewish state, the Arabs left as a result of a number things. Antisemitism, which encouraged them to leave so as not be ruled by Jews. A fear of not being adequately defended by their own governments and alies in the event some Arabs elected to fight against the UN declaration. The results of fighting had become apparent when some extremist Israeli militants defeated and killed hundreds of Arabs in the town of Deir Yassin. The battle intended to remove the Arab blockade, but the killings were condemned by Israeli and Jewish leaders worldwide.

You will know that Israel welcomes peaceful Arabs, and to this day does not block them from serving in the government, as civil servants nor as elected representatives. There is no reciprocity in any Arab country, quite to the contrary, although that may be changing since Trump became president.

 

[WyattEarp]

And ignores that half of Israeli Jews are descended from Jews that lived in the Middle East under the Ottomans and chased/fled from their homes, just like many Palestinians.

I'm not as versed on the modern history of the region, but I believe there was a much larger Christian population in the Middle East. They haven't fared well under Muslim rule. I know some Palestinian Christians who emigrated. While they aren't thrilled with Israel, they seem to be less enthralled with Palestinian Muslims.

Anyways, Middle East Christians seem to be an afterthought in the discussion.

 

[Dcoat]

I'm not as versed on the modern history of the region, but I believe there was a much larger Christian population in the Middle East. They haven't fared well under Muslim rule. I know some Palestinian Christians who emigrated. While they aren't thrilled with Israel, they seem to be less enthralled with Palestinian Muslims.

Anyways, Middle East Christians seem to be an afterthought in the discussion.

Christians are not always welcome in many Arab states, they are welcome in Israel although politics, not human rights may be problematic for some. But they are not demanding they be given homes, land and citizenship in a country they've personally never lived in. I think thats why Christians aren't included in this thread.

 

[Frankfooter]

Prior to the establishment of the Jewish state

You mean Partition, which was supposed to establish two states, Palestine and Israel?
Ignoring that fact makes the rest of your post already sound like its filtered through your take.

, the Arabs left as a result of a number things. Antisemitism, which encouraged them to leave so as not be ruled by Jews.

Sorry, but those are your own personal views and they are very coloured by your own stereotyping and not reality.

A fear of not being adequately defended by their own governments and alies in the event some Arabs elected to fight against the UN declaration.

Partition was problematic, it didn't award land based on the populations sizes that were there, giving more and the better land to the Jewish minority. On top of that it was the world deciding to repay for the evils of Hitler but for some reason deciding that the Palestinians should pay that debt. Its not surprising that they weren't excited at the idea of giving up the country they were promised by the Brits.

The results of fighting had become apparent when some extremist Israeli militants defeated and killed hundreds of Arabs in the town of Deir Yassin. The battle intended to remove the Arab blockade, but the killings were condemned by Israeli and Jewish leaders worldwide.

This I agree with, Jewish terrorism did drive out Palestinians.

Really, I'm not interested in arguing the history, other than pointing out how basketcase will argue that the history of Black rights in American is biased then spout even more biased history in these threads.
Whatever happened, both sides are there now and the goal should be to figure out how to get them all to live in peace.

That's why I just push for equal rights for Palestinians, since Israel won't end the occupation and give Palestine back to the Palestinians.
The two state solution would have been great but now there are too many 'facts on the ground' and the threat of annexation, which seems to be Israel's goals, is really just apartheid.

 

[basketcase]

So you now say that all 5 million Palestinians should not only be allowed back but have their return trips paid by Israel and then be granted full citizenship.

Law of Return - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Great.
For once we agree.

Not surprised you chose to ignore the varied list of historical analysis I gave you and blindly parrot something you saw online to try and change the topic.

I gave you three different fair options. To summarize:
a) all refugees and refugees and their descendants from the conflict (Jewish refugees from Arab lands and Arab refugees from israel) go back to their ancestral homes.
b) all refugees and refugees and their descendants from the conflict (Jewish refugees from Arab lands and Arab refugees from israel) get compensation from their former homes and consider the issue solved
c) the different sides accept the population transfers were a done deal and move on.

Sadly you keep claiming you want fairness but refuse to give both sides equal treatment.

 

[basketcase]

I totally understand basketcase's attempt to use the qualifier 'fled' ...

Because that's what historians, including Palestinian ones describe as happening for the vast majority of Arab refugees just like the significant majority of Arab Jews fled persecution but weren't marched out at gunpoint.

 

[basketcase]

I'm not as versed on the modern history of the region, but I believe there was a much larger Christian population in the Middle East. They haven't fared well under Muslim rule. I know some Palestinian Christians who emigrated. While they aren't thrilled with Israel, they seem to be less enthralled with Palestinian Muslims.

Anyways, Middle East Christians seem to be an afterthought in the discussion.

It's varied. Some countries have a significant Christian minority and therefore Christians have some sway. Lebanon has a significant Christian population and their laws mandate the roles they play in government including the President (Lebanon voting is based on your religion). Syria has (had?) a large Christian population but it's a repressive regime no matter who you are. In general though, many of the Arab states don't focus on minority rights (or rights at all) so being a minority Christian isn't always a good thing (especially after Saudi has spent so much money pushing their strict version of Islam).

And I wouldn't say Christians are an afterthought. Other than being a convenient target for Islamists, they are seen as just part of the scenery.

 

[basketcase]

You mean Partition, which was supposed to establish two states, Palestine and Israel?
...

Which was completely rejected by the Arab and Palestinian leadership (and still is my much of them).

Jordan and Egypt were the ones who stole the Palestinian state but you seem never to mention that fact.

Really, I'm not interested in arguing the history,

That is quite obvious.

And it's an obvious cop-out since you just got schooled. Seriously, take the time to read the books I suggested. They won't likely change your deeply entrenched opinion but at least you'll have some background information on the conflict.

That's why I just push for equal rights for Palestinians

Except as proven in the discussion of refugees, you only want rights for one side.

And then there's that whole issue that Palestinians HATE the idea that you and your racist elitism want to force them into.

 

[Frankfooter]

Because that's what historians, including Palestinian ones describe as happening for the vast majority of Arab refugees just like the significant majority of Arab Jews fled persecution but weren't marched out at gunpoint.

Right, so when Jews 'fled' persecution you think they deserve the Right of Return.
When Palestinians 'fled' Jewish terrorists and persecution you think they went voluntarily and don't deserve their human rights.

Typical, you just rationalize racist policies continually, don't you?

 

[Frankfooter]

Not surprised you chose to ignore the varied list of historical analysis I gave you and blindly parrot something you saw online to try and change the topic.

I gave you three different fair options. To summarize:
a) all refugees and refugees and their descendants from the conflict (Jewish refugees from Arab lands and Arab refugees from israel/Palestine {or their ancestral homes}) go back to their ancestral homes.
b) all refugees and refugees and their descendants from the conflict (Jewish refugees from Arab lands and Arab refugees from israel/Palestine {or their ancestral homes}) get compensation from their former homes and consider the issue solved
c) the different sides accept the population transfers were a done deal and move on.

Sadly you keep claiming you want fairness but refuse to give both sides equal treatment.

a) and b) contained an attempted qualifier that you were going to try to use to argue that Palestinians don't deserve the same human rights as Jews. Again.
c) is a war crime according to the Geneva Conventions.
Are you a budding war criminal, or are you a defender of human rights here?

That leaves us with a) and b), corrected, which therefore means:

You now say that all 5 million Palestinians should not only be allowed back but have their return trips paid by Israel and then be granted full citizenship.
Unless you also think that only Jewish refugees from the conflict, as you stated, deserve the right of return, in which case you would argue the following law is unjust.
Unless you think Israel is willing to settle for the loss of their ancestral homes and 50 years of living in refugee camps waiting for Israel.

Law of Return - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Go ahead, I fully expect you to find fault with this argument and once again try to argue that Jews have more rights than Palestinians and therefore don't deserve to return.

Me, I say let them all live there and just give Palestinians equal rights.
Just like we did with the indigenous here and just like the BLM is still arguing for here and in the US.

 

[Insidious Von]

It depends on how the Orthodox parties that control the Knesset interpret The Old Testament. According to the Book of Samuel, which deals with the reigns of Saul and David, Eretz Israel means South Lebanon, Damascus and Amman as well. From later books the Kingdom of Israel was a bloody mess, constantly fighting among themselves. They only united when an outside force threatened their religion. Which happened when the Seleucid Greeks banned Judaism, they sent emissaries to Rome for help.

The war to establish a Jewish homeland was dirty. These days no one talks about the Siege of Jaffa, which was razed to the ground and Tel Aviv built in it's place. Nor how Yitzakh Shamir's paramilitary outfit killed Arabs indiscriminately. Arabs had their fare share of atrocities as well but they were eventually outgunned. That's probably why the Palestinians are presently so obdurate.

 

[basketcase]

Right, so when Jews 'fled' persecution you think they deserve the Right of Return.
When Palestinians 'fled' Jewish terrorists and persecution you think they went voluntarily and don't deserve their human rights.

Typical, you just rationalize racist policies continually, don't you?

So as usual you refuse to back up your bullshit claims about wanting equal treatment and instead invent your own reality.

I gave you three options for what I see as fair treatment for refugees from the Arab-Israeli conflict and I gave you what I consider a pragmatic solution. Of course you refuse to comment on the topic because you know that you can't without admitting your one-sided zealotry.


Sadly you object to Arabs who were directly engaged in fighting becoming refugees but are absolutely silent about anti-Jewish persecution forcing Arab Jews from their ancestral homes despite having absolutely nothing to do with the conflict.

 

[basketcase]

a) and b) contained an attempted qualifier that you were going to try to use to argue that Palestinians don't deserve the same human rights as Jews. Again.
c) is a war crime according to the Geneva Conventions.
Are you a budding war criminal, or are you a defender of human rights here?

That leaves us with a) and b), corrected, which therefore means:

You now say that all 5 million Palestinians should not only be allowed back but have their return trips paid by Israel and then be granted full citizenship.
Unless you also think that only Jewish refugees from the conflict, as you stated, deserve the right of return, in which case you would argue the following law is unjust.
Unless you think Israel is willing to settle for the loss of their ancestral homes and 50 years of living in refugee camps waiting for Israel.

Law of Return - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Go ahead, I fully expect you to find fault with this argument and once again try to argue that Jews have more rights than Palestinians and therefore don't deserve to return.

Me, I say let them all live there and just give Palestinians equal rights.
Just like we did with the indigenous here and just like the BLM is still arguing for here and in the US.

This is quite the word salad, all to avoid discussing actual equal treatment. It's just like when you quote Amnesty to criticize Israel but argue against them when they condemn Hamas.

And sorry but the only difference between refugees from the attempted Partition of Palestine and the Partition of India is that everyone except for the Arab states worked to integrate refugees instead of locking them in camps for generations. Why do you think Palestinian refugees deserve treatment that applies to no other refugee group in the world including Jewish refugees from the same conflict?
(actually that's not quite true, Tibetan refugees in India and Nepal are often denied full rights in the countries of their birth as well but they don't have a dedicated UN organization perpetuating it)

p.s. Funny that you still pretend Canada has solved the issues with our First Nations.

 

[basketcase]

p.s. Rogan has walked back some of his statements saying his comedic take didn't represent the nuance of his opinion and he supports Israel existing.

“I don’t want Jews to think I don’t want Israel to exist and I understand how they could have been led to think that,” the actor and comedian told Haaretz reporter Allison Kaplan Sommer in a story published Monday.

“I was just not given a full picture of the situation and I understand it’s a wildly complex picture to give a child,” he said, adding that he knows Jewish parents who “are taking it on themselves to try to paint a more complete picture of how complex a situation it is.”

The new interview and ongoing conversation come nearly a week after Rogen discussed Israel on Marc Maron’s popular “WTF” podcast, and the pair’s comments sparked an outcry among many Israel supporters. Rogen said he was “fed a huge amount of lies about Israel” as a child in Vancouver and that Israel’s organizing principle – grouping Jews together in one state – “doesn’t make sense.”

He clarified to Kaplan Sommer that the principle was “a joke I’ve heard Israelis make.” He also said that comedy inherently carries the risk of being perceived as offensive.

“If you take any comedic monologue and treat it as though it is not based in humor, there’s probably some very questionable thoughts in there,” Rogen said

Seth Rogen accuses Isaac Herzog of 'misrepresenting' comments on Israel

Seth Rogen made it "clear [...] that what was missing in the published interview was what he did not say: How important Israel is to him. And that, of course, Israel must exist."

www.jpost.com

 

[Frankfooter]

So as usual you refuse to back up your bullshit claims about wanting equal treatment and instead invent your own reality.

I gave you three options for what I see as fair treatment for refugees from the Arab-Israeli conflict and I gave you what I consider a pragmatic solution. Of course you refuse to comment on the topic because you know that you can't without admitting your one-sided zealotry.

I fixed your statement so that it would give equal rights to both sides and now you are trying to back away from your own statement.
So much for your pretend defender of human rights, anti-racist facade on this board.
You're just another zailbetter, now you won't even stand by what you said.

And sorry but the only difference between refugees from the attempted Partition of Palestine and the Partition of India is that everyone except for the Arab states worked to integrate refugees instead of locking them in camps for generations.

You blame the Arab states for Israel's actions?
Typical, but really that's a ridiculous argument.

Israel is responsible for creating those 5 million Palestinian refugees and Israel has to fix the problem.
The Arab states should get restitution for hosting 5 million Palestinian refugees on Israel's behalf.

as you said:

a) all refugees and refugees and their descendants from the conflict (Jewish refugees from Arab lands and Arab refugees from israel/Palestine {or their ancestral homes}) go back to their ancestral homes.
b) all refugees and refugees and their descendants from the conflict (Jewish refugees from Arab lands and Arab refugees from israel/Palestine {or their ancestral homes}) get compensation from their former homes and consider the issue solved

Those ancestral homes are in Israel/Palestine.
Israel must honour their universal Right of Return.
As you said.

 

[basketcase]

I fixed your statement...

And once again you resort to faking people's quotes instead of daring to comment on actual fairness. You transparently refuse to see Jewish refugees as equal to Palestinian refugees and you refuse to hold the Arab states accountable for locking them in camps for generations.

It is also transparent that you blame Israel but refuse to comment about the Arab/Palestinian leadership who chose to launch a war instead of accepting Partition. Arab states and Palestinian leadership played a massive role in creating refugees and deserve blame for locking them up as political pawns.

 

[basketcase]

...

Those ancestral homes are in Israel/Palestine.
Israel must honour their universal Right of Return.
As you said.

So why don't you hold Arab states to similar accountability for the indigenous Jews they forced out? Don't worry about answering because we both know the answer is your fanatical hatred.

Fraudfooter strikes again.

 

[Frankfooter]

And once again you resort to faking people's quotes instead of daring to comment on actual fairness. You transparently refuse to see Jewish refugees as equal to Palestinian refugees and you refuse to hold the Arab states accountable for locking them in camps for generations.

I see, so when your statement is corrected so that it applies equally to Palestinians and Jewish refugees you immediately disowned it.
You only supported a statement that intentionally tried to disqualify Palestinians from the Right of Return and then call me unfair.
Typical.

All that does is confirm your racism.
You refuse to state that Palestinians and Jews should have the same rights.

You're still justifying apartheid and defending apartheid treatment.

White House still mulling annexation, which could happen this month – source
After Netanyahu says application of sovereignty depends on US, ToI told ‘more discussions are required’ about a ‘package’ to sweeten pill for Palestinians

 

[Frankfooter]

So why don't you hold Arab states to similar accountability for the indigenous Jews they forced out? Don't worry about answering because we both know the answer is your fanatical hatred.

Sure, here you go:

I fully support the Right of Return for all Jewish refugees in to all Arab states where they were forced out or terrorized into leaving.
Just as I fully support the Right of Return for all Jewish and Palestinians to Israel/Palestine where they were forced out or terrorized into leaving.

Now, as the racist you are, you are unable to support that statement, aren't you?
You will still only ever support Jewish refugees Right of Return and never Palestinians.



Emboldened by promises of annexation, Israeli settler attacks soared in July
According to data gathered by Mondoweiss, there were at least 25 reported incidents of Israeli settler violence against Palestinians since the unofficial July 1st deadline to annex the West Bank passed.

 

[basketcase]

I see, so when your statement is corrected so that it applies equally to Palestinians and Jewish refugees you immediately disowned it.
...

You imagine the strangest things. My statements stands as does your fanatical need to blame only Israel. Why do you only demand one group of refugees get considered and why do you refuse to hold Arabs states and Palestinian leaders accountable for their choices and actions?