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Sweden says its coronavirus approach has worked. The numbers show a different story

doggystyle99

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May 23, 2010
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The Swedish failure & stark contrast from Finland, Denmark and Norway

Among Nordic countries -- which share similar cultural, geographical and sociological attributes -- the contrast with Sweden is great. Finland declared a state of emergency, closed schools and banned gatherings of more than 10 people on March 16, restricted travel to and from its Uusimaa region on March 28 and closed restaurants, cafes and bars on April 1.

Denmark announced widespread closures on March 11 and was among the first in Europe to close borders, shops, schools and restaurants, and to ban large gatherings. Norway began introducing travel restrictions in mid-March and has since closed schools and daycare centers, banned the use of vacation properties, canceled events and closed businesses such as hair and beauty salons.

The death rate in Sweden has now risen significantly higher than many other countries in Europe, reaching more than 21 per 100,000 people, according to figures from Johns Hopkins University, controlled for population.

By contrast, Denmark has recorded more than seven deaths per 100,000 people, and both Norway and Finland less than four.


Sweden has registered 18,640 coronavirus cases and 2,194 deaths among its population of 10.3 million people.

Denmark has had 8,773 cases and 422 deaths in a population of 5.8 million, Norway 7,449 cases and 202 deaths among its 5.4 million people, and Finland 4,576 cases and 190 deaths in its population of 5.5 million.


Denmark and Norway are now beginning to ease their lockdowns, with children returning to school in the past 10 days, in smaller classes with markers to help keep them two meters apart. Salons and other businesses with one-to-one contact will reopen in Norway from Monday. Finland has extended its restrictions until May 13.

Further afield the Czech Republic, which has a similar-sized population -- 10.7 million -- to Sweden, has recorded 7,404 cases and 221 deaths -- around two deaths per 100,000 people. It took a markedly different approach to the pandemic by shutting schools, closing restaurants and bars and most stores, restricting travel and ordering mandatory quarantines for travelers from at-risk regions in early March. It has also made it compulsory for people to wear face masks in public.

Sweden has not had as many deaths as Italy or Spain, which have recorded around 44 and 49 deaths per 100,000 people respectively, or even the UK, where there have been more than 31 deaths per 100,000 of the population. But there are various complex differences between Sweden and these countries that make direct comparisons harder, such as Italy having an older population, more smokers, and a larger number of close-knit multigenerational households.

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/worl...story/ar-BB13k1a6?li=AAggNb9&ocid=mailsignout
 

Smallcock

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Jun 5, 2009
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The author doesn't understand his topic and gives it a very superficial treatment.

TERB members have already delved into this in greater detail.

Conclusion: Too early to tell but in no way can Sweden's approach be considered a failure.
 

doggystyle99

Well-known member
May 23, 2010
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The author doesn't understand his topic and gives it a very superficial treatment.

TERB members have already delved into this in greater detail.

Conclusion: Too early to tell but in no way can Sweden's approach be considered a failure.
You simply didn't read the article and premarturely posted as usual. Had you read the article you would have seen the author touches on that point quite a few times further down the article.
The author fully understands the subject and the article touches on so many points that some have been posting about including myself, they are facts and data.

Facts are without isolation and quarantines the Coronavirus can not be fought unless you have strict health, tracing and preventive measures in place.
Data is Sweden is at 80% capacity of their healthcare system and they are extremely close to overburderning the system which is a very dangerous game to play.
Facts are even though they have advised of isolation for the elderly and the care homes they have a significant number of deaths in these categories which on it's own wasn't enough and they had ban home care visits as of April 1st.

Swedish scientists are not happy with the route their government has took.

"On March 28, a petition signed by 2,000 Swedish researchers, including Carl-Henrik Heldin, chairman of the Nobel Foundation, called for the nation's government to "immediately take steps to comply with the World Health Organization's (WHO) recommendations."

The scientists added: "The measures should aim to severely limit contact between people in society and to greatly increase the capacity to test people for Covid-19 infection."

"These measures must be in place as soon as possible, as is currently the case in our European neighboring countries," they wrote. "Our country should not be an exception to the work to curb the pandemic."

The petition said that trying to "create a herd immunity, in the same way that occurs during an influenza epidemic, has low scientific support."

Swedish authorities have denied having a strategy to create herd immunity, one the UK government was rumored to be working towards earlier on in the pandemic -- leading to widespread criticism -- before it enforced a strict lockdown."
 

G.D. Gentleman

Spin Spin Sugar...
Jun 24, 2019
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Thank you for the article.

3 simple points. 2 from the article, and yes I did read it.

1. - Quoted from the article "At least 50% of our death toll is within the elderly homes and we have a hard time understanding how a lockdown would stop the introduction of the disease into the elderly homes."

2. - Quoted from the article "Whether Sweden's Covid-19 strategy has succeeded or failed may not be clear for months to come, but as countries across the globe count their dead and wonder whether they could have done more to halt the spread of the virus, the world will be watching."

3. from your statement - Data is Sweden is at 80% capacity of their healthcare system and they are extremely close to overburderning the system which is a very dangerous game to play.
3a - The article confirmed that Sweden has always had 'at least' 20% of their intensive care beds which indicates a 'peek' amount of load on the system, a spike to 80% capacity.
3b - Many states/countries that have been through lockdown and now attempting to enter Phase II re-opening of their economies are targeting 70% of their healthcare capacity as an acceptable level to operate with while re-opened.

Conclusion:
Your thread here, like all your other posts, is attempting to draw a conclusion in these comparisons. Even the article admits (point #2 above) that it won't be clear for months to come if Sweden has actually been a success or failure, in comparison to other countries.

In 3-9 months the data will be much more clear. We will each be able to compare the deaths per 100,000 properly in the future, after other countries have experienced their own Phase II economy re-openings and better assess a value of success or failure.

I am simply one of the multiple members here who will continue to call out your attempt to draw a conclusion and measurement about Sweden when it is clearly obvious to everyone except you that is much, much too soon to do so.
 

doggystyle99

Well-known member
May 23, 2010
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Thank you for the article.

3 simple points. 2 from the article, and yes I did read it.

1. - Quoted from the article "At least 50% of our death toll is within the elderly homes and we have a hard time understanding how a lockdown would stop the introduction of the disease into the elderly homes."

2. - Quoted from the article "Whether Sweden's Covid-19 strategy has succeeded or failed may not be clear for months to come, but as countries across the globe count their dead and wonder whether they could have done more to halt the spread of the virus, the world will be watching."

3. from your statement - Data is Sweden is at 80% capacity of their healthcare system and they are extremely close to overburderning the system which is a very dangerous game to play.
3a - The article confirmed that Sweden has always had 'at least' 20% of their intensive care beds which indicates a 'peek' amount of load on the system, a spike to 80% capacity.
3b - Many states/countries that have been through lockdown and now attempting to enter Phase II re-opening of their economies are targeting 70% of their healthcare capacity as an acceptable level to operate with while re-opened.

Conclusion:
Your thread here, like all your other posts, is attempting to draw a conclusion in these comparisons. Even the article admits (point #2 above) that it won't be clear for months to come if Sweden has actually been a success or failure, in comparison to other countries.

In 3-9 months the data will be much more clear. We will each be able to compare the deaths per 100,000 properly in the future, after other countries have experienced their own Phase II economy re-openings and better assess a value of success or failure.

I am simply one of the multiple members here who will continue to call out your attempt to draw a conclusion and measurement about Sweden when it is clearly obvious to everyone except you that is much, much too soon to do so.
In my posts right above yours I clearly mentioned the issue with the elderly and you are also repeating what I posted earlier about the healthcare capacity. I also do say that Sweden is at 80% of their healthcare capacity in the fight against the Coronavirus and the article says just that, they have had 20% or more of their intensive care available.

I've been very clear and repeating this again, When people like to post and crown "Sweden success" and use propaganda articles, videos over and over to argue with anyone who questions the validity of "Sweden success" all in an attempt to support their views or what they have done as a model to emulate here in Canada it simply is not a true representation of the facts, when so far Sweden has failed and there is no evidence to prove their measures of keeping businesses open would pay off in the long run. As well whether you would like to wait for 3-9 months (BTW before you posted 3-6 months what changed the duartion) to come to a conclusion or a guess of Sweden's success or failure is irrelevant and irrational, I would much rather use the data and the facts we already know regarding the Coronavirus to come to an educated guess and avoid the significant and senseless extra number of cases and deaths. As one can read from the article there are 2000 Swedish scientists who agree with that sentiment. Currently due to Sweden's approach of keeping businesses open there is a significant number of avoidable cases and deaths attributed to their approach, and there simply is no evidence to prove that in the long run they will fare better than other countries that instituted shutdowns.

As for your claim that there are "countries that have been through lockdowns and are reopening and accept 70% capacity of their healthcare system being an acceptable number to operate while opened" I've never read an unbiased article that has the government of Canada, or the USA or any other leading western nations such as Germany, Spain, UK, France, or Italy on record saying that. You must have a link to an article for this?
Please do not provide one of those videos that you've posted numerous times which contain false or misleading information and are solely based on ones feelings and opinions and are non factual.
 

doggystyle99

Well-known member
May 23, 2010
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March 27
-----------------------Confirmed Cases------------------Total Deaths---------------------------------Death Rate----
Sweden-------------3069---------------------------------105--------------------------------------------3.4%
Denmark------------2046---------------------------------52---------------------------------------------2.5%
Norway--------------3771---------------------------------19---------------------------------------------0.5%


April 27
-----------------------Confirmed Cases-------------------Total Deaths---------------------------------Death Rate----
Sweden-------------18926--------------------------------2274-------------------------------------------12%
Denmark------------8698---------------------------------427---------------------------------------------4.9%
Norway--------------7599---------------------------------205---------------------------------------------2.7%
 

lenny2

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2012
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March 27
-----------------------Confirmed Cases------------------Total Deaths---------------------------------Death Rate----
Sweden-------------3069---------------------------------105--------------------------------------------3.4%
Denmark------------2046---------------------------------52---------------------------------------------2.5%
Norway--------------3771---------------------------------19---------------------------------------------0.5%


April 27
-----------------------Confirmed Cases-------------------Total Deaths---------------------------------Death Rate----
Sweden-------------18926--------------------------------2274-------------------------------------------12%
Denmark------------8698---------------------------------427---------------------------------------------4.9%
Norway--------------7599---------------------------------205---------------------------------------------2.7%
Is there - any - value in these numbers - whatsoever?

How about we check again in 3, 6, 12, 24 months?

It could be an entirely different picture then.
 

doggystyle99

Well-known member
May 23, 2010
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March 27
-----------------------Confirmed Cases------------------Total Deaths---------------------------------Death Rate----
Sweden-------------3069---------------------------------105--------------------------------------------3.4%
Denmark------------2046---------------------------------52---------------------------------------------2.5%
Norway--------------3771---------------------------------19---------------------------------------------0.5%


April 27
-----------------------Confirmed Cases-------------------Total Deaths---------------------------------Death Rate----
Sweden-------------18926--------------------------------2274-------------------------------------------12%
Denmark------------8698---------------------------------427---------------------------------------------4.9%
Norway--------------7599---------------------------------205---------------------------------------------2.7%
March 28
---------------------Confirmed Cases----------------Total Deaths--------------------Daily Cases----------------Daily Deaths----------------Death Rate--------
Sweden-----------3447-------------------------------105-------------------------------378-------------------------0------------------------------3%--------------
Denmark----------2201-------------------------------65--------------------------------155-------------------------13-----------------------------3%--------------
Norway------------4015-------------------------------23--------------------------------244-------------------------4------------------------------0.6%--------------


April 28
---------------------Confirmed Cases----------------Total Deaths--------------------Daily Cases----------------Daily Deaths----------------Death Rate--------
Sweden-----------19621-----------------------------2355-----------------------------695-------------------------81-----------------------------12.0%--------------
Denmark----------8851------------------------------434-------------------------------153------------------------7-------------------------------4.9%--------------
Norway------------7660------------------------------206-------------------------------61-------------------------1-------------------------------2.7%--------------
 

doggystyle99

Well-known member
May 23, 2010
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Is there - any - value in these numbers - whatsoever?

How about we check again in 3, 6, 12, 24 months?

It could be an entirely different picture then.
Things might be completely different in 3, 6, 12 or 24 months. Data always tells a story and in this case it is no different. We rely on data and facts to make informed decisions not feelings and opinions.
Using the data that we already have and combining it with the facts we know regarding the Coronavirus we can make educated guesses, it was an educated guess in late March to say that the numbers of cases, deaths and death rate in Sweden will be significantly and unnecessarily higher than Denmark and Norway.
It was also an educated guess to say that there is no evidence to support what Sweden is doing will work for the better in the short or long run.

This was what many people said in late March about Sweden due to the fact that they kept businesses open but unfortunately some people who were trying to open businesses up in the USA and Canada said the same thing then that they are saying now, "it's too early to make such assessments" as they were trying to paint the "Sweden success" picture and if those assessments were listened to it would have saved a significant number of deaths in that country.
 

G.D. Gentleman

Spin Spin Sugar...
Jun 24, 2019
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As for your claim that there are "countries that have been through lockdowns and are reopening and accept 70% capacity of their healthcare system being an acceptable number to operate while opened" I've never read an unbiased article that has the government of Canada, or the USA or any other leading western nations such as Germany, Spain, UK, France, or Italy on record saying that. You must have a link to an article for this?
Please do not provide one of those videos that you've posted numerous times which contain false or misleading information and are solely based on ones feelings and opinions and are non factual.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IunZz5PL9nM&t=3016s

Andrew Cuomo - Governor of New York State which has 43 million citizens he governs - Live (and unedited, lol) update from today. He has mentioned the 70/30% ratio previously in another recent update and again does so today in this video.

If you haven't seen one of his updates yet it's worth a watch and of course, as we all know - you will tear it apart and share your invaluable opinion with us. :)
 

fall

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2010
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March 28
---------------------Confirmed Cases----------------Total Deaths--------------------Daily Cases----------------Daily Deaths----------------Death Rate--------
Sweden-----------3447-------------------------------105-------------------------------378-------------------------0------------------------------3%--------------
Denmark----------2201-------------------------------65--------------------------------155-------------------------13-----------------------------3%--------------
Norway------------4015-------------------------------23--------------------------------244-------------------------4------------------------------0.6%--------------


April 28
---------------------Confirmed Cases----------------Total Deaths--------------------Daily Cases----------------Daily Deaths----------------Death Rate--------
Sweden-----------19621-----------------------------2355-----------------------------695-------------------------81-----------------------------12.0%--------------
Denmark----------8851------------------------------434-------------------------------153------------------------7-------------------------------4.9%--------------
Norway------------7660------------------------------206-------------------------------61-------------------------1-------------------------------2.7%--------------
You like to show this snapshot data, but your interpretation of it is completely wrong. It is like if you compare two business based on the dividends they pay without taking into account investment expenditures. The Sweden high number of deaths today is an investment in future lower number of death and economic prosperity; while most of the countries pay high dividends now (by lower deaths level) but will be paying much lower dividends (have higher number of deaths) in the future than Sweden. Why? Because, like management of a public corporation who cares more about current numbers (that affect their bonuses) then long-term performance of the company, the government cares more about short-term effect instead of long-term because short-term results are the ones that affect their probability to stay in power.
 

G.D. Gentleman

Spin Spin Sugar...
Jun 24, 2019
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IunZz5PL9nM&t=3016s

Andrew Cuomo - Governor of New York State which has 43 million citizens he governs - Live (and unedited, lol) update from today. He has mentioned the 70/30% ratio previously in another recent update and again does so today in this video.

If you haven't seen one of his updates yet it's worth a watch and of course, as we all know - you will tear it apart and share your invaluable opinion with us. :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgGSlRGYacw&t=5024s

This is Andrew's live broadcast from yesterday where he first shares their goal of maintaining at least 30% of the healthcare system while re-opening the economy. Skip ahead to 4:00 mark if you like and at 4:58 he starts speaking specifically about the 70% level being 'a safe metric' to use based on their calculations.
 

doggystyle99

Well-known member
May 23, 2010
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Andrew Cuomo - Governor of New York State which has 43 million citizens he governs - Live (and unedited, lol) update from today. He has mentioned the 70/30% ratio previously in another recent update and again does so today in this video.

If you haven't seen one of his updates yet it's worth a watch and of course, as we all know - you will tear it apart and share your invaluable opinion with us. :)
I specifically asked for countries why because your post said "many countries". Governor of New York does not equate to "many countries" as per your opinion that specified "many countries were willing to operate at 70% healthcare capacity in the fight against the Coronavirus when shutdowns are lifted". Simply that is a non factual statement you made about "many countries" for the sensationlism effect to your opinion.
I've never read an article that has UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, USA or Canada's government saying such. Perhaps you've read at least one article which has these countries on the record saying that in that case then you can provide a link.
 

doggystyle99

Well-known member
May 23, 2010
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You like to show this snapshot data, but your interpretation of it is completely wrong. It is like if you compare two business based on the dividends they pay without taking into account investment expenditures. The Sweden high number of deaths today is an investment in future lower number of death and economic prosperity; while most of the countries pay high dividends now (by lower deaths level) but will be paying much lower dividends (have higher number of deaths) in the future than Sweden. Why? Because, like management of a public corporation who cares more about current numbers (that affect their bonuses) then long-term performance of the company, the government cares more about short-term effect instead of long-term because short-term results are the ones that affect their probability to stay in power.
My interpretation is this Which I've clearly stated numerous times:
Denmark, Norway, and Sweden orginally saw a significant number of cases in the fight against the Coronavirus all in the same time frame. Denmark and Norway closed non essential businesses and shut their borders. Meanwhile Sweden kept businesses open and kepts it's borders open. In just over a month the numbers of deaths, numbers of cases and the death rate have increased in all the countries. The only major difference is in Sweden the number of cases, deaths and the death rate is significantly higher in proportion to Denmark and Norway even when you accounting for the difference in population.
You need to stop using analogies that have nothing to do with the Coronavirus and use the facts and data we know that are in front of you.

As per your assertion that the high numbers of death "is an investment in the future lower numbers" and I quote, there is absolutely zero, zilch, nada evidence that the numbers of deaths in the future in Sweden will somehow be as significantly or even more lower to Denmark and Norway than it was during this significantly higher death numbers. And that simply is an unfounded opinion (non factual).
 

fall

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2010
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My interpretation is this Which I've clearly stated numerous times:
Denmark, Norway, and Sweden orginally saw a significant number of cases in the fight against the Coronavirus all in the same time frame. Denmark and Norway closed non essential businesses and shut their borders. Meanwhile Sweden kept businesses open and kepts it's borders open. In just over a month the numbers of deaths, numbers of cases and the death rate have increased in all the countries. The only major difference is in Sweden the number of cases, deaths and the death rate is significantly higher in proportion to Denmark and Norway even when you accounting for the difference in population.
You need to stop using analogies that have nothing to do with the Coronavirus and use the facts and data we know that are in front of you.

As per your assertion that the high numbers of death "is an investment in the future lower numbers" and I quote, there is absolutely zero, zilch, nada evidence that the numbers of deaths in the future in Sweden will somehow be as significantly or even more lower to Denmark and Norway than it was during this significantly higher death numbers. And that simply is an unfounded opinion (non factual).
Again, you look at current cash flow to shareholders (current number of deaths) and not at the capital investment (healthier economy and total # of infected that may result in heard immunity) There is evidence of this capital investment in Sweden: healthier economy due to the fact that economy stays open and higher number of infected (young people, the majority of whom, due to open economy, most probably already had the infections but did not seek medical attention or got tested). Do not confuse the number of infected with the number of confirmed cases. The latter is a documented number and most of it reflect people in risk group or with complication, the former is not directly observable but can be roughly estimated by the infection model and openness of the economy.
 

doggystyle99

Well-known member
May 23, 2010
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Again, you look at current cash flow to shareholders (current number of deaths) and not at the capital investment (healthier economy and total # of infected that may result in heard immunity) There is evidence of this capital investment in Sweden: healthier economy due to the fact that economy stays open and higher number of infected (young people, the majority of whom, due to open economy, most probably already had the infections but did not seek medical attention or got tested). Do not confuse the number of infected with the number of confirmed cases. The latter is a documented number and most of it reflect people in risk group or with complication, the former is not directly observable but can be roughly estimated by the infection model and openness of the economy.
There is absolutely zero, zilch, nada evidence that the numbers of deaths in the future in Sweden will somehow be as significantly or even more lower to Denmark and Norway than it was in comparison to the significantly higher death numbers when the peak originally hit. Furthermore there is absolutely no evidence currently to suggest that in the future Sweden will not have further peaks while all other nations who instituted shutdowns will. These assertions you make are simply your feelings and opinion on the subject and are not to be confused as facts.
 

G.D. Gentleman

Spin Spin Sugar...
Jun 24, 2019
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I specifically asked for countries why because your post said "many countries". Governor of New York does not equate to "many countries" as per your opinion that specified "many countries were willing to operate at 70% healthcare capacity in the fight against the Coronavirus when shutdowns are lifted". Simply that is a non factual statement you made about "many countries" for the sensationlism effect to your opinion.
I've never read an article that has UK, France, Italy, Germany, Spain, USA or Canada's government saying such. Perhaps you've read at least one article which has these countries on the record saying that in that case then you can provide a link.
You are so predictable. *yawn*

Since you know everything doggystyle99 - please provide links and trusted information sources on what you understand the healthcare systems will be setting as acceptable levels of operation when they are operating in post lockdown, some titling it 'Phase II' for reference. Please, show us, oh wise one.

And if you dare say it's too early to tell, then you once again support the understanding that you're attempting to in a 3rd thread now, draw conclusion on Sweden long before anyone should be.

As readers can see in this thread again, other members are also attempting to explain this to you but your head is so damn thick it doesn't appear anything will get through to you - but we will keep trying because it's sporting to do so. ;-)

Take care of yourself DS99 and good luck with this thread.
 

G.D. Gentleman

Spin Spin Sugar...
Jun 24, 2019
2,529
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There is absolutely zero, zilch, nada evidence that the numbers of deaths in the future in Sweden will somehow be as significantly or even more lower to Denmark and Norway than it was in comparison to the significantly higher death numbers when the peak originally hit. Furthermore there is absolutely no evidence currently to suggest that in the future Sweden will not have further peaks while all other nations who instituted shutdowns will. These assertions you make are simply your feelings and opinion on the subject and are not to be confused as facts.
And there is absolutely zero, zilch, nada evidence that the number of deaths in the future of Sweden will be high and doomsday-like as you keep attempting to suggest.

In summary, too early to tell. Funny, you just confirmed this to be fact - that it's too early to tell - and yet you are so bent on drawing a conclusion on Sweden, now.


We see you're taking plays out of Trumps playbook - trying to have it both ways and still be right. Well done and thank you for the entertainment.
 
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