The infection rates will vary.
The real death rate is dependent on the ability to respond to the sick, which will not vary greatly between countries with similar health care systems, assuming they have not exceeded capacity.
End the Lockdown
- Thread starter TeeJay
- Start date
The real death rate is dependent on the ability to respond to the sick, which will not vary greatly between countries with similar health care systems, assuming they have not exceeded capacity.
Sweden has 1400 deaths as of today compared to 1310 in Canada. Sweden also has roughly 1/3 of the population of Canada. No one knows how this will play out. Sweden might end up having a higher death toll in the beginning, middle but will reach herd immunity quickly and may have a lower death toll in the long run. Or they might end up having a huge death toll and we learn herd immunity is not a good method. We are learning as we go. Just be gratefully Ontario has over 2500 icu beds and less than 10% being used. So if you or a loved one is unlucky and needs hospitalization, we have plenty of beds.
This is the most important point that many including myself have been trying to make.Sweden has 1400 deaths as of today compared to 1310 in Canada. Sweden also has roughly 1/3 of the population of Canada. No one knows how this will play out. Sweden might end up having a higher death toll in the beginning, middle but will reach herd immunity quickly and may have a lower death toll in the long run. Or they might end up having a huge death toll and we learn herd immunity is not a good method. We are learning as we go. Just be gratefully Ontario has over 2500 icu beds and less than 10% being used. So if you or a loved one is unlucky and needs hospitalization, we have plenty of beds.
In no scenario do we want to overburden the healthcare system because if it does happen death tolls will dramatically rise and in affect making the death rate a lot higher that what it currently is in Canada, exactly what happened in Italy. Had Italy closed it's borders and enforced strict quarantine measures with the people adhering to it sooner they would have been in far more better scenario.
The best scenario is to flatten the curve and ride it out so the healthcare system is not at maximum capacity which also has an affect on all the other people who need critical care from other illnesses.
Swedes may have much more natural immunity to the novel virus than other countries. Northern Europeans have greater immunity to a number of diseases, such as HIV, etc. So comparing infections, deaths, death rates, etc, between countries may be pointless?Sweden has 1400 deaths as of today compared to 1310 in Canada. Sweden also has roughly 1/3 of the population of Canada. No one knows how this will play out. Sweden might end up having a higher death toll in the beginning, middle but will reach herd immunity quickly and may have a lower death toll in the long run. Or they might end up having a huge death toll and we learn herd immunity is not a good method. We are learning as we go. Just be gratefully Ontario has over 2500 icu beds and less than 10% being used. So if you or a loved one is unlucky and needs hospitalization, we have plenty of beds.
"An estimated 1 percent of people descended from Northern Europeans are virtually immune to AIDS infection, with Swedes the most likely to be protected."
https://www.wired.com/2005/01/genetic-hiv-resistance-deciphered/
"1. So far we have over 34k Coronavirus deaths to just 24k flu deaths (2019-20). And the flu season usually comes to an end in April while Coronavirus won't be disappearing anytime soon.
2. I've worked in LA (Downtown) and each morning freeways into the city are jam-packed with people driving into work from the suburbs. Only reason LA didn't end up like NY is due to Governor Newsom instituting the nation's first stay-at-home order and social distancing. Just goes to show how early mitigation tactics work like a charm. Something the Orange idiot should've done in the early days of the outbreak.
3. Flu vaccines were 60% effective in 2010, 56% in 2009 and 48% in 2015. All better than 0% for the Coronavirus. If the predicted death toll for the Coronavirus was 80k, then we wouldn't have had to do stay at home and social distancing except the real death toll was in the MILLIONS. Even with the strictest social measures in recent history, it's going to kill more than the flu.
4. Doesn't matter if some states appear to be "Coronavirus free or lite".... South Dakota just became a hotspot because their idiot Governor refused to adopt stay at home orders. Just goes to show any place USA can become a hotspot without proper social measures."
2. I've worked in LA (Downtown) and each morning freeways into the city are jam-packed with people driving into work from the suburbs. Only reason LA didn't end up like NY is due to Governor Newsom instituting the nation's first stay-at-home order and social distancing. Just goes to show how early mitigation tactics work like a charm. Something the Orange idiot should've done in the early days of the outbreak.
3. Flu vaccines were 60% effective in 2010, 56% in 2009 and 48% in 2015. All better than 0% for the Coronavirus. If the predicted death toll for the Coronavirus was 80k, then we wouldn't have had to do stay at home and social distancing except the real death toll was in the MILLIONS. Even with the strictest social measures in recent history, it's going to kill more than the flu.
4. Doesn't matter if some states appear to be "Coronavirus free or lite".... South Dakota just became a hotspot because their idiot Governor refused to adopt stay at home orders. Just goes to show any place USA can become a hotspot without proper social measures."
Forget about Sweden & countries on other continents look directly south to States that have embraced the fact this thing isn't going away anytime soon & we still have to have an economy. Here's some quotes from the seven governors in the US that didn't enforce a lockdown but some common sense rules & the stats that go with them. To all the sheep out there that think the whole country should be locked down give your fukkin head a shake & look at the repercussions it's having on our economy & the world. We're on the train ride to depressionville & another month or more of this nonsense there won't be any turning the train around.
Our large cities Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver pose the same problems our big city neighbors to the south are having & any other metropolitan city, the amount of people entering & leaving & population density is too high just to open the gates. City officials need to come up with innovative idea's on how to manage this so as not to overrun the health care system & keep things in check. That's going to take some time to get a plan & measures in place. I get that & if that takes 3 weeks to 2 months so be it. But ffs let's get the smaller cities, & towns across this great country back on track. It's not rocket science, it's plain fukkin common sense! Of course cases will rise & deaths will happen but there has to be a point we engage the enemy or it's going to silently defeat us & take away our standard of living for years & years to come. Petiton your local counsellor's, mayor's & MP's to get the powers that be in Ottawa to get this train moving again. Sitting it out with this enemy simply will not work...
Governor Asa Hutchinson of Arkansas "We want to take the long-term approach to this and you're not going to win simply by a lockdown"
37 Deaths as of today & 12.25 dpm(deaths per million)
Governor Kim Reynolds of Iowa "It would be irresponsible for me to just do a statewide order when, according to Dr. Fauci, many of the mitigation efforts that I have put in place are actually aligned with the results that they're trying to get.
64 Deaths as of today & 20.25 dpm
Governor Pete Ricketts of Nebraska "We're calling on people to exercise their freedom to do the right thing, that individual responsibility, that civic duty, to do the right thing here in our state"
24 deaths as of today & 12.5 dpm
Governor Doug Bergum of North Dakota "We get to listen to people who think we've locked down too much and people who think we need to lock down more but we would invite those people that signed that petition to really dig into the numbers with us"
9 Deaths as of today & 12 dpm
Governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota (who is still hot for her age) "I have all the faith in the world of the people of South Dakota," Noem says. "They've been absolute rock stars in working to protect their communities and their families."
7 Deaths as of today & 8 dpm
Governor Gary Herbert of Utah "Stay home stay safe" a directive not an order
23 Deaths as of today & 7.25 dpm
Governor Mark Gordon of Wyoming best response of all "If you're waiting for me to issue a shelter-in-place order... what are you waiting for?"... "Are you waiting for, 'mother may I?' Or are you taking care of yourself and practicing the common sense that we expect? One of our Wyoming values is 'talk less, say more'. Our orders talk less and say more."
2 Deaths as of today & 3.5 dpm
Now lets compare the numbers for our two hardest hit provinces Ontario 478 Deaths & 33dpm, Quebec 688 Deaths & 81dpm. Average in seven states NOT LIVING UNDER STAY AT HOME ORDERS & A ECONOMY STILL GENERATING PRODUCT, SERVICES & PAYCHECKS EVERYYYYYYDAYYYYYY
13,539,000 people all using their God given common sense & averaging 10.82 Deaths Per Million
Our large cities Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver pose the same problems our big city neighbors to the south are having & any other metropolitan city, the amount of people entering & leaving & population density is too high just to open the gates. City officials need to come up with innovative idea's on how to manage this so as not to overrun the health care system & keep things in check. That's going to take some time to get a plan & measures in place. I get that & if that takes 3 weeks to 2 months so be it. But ffs let's get the smaller cities, & towns across this great country back on track. It's not rocket science, it's plain fukkin common sense! Of course cases will rise & deaths will happen but there has to be a point we engage the enemy or it's going to silently defeat us & take away our standard of living for years & years to come. Petiton your local counsellor's, mayor's & MP's to get the powers that be in Ottawa to get this train moving again. Sitting it out with this enemy simply will not work...
Governor Asa Hutchinson of Arkansas "We want to take the long-term approach to this and you're not going to win simply by a lockdown"
37 Deaths as of today & 12.25 dpm(deaths per million)
Governor Kim Reynolds of Iowa "It would be irresponsible for me to just do a statewide order when, according to Dr. Fauci, many of the mitigation efforts that I have put in place are actually aligned with the results that they're trying to get.
64 Deaths as of today & 20.25 dpm
Governor Pete Ricketts of Nebraska "We're calling on people to exercise their freedom to do the right thing, that individual responsibility, that civic duty, to do the right thing here in our state"
24 deaths as of today & 12.5 dpm
Governor Doug Bergum of North Dakota "We get to listen to people who think we've locked down too much and people who think we need to lock down more but we would invite those people that signed that petition to really dig into the numbers with us"
9 Deaths as of today & 12 dpm
Governor Kristi Noem of South Dakota (who is still hot for her age) "I have all the faith in the world of the people of South Dakota," Noem says. "They've been absolute rock stars in working to protect their communities and their families."
7 Deaths as of today & 8 dpm
Governor Gary Herbert of Utah "Stay home stay safe" a directive not an order
23 Deaths as of today & 7.25 dpm
Governor Mark Gordon of Wyoming best response of all "If you're waiting for me to issue a shelter-in-place order... what are you waiting for?"... "Are you waiting for, 'mother may I?' Or are you taking care of yourself and practicing the common sense that we expect? One of our Wyoming values is 'talk less, say more'. Our orders talk less and say more."
2 Deaths as of today & 3.5 dpm
Now lets compare the numbers for our two hardest hit provinces Ontario 478 Deaths & 33dpm, Quebec 688 Deaths & 81dpm. Average in seven states NOT LIVING UNDER STAY AT HOME ORDERS & A ECONOMY STILL GENERATING PRODUCT, SERVICES & PAYCHECKS EVERYYYYYYDAYYYYYY
13,539,000 people all using their God given common sense & averaging 10.82 Deaths Per Million
Speaking of South Dakota:
"Scott Gottlieb, President Donald Trump's former head of the Food and Drug Administration, expressed concern about the state's numbers.
"South Dakota has become one of the fastest growing hot spots in U.S., even as other parts of nation see their epidemics start to level off or slow. South Dakota has a doubling time now of about 4 days. In the setting of the ongoing national epidemic, every state is vulnerable," he tweeted.
Over 500 employees at the Smithfield pork-processing plant have tested positive for the virus, and the factory, which employs 3,700 people, was shuttered until further notice over the weekend. Over 100 nonemployees in the area have gotten sick after having come into contact with the plant workers, the Argus Leader newspaper reported, citing data from the state Health Department."
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...noem-who-opposed-stay-home-order-now-n1184851
Sweden, which didn't shut things down, is not doing well lately, either.
I wonder how Mexico is doing. They were late to start shutting things down:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rus-crisis-deepens-mexicos-misery/2985920001/
"Scott Gottlieb, President Donald Trump's former head of the Food and Drug Administration, expressed concern about the state's numbers.
"South Dakota has become one of the fastest growing hot spots in U.S., even as other parts of nation see their epidemics start to level off or slow. South Dakota has a doubling time now of about 4 days. In the setting of the ongoing national epidemic, every state is vulnerable," he tweeted.
Over 500 employees at the Smithfield pork-processing plant have tested positive for the virus, and the factory, which employs 3,700 people, was shuttered until further notice over the weekend. Over 100 nonemployees in the area have gotten sick after having come into contact with the plant workers, the Argus Leader newspaper reported, citing data from the state Health Department."
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/po...noem-who-opposed-stay-home-order-now-n1184851
Sweden, which didn't shut things down, is not doing well lately, either.
I wonder how Mexico is doing. They were late to start shutting things down:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...rus-crisis-deepens-mexicos-misery/2985920001/
HardlySorry . Border is closed .
More propaganda
Have a work Visa
You can cross
Have a Student Visa
You can cross
Nevermind the fact that millions of Canadians are unemployed, we are IMPORTING foreign workers from places like China, Philippines, and Central America lol
Certain lobby groups pushed hard for so many exemptions that anyone who really believes the border is "closed" are delusional
But that pales compared to others such as Student Visas
They arent going to go to school so why the fuck are we letting them in the country???
Apparently so is smokingThese two men were both overweight. Not obese, but about 50 lb overweight, judging from their photos.
Obesity is strongly correlated to COVID-19 deaths.
BTW, I disagree with the OP. The lives of over 60s matters, too, IMO. I'm 55.
(gee a respiratory sickness that preys on marijuana smokers who would have thunk it)
Yet Arkansas has - locked down - schools since March & for the rest of the school year.Here's some quotes from the seven governors in the US that didn't enforce a lockdown but some common sense rules & the stats that go with them.
[snip]
Governor Asa Hutchinson of Arkansas "We want to take the long-term approach to this and you're not going to win simply by a lockdown"
37 Deaths as of today & 12.25 dpm(deaths per million)
Restaurants are locked down from having customers dining in. They can only offer take out, the same as in Canada. And Arkansas restaurants are suffering, because they're getting so little business, since people are - locking - themselves down. Just like in Canada.
"LITTLE ROCK, Ark. — Some restrictions could be lifted in May that would include reopening some small businesses and restaurants. But until then, many are struggling to stay afloat.
Three Fold is one of the only restaurants in downtown Little Rock still open and serving takeout. Even then, the owner Lisa Zhang says it is still incredibly difficult to make ends meet.
...Gov. Asa Hutchinson said Arkansas could move into phase one of lifting restrictions on May 4. That would include opening up some restaurants under strict physical distancing guidelines.
"We're going to start lifting some of the restrictions, but we're going to do it very carefully," he said.
https://www.thv11.com/article/money...-open/91-3635d7e5-4d26-4e4f-a2e1-d4a0c961ccdc
"Reopening some businesses and restaurants" - does that sound like Arkansas's economy is open for business?
"Gov. Hutchinson sets May 4 as target date to begin reopening state economy".
https://talkbusiness.net/2020/04/go...ate-to-begin-reopening-state-economy-updated/
Does that sound like Arkansas's economy is open for business?
"He also urged businesses to begin preparing for reopening by establishing accommodations to allow distancing, and cleaning and sanitizing work areas. He also said the state may allow hospitals to return to elective procedures even before an official move into Phase 1. Overall, the governor’s medical advisory group is looking at all directives to see “how we can walk ourselves back” from the restrictions, Smith said."
"...What about hair salons, barbers, esthetians and massage therapists? When do we get to go back to work?"
https://talkbusiness.net/2020/04/go...ate-to-begin-reopening-state-economy-updated/
"...It's a time where the only crowded parking lots are found in front of grocery stores and "open" signs on businesses are few and far between."
https://www.thv11.com/article/news/...-hire/91-bc336c41-835f-44eb-b258-94628dfb53a6
That sounds pretty much the same as Canada.
I wonder if it's any different in the other states you mentioned.
Like in Arkansas, many Canadians are still receiving paychecks, so what's the difference?Now lets compare the numbers for our two hardest hit provinces Ontario 478 Deaths & 33dpm, Quebec 688 Deaths & 81dpm. Average in seven states NOT LIVING UNDER STAY AT HOME ORDERS & A ECONOMY STILL GENERATING PRODUCT, SERVICES & PAYCHECKS EVERYYYYYYDAYYYYYY
13,539,000 people all using their God given common sense & averaging 10.82 Deaths Per Million
Like in Canada, in Arkansas unemployment has gone through the roof. So what's the difference?
Why may Ontario/Quebec have a higher DPM rate than Arkansas? It may largely be due to few infected people visiting the state relative to Ontario/Quebec. Not due to anything Arkansas is doing regarding restrictions on their economy. After all, how many people from hotspots like China, Iran & Italy have recently visited Arkansas? If Arkansas doesn't keep their borders locked down, they could be in for a world of hurt & death. They'll also need to keep the virus that has already entered their state under control, just like we in Canada are doing.
BTW, Arkansas intends to keep their schools closed for the year, as mentioned above, but Quebec plans to reopen them in early May. So who's on "lockdown"?
"1. So far we have over 34k Coronavirus deaths to just 24k flu deaths (2019-20). And the flu season usually comes to an end in April while Coronavirus won't be disappearing anytime soon.
2. I've worked in LA (Downtown) and each morning freeways into the city are jam-packed with people driving into work from the suburbs. Only reason LA didn't end up like NY is due to Governor Newsom instituting the nation's first stay-at-home order and social distancing. Just goes to show how early mitigation tactics work like a charm. Something the Orange idiot should've done in the early days of the outbreak.
3. Flu vaccines were 60% effective in 2010, 56% in 2009 and 48% in 2015. All better than 0% for the Coronavirus. If the predicted death toll for the Coronavirus was 80k, then we wouldn't have had to do stay at home and social distancing except the real death toll was in the MILLIONS. Even with the strictest social measures in recent history, it's going to kill more than the flu.
4. Doesn't matter if some states appear to be "Coronavirus free or lite".... South Dakota just became a hotspot because their idiot Governor refused to adopt stay at home orders. Just goes to show any place USA can become a hotspot without proper social measures."
I vs said the same. Well said.
As for Quebec /Ontario opening schools in May - this is the bluff are gov is playing to keep people calm = we will open schools one week later in March. then 2 then April than May 2 Then May 12th . .. and say next May 28th? Soon it will be September and then . . .
I suspect a vast majority of those who are collecting the CERB hope it will continue for at least a year. For many it probably equals their annual income so why bother working. Once they reopen the economy I bet it will take a year for the economy to recover. The unemployment rate will remain high until 2022.The vast majority of the population doesn’t care about the economy they think things can just be restarted like the flip of a switch....as soon as the handouts dry out they might just start to wake up...
An opportunity for hungry ambitious immigrants to take over jobs that Canadians would rather sit home and collect CERB on.
Hey why am I not being hired back for my job!!?? Sorry Mohammed and his friends were willing to come into work and take over your duties amidst the covid scare. Now he has your job and does it better than you did, and we pay him slightly less! Good luck living in your new home at the trailer park!
Hey why am I not being hired back for my job!!?? Sorry Mohammed and his friends were willing to come into work and take over your duties amidst the covid scare. Now he has your job and does it better than you did, and we pay him slightly less! Good luck living in your new home at the trailer park!
100 percent this will happen.An opportunity for hungry ambitious immigrants to take over jobs that Canadians would rather sit home and collect CERB on.
Hey why am I not being hired back for my job!!?? Sorry Mohammed and his friends were willing to come into work and take over your duties amidst the covid scare. Now he has your job and does it better than you did, and we pay him slightly less! Good luck living in your new home at the trailer park!
Even tho millions are out of work in Canada farmers still need to import Mexican workers since no Canadian wants the job even with Great Depression unemployment rates.
An opportunity for hungry ambitious immigrants to take over jobs that Canadians would rather sit home and collect CERB on.
Hey why am I not being hired back for my job!!?? Sorry Mohammed and his friends were willing to come into work and take over your duties amidst the covid scare. Now he has your job and does it better than you did, and we pay him slightly less! Good luck living in your new home at the trailer park!
Depends on the job, not to mention, many people can't play office politics game. In life many times there are people that can do jobs better then others, but they lack the social skills to get promotions, etc....
I think many immigrants would lack this skill. Not all, but many.
As U.S. coronavirus fatality rate rises to 5 percent, experts are still trying to understand how deadly this virus is
With government officials debating how and when to reopen the economy, a fundamental question about the coronavirus pandemic remains unanswered: Just how deadly is this disease?
The “case fatality rate” of covid-19 varies wildly from country to country and even within nations from week to week. In Germany, fewer than three out of every 100 people with confirmed infections have died. In Italy the rate is almost five times higher, according to official figures.
Singapore, renowned for its careful testing, contact tracing and isolation of patients, saw only 10 deaths out of 4,427 cases through April 16. That yields a strikingly low case fatality rate of 0.2 percent, about twice the rate of seasonal influenza.
Without widespread testing to find out how many people have been infected, it remains impossible to determine precisely the lethality of the virus in any given community or demographic group. Researchers know that many infections result in no symptoms.
With government officials debating how and when to reopen the economy, a fundamental question about the coronavirus pandemic remains unanswered: Just how deadly is this disease?
The “case fatality rate” of covid-19 varies wildly from country to country and even within nations from week to week. In Germany, fewer than three out of every 100 people with confirmed infections have died. In Italy the rate is almost five times higher, according to official figures.
Singapore, renowned for its careful testing, contact tracing and isolation of patients, saw only 10 deaths out of 4,427 cases through April 16. That yields a strikingly low case fatality rate of 0.2 percent, about twice the rate of seasonal influenza.
Without widespread testing to find out how many people have been infected, it remains impossible to determine precisely the lethality of the virus in any given community or demographic group. Researchers know that many infections result in no symptoms.
Another reason for anti-body testing is to see if anti-bodies means immunity.
There are a couple of hundred people in Korea who were found to be cured but later went on to be sick again.
Hopefully this was reactivation and not reinfection.
There is no evidence that people who have recovered from coronavirus have immunity to the disease, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has said.
The UK government has bought 3.5 million serology tests - which measure levels of antibodies in blood plasma.
But senior WHO epidemiologists have warned that there is no proof that such antibody tests can show if someone who has been infected with COVID-19 cannot be infected again.
Many of the tests being developed are pinprick blood tests similar to instant HIV tests and measure for raised levels of the antibodies that the body uses to fight the virus .
Speaking at a news conference in Geneva, Dr Maria van Kerkhove said: "There are a lot of countries that are suggesting using rapid diagnostic serological tests to be able to capture what they think will be a measure of immunity.
"Right now, we have no evidence that the use of a serological test can show that an individual has immunity or is protected from reinfection."
She added: "These antibody tests will be able to measure that level of seroprevalence - that level of antibodies - but that does not mean that somebody with antibodies means that they are immune."
Dr van Kerkhove said it was "a good thing" that so many tests are being developed, but said they will need to be validated "so that we know what they say they attempt to measure they are actually measuring".
There are a couple of hundred people in Korea who were found to be cured but later went on to be sick again.
Hopefully this was reactivation and not reinfection.
There is no evidence that people who have recovered from coronavirus have immunity to the disease, the World Health Organisation (WHO) has said.
The UK government has bought 3.5 million serology tests - which measure levels of antibodies in blood plasma.
But senior WHO epidemiologists have warned that there is no proof that such antibody tests can show if someone who has been infected with COVID-19 cannot be infected again.
Many of the tests being developed are pinprick blood tests similar to instant HIV tests and measure for raised levels of the antibodies that the body uses to fight the virus .
Speaking at a news conference in Geneva, Dr Maria van Kerkhove said: "There are a lot of countries that are suggesting using rapid diagnostic serological tests to be able to capture what they think will be a measure of immunity.
"Right now, we have no evidence that the use of a serological test can show that an individual has immunity or is protected from reinfection."
She added: "These antibody tests will be able to measure that level of seroprevalence - that level of antibodies - but that does not mean that somebody with antibodies means that they are immune."
Dr van Kerkhove said it was "a good thing" that so many tests are being developed, but said they will need to be validated "so that we know what they say they attempt to measure they are actually measuring".
My advice to small business owners is to stop pushing for an end to the lockdown. All it takes is for one (yes, jut one) infected person to walk into your establishment and you and your staff could be infected. You can't run a business when you are very sick or dead.
