Study suggests Liberal carbon tax plan would put more money in Canadians' pockets

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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You did not read the link I gave
https://www.livescience.com/40311-pleistocene-epoch.html
Here is the title of the article
Pleistocene Epoch: Facts About the Last Ice Age
Dig deeper, larue, its only making it more fun.

From your first link:
The Pleistocene Epoch is typically defined as the time period that began about 2.6 million years ago and lasted until about 11,700 years ago.
https://www.livescience.com/40311-pleistocene-epoch.html

From your wiki link:
The earth is currently in an interglacial, and the last glacial period ended about 10,000 years ago. All that remains of the continental ice sheets are the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets and smaller glaciers such as on Baffin Island.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

You should read your own words and accept your own verdict.
Nope you wear the dunce cap again
Moron
Allow me to buy you the new hat, idiot.

So take a look at this chart again and see if the end of the last ice age is in its range.
For a further bonus question, why don't you see if you can tell us when the Last Glacial Period was, and if its on this chart?
Here's a hint (for idiots who can't use the google)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period

 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
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The global temperature increase, which has hit 1ºC since pre-industrial times, is not a straight line....
That's exactly my point.

The graph shows this huge climb to represent a temperature change of 1ºC over more than a century -- a temperature change that most of us would never notice if it occurred over the course of an hour.

If you want to talk about graphs that plot axes in a way that arguably distort the real context, that graph is a perfect example.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
17,081
2,832
113
Dig deeper, larue, its only making it more fun.

From your first link:

https://www.livescience.com/40311-pleistocene-epoch.html

From your wiki link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_age

You should read your own words and accept your own verdict.


Allow me to buy you the new hat, idiot.

So take a look at this chart again and see if the end of the last ice age is in its range.
For a further bonus question, why don't you see if you can tell us when the Last Glacial Period was, and if its on this chart?
Here's a hint (for idiots who can't use the google)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_glacial_period

Look stupid , all you have proven is that it is ended 11,000 year ago, which I stated several posts ago
That does not mean the earth does not continue to warm up, it just means most of the ice was melted


What you are missing is the fact the ice age began long before the start of your chart
Your data uses ice core samples
Now the dating of these is suspect because they use half lifes, however
If the ice age started after 800,000 ago as you claim , guess what?
No ice & therefore no ice core samples to make your silly little chart with

Your little chart is looking at an 800,000 period when you need to look at 3-5 million years if you want to see a representative graphical chart and draw the conclusion you have
Again you are using a yardstick to try and measure kilometers

you are such an idiot
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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Look smart person , all you have proven is that it is ended 11,000 year ago, which I stated several posts ago
That does not mean the earth does not continue to warm up, it just means most of the ice was melted
What you are missing is the fact the ice age began long before the start of your chart
You're an idiot.
You didn't read your wiki pages on ice ages, which is the bare minimum you should do before you pretend to know something about a subject.

The Pleistocene Epoch, which you posted about, was not one single, continuous ice age. Instead there were long periods of ice ages with breaks between them, or interglacial periods. If you could read a chart you would have noticed that there are lots of peaks in the global temp over the last 800,000 years. You would also understand that humanity came into prominence during one of the geologically short and unstable, interglacial periods. That's why fucking with the global climate is really fucking stupid, because yes the planet's climate isn't that stable and if you can push it into a thermal maximum and/or eventually back into an ice age by fucking with the CO2 balance.

Its basic science, larue.
From your wiki page:

The Quaternary Glaciation / Quaternary Ice Age, started about 2.58 million years ago at the beginning of the Quaternary Period when the spread of ice sheets in the Northern Hemisphere began. Since then, the world has seen cycles of glaciation with ice sheets advancing and retreating on 40,000- and 100,000-year time scales called glacial periods, glacials or glacial advances, and interglacial periods, interglacials or glacial retreats. The earth is currently in an interglacial, and the last glacial period ended about 10,000 years ago


Your data uses ice core samples
Now the dating of these is suspect because they use half lifes, however
If the ice age started after 800,000 ago as you claim , guess what?
No ice & therefore no ice core samples to make your silly little chart with

Your little chart is looking at an 800,000 period when you need to look at 3-5 million years if you want to see a representative graphical chart and draw the conclusion you have
Again you are using a yardstick to try and measure kilometers

you are such a genius
Are you prepared to use this claim as a metric to whether you are a total idiot or whether you know what you are talking about?
We can dig into it, but only if you accept that you're staking your reputation on this claim.

Are you ready?
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
17,081
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You're an idiot.


Are you ready?
Look stupid
You used a graph which was too short to validate you absolute claim
It uses ice core samples to attempt to date data, so your entire graph is based upon a period when there were glaciers (ie an ice age & a period when the earth was cool)
Now if you wanted to show the earth was heating up abnormally you would have to go farther back in time i.e. 3-5 MM years


As you point out
Instead there were long periods of ice ages with breaks between them, or interglacial periods.
Which means the earths climate has been constantly changing long before humans showed up & that puts reasonable doubt on your ABSOLUTE position climate change is man made
You are an ignorant fool & have zero rational for labelling anyone a "denier

God you are stupid

Are you prepared to use this claim as a metric to whether you are a total idiot or whether you know what you are talking about?
We can dig into it, but only if you accept that you're staking your reputation on this claim.
You are a proven untrustworthy lair, with zero credibility
I do not accept conditions from anyone let alone proven untrustworthy lairs, with zero credibility

You need to get banned & come back as someone else before you can try and ring fencing anyone in an argument
Even then they will either ignore you or tell you to get lost
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
17,081
2,832
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I thought the carbon tax would drive all business away?

Shell, Partners Approve $31 Billion Project to Speed Gas to Asia
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-30/shell-partners-said-to-approve-31-billion-lng-canada-project
It will
Carbon tax to shrink economy by $3 billion, hurt loonie, study warns
https://business.financialpost.com/...conomy-by-3-billion-hurt-loonie-in-2018-study

Perhaps shell believes Justin's days are numbered & that saner policies will previal
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,523
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Look stupid
You used a graph which was too short to validate you absolute claim
You're full of shit here, larue.
Tell me what claim I made that was not supported by the chart I supplied.
Keeping in mind that the last glacial period was roughly 120,000-10,000 years ago.

Which means the earths climate has been constantly changing long before humans showed up & that puts reasonable doubt on your ABSOLUTE position climate change is man made
Two points:
1) Yes the climate has constantly changed, but what that chart shows is that humanity came to prominence during a geologically short interglacial period. Those periods have been unstable, which is prime reason you don't go priming the system and filling the atmosphere with CO2 that will force it into a thermal maximum and/or ice age.

2) My claim is not absolute, in fact its the claim of all of climatology that says they are 95% certain that we are experiencing anthropogenic climate change.
The fifth Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report states with 95 percent confidence that humans are the main cause of the current global warming.
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...2013/sep/27/global-warming-ipcc-report-humans

Its only your incredible ignorance that lead you to claim that this is my claim.
I am much more humble and easily admit that this is the findings of thousands of scientists who have studied the issue for decades.
It most definitely is not just my personal opinion.
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
17,081
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Frankfooter;6231570[QUOTE said:
]
You're full of shit here, larue.
Tell me what claim I made that was not supported by the chart I supplied.

Look Stupid
Your absolute claim is that climate change is man made & that anyone who does not agree with you is a "denier'
Your chart is based upon a time reference when there has always been glaciers as the data was collected from ice core samples
So the time reference does not look at period when the earth was significantly warmer ie 3-5 million years ago
It was warm, then it cooled off and now it is thawing out again is most certainly a reasonable alternative at this point


Keeping in mind that the last glacial period was roughly 120,000-10,000 years ago
That time frame is less than equivalent to a warm day in January & claiming winter must be over


Two points:
1) Yes the climate has constantly changed, but what that chart shows is that humanity came to prominence during a geologically short interglacial period. Those periods have been unstable, which is prime reason you don't go priming the system and filling the atmosphere with CO2 that will force it into a thermal maximum and/or ice age.
That is your theory, And that is all it is. a theory
You think you silly little graph proves this theory & you are wrong. It proves nothing
Your own silly little graph shows it was hotter 120,000, 220,000 and 400,000 years ago, by a measelly 1 degree, long before man inhabited the earth

2) My claim is not absolute, in fact its the claim of all of climatology that says they are 95% certain that we are experiencing anthropogenic climate change.
Bullshit
Anyone who disagrees with you is labeled a denier
Anyone who is undecided is labeled a denier
You leave only one option and that is to agree with you
That makes your claim absolute & ignorant as hell

how many times do you have to be told there is a difference between scientific consensus and scientific proof

Its only your incredible ignorance that lead you to claim that this is my claim.
Nope you make this claim every time you label someone a "denier

I am much more humble and easily admit that this is the findings of thousands of scientists who have studied the issue for decades.
It most definitely is not just my personal opinion.
You are too stupid to do grade 10 level math, yet you have an absolute opinion about an extremely complex issue which has some significant data limitations
The time reference of recorded history is miniscule relative to history of the earth which apparently has a 4.5 history of constantly changing climate

Lots of room for reasonable doubt when some lying propaganda machine says climate change is man made & therefore we need to tax you
Do you really think we do not see your motivation here?
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,523
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Look smart person
Your absolute claim is that climate change is man made & that anyone who does not agree with you is a "denier'
Larue, these aren't my claims, they are the findings of all scientists who have studied the matter, as reported by the IPCC.
It most definitely is not my opinion, its the results of decades of work by thousands of scientists.

These are the words and findings of the IPCC.
The fifth Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report states with 95 percent confidence that humans are the main cause of the current global warming.

You are so partisan that if I told you that gravity is a law you would argue against it.

You are a denier, as you continue to deny the reality that 97% of scientists who study the climate back the statement I posted.
Your CM like conspiracy theory thinking and denial is clearly stated right here:
Lots of room for reasonable doubt when some lying propaganda machine says climate change is man made & therefore we need to tax you
Do you really think we do not see your motivation here?
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,523
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I'm so behind the times? I'm not the CEO of Shell (nor am I the person who posted that story). My guess is the heads of those companies aren't buying this latest study on renewable energy.
In 1988 Shell hid an internal report that showed how devastating climate change will be.
https://globalnews.ca/news/4127757/shell-climate-change-report-1988/

Which is why they are facing a lawsuit in their home country.
https://www.climateliabilitynews.org/2018/05/30/shell-climate-lawsuit-netherlands/

Which is also why they've publicly announced they support action on climate change.
http://reports.shell.com/sustainability-report/2015/energy-transition/addressing-climate-change.html

Its also why they spent $400 million on investments in green energy.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...cranks-up-race-for-clean-energy-idUSKBN1FF1A8

You were saying?
 

JohnLarue

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2005
17,081
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Larue, these aren't my claims, they are the findings of all scientists who have studied the matter, as reported by the IPCC.
It most definitely is not my opinion, its the results of decades of work by thousands of scientists.
Look Stupid
Anyone who disagrees with you is labeled a denier
Anyone who is undecided is labeled a denier
You leave only one option and that is to agree with you
That makes your claim absolute & ignorant as hell

how many times do you have to be told there is a difference between scientific consensus and scientific proof?


You are so partisan that if I told you that gravity is a law you would argue against it.
Do not be so god damn stupid
i notice you finally figured out your little chart does not make your position absolute as the time reference is way too short to validate your claim

You are a denier, as you continue to deny the reality that 97% of scientists who study the climate back the statement I posted.
Your CM like conspiracy theory thinking and denial is clearly stated right here:
And there you have it
Anyone who disagrees with you is labeled a denier
Anyone who is undecided is labeled a denier
You leave only one option and that is to agree with you
That makes your claim absolute & ignorant as hell

you are a scientific know nothing, and do not understand the science you use to promote your cause
And you think you have the moral authority to label someone a denier because they do not agree with you

a moron & a lair
How Trump like
 

Moviefan-2

Court Jester
Oct 17, 2011
10,489
171
63
You were saying?
That your posts are often totally moronic.

What exactly is it that you're saying? You think Shell and its partners are investing more than $31 billion in technology that they don't believe will produce any profits?

Are you for real?

By the way, it was natural gas that allowed the former Liberal government in Ontario to phase out coal-fired plants. If the government had tried to use wind and solar to replace that energy, we would still have coal plants in Ontario today.
 

PornAddict

Active member
Aug 30, 2009
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John Ivison: Game-changing study suggests Liberal carbon tax plan would put more money in Canadians' pockets

John Ivison

September 19, 2018 7:54 PM EDT

Last Updated September 20, 2018 8:45 AM EDT

“Bring it on.”

That was Conservative leader Andrew Scheer’s response Wednesday to Justin Trudeau’s defence of the Liberal carbon tax and the Liberals’ willingness to fight the 2019 election on its imposition on provinces like Ontario and Saskatchewan that have served notice they won’t comply with federal carbon-pricing legislation.

The Conservatives have made it clear they see the cost to the average family of Trudeau’s carbon tax as their preferred ballot question next year, particularly after Doug Ford’s Ontario government cancelled the province’s cap-and-trade regime and joined Saskatchewan in its court battle contesting Ottawa’s jurisdictional right to impose the tax.

But new research will be released next week that is set to transform the debate.

The National Post obtained an advance copy of a paper to be released by Canadians for Clean Prosperity, a non-partisan group led by Mark Cameron, ex-policy director to Stephen Harper, that promotes putting a price on pollution and cutting taxes.

The Liberals’ Greenhouse Gas Pollution Pricing Act requires Ottawa to return tax revenue to the province where it was raised in cases where it has imposed a “backstop” carbon tax in the absence of a recognized provincial climate plan. Trudeau has indicated that, rather than sending a rebate to the governments of those provinces, he may choose to send the money directly to its households.

Research by environmental economist Dave Sawyer of EnviroEconomics suggests that in this scenario most households, regardless of income level, would receive more money from the federal government than they would pay in carbon taxes.

The Conservatives have long railed against the Liberals’ “tax on everything” but the study of three provinces suggests those households — particularly at the lower end of the income spectrum — would end up better off. The amount they receive would rise over time in line with the direct carbon tax, which will start at $20-per-tonne next January and rise to $50-a-tonne in 2022.

Sawyer’s research indicates that the carbon tax will cost consumers more when it comes to gasoline and home heating — at $20 a tonne,roughly 4.5¢ more per litre of gas. These direct energy costs, and indirect costs for things like the transportation of goods, will vary according to income band and province.

But, for example, in 2019 an Ontario household earning $60,000-$80,000 a year would pay an average of $165 more in increased direct carbon costs for energy, while in Alberta and Saskatchewan, where there is more coal-fired electricity, that figure would rise to $249 and $259 respectively.

In line with the rising tax rate, in 2022 those direct costs would rise to $332 in Ontario, $486 in Alberta and $511 in Saskatchewan.

There would be additional indirect costs, which for the same income band would add $74 in 2019 in Ontario ($177 by 2022); $73 in Alberta ($174 in five years time); and $73 in Saskatchewan ($174 by 2022).

However, the study estimates the rebate per household would be $350 in Ontario in 2019, rising to $836 in 2022; $868 in Alberta in 2019, rising to $1,890; and $1075 in Saskatchewan, rising to $2,394. If this scenario plays out, in five years the net benefit per household at that income bracket would be $328 in Ontario, $1,231 in Alberta and $1,711 in Saskatchewan.

The reason households would get more back than they paid? Carbon taxes will be collected not only from households but also from business and industrial emitters, and Sawyer’s modelling assumes that while the federal government would return some industrial revenues to large emitters, most would be rebated directly to households.

Lower income families would benefit disproportionately — for example a Saskatchewan household earning $20-40,000 a year would be $1,864 better off by 2022.

Cameron’s argument is that the objection to carbon pricing — that it will cost average households large amounts of money — is ill-founded, and can be mitigated by smart government policy. Clean Prosperity suggests that per-capita carbon dividends would be highly progressive (the biggest benefit would go to lower income households) and would not penalize emissions-intensive provinces — which, in fact, have more to gain.

It is an intriguing study, and one that is likely to make life easier for Trudeau as he prepares to impose his pricing scheme on provinces that don’t have one (or at least not one the feds recognize).

The Conservatives have been keen to make the carbon tax the biggest single issue of next year’s election campaign, on the premise that when the debate is over taxes, they win.

But in 2015’s campaign they found themselves outbid by the Liberals on giveaways, particularly the ridiculously generous Canada Child Benefit, and they may well be again.

Scheer has committed to meeting Canada’s Paris climate targets — emissions 30-per-cent below 2005 levels by 2030 — but without a carbon tax. That likely means regulation across a range of sectors that, while less visible, most experts suggest would be more complex and more expensive than a simple pricing mechanism.

The Conservatives will hope nobody notices. But the Liberals can be relied upon to point out that, while their plan will put money in the pockets of Canadians, their opponents intend to increase the cost of everything, for absolutely everybody.

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/john-ivison-game-changing-study-suggests-liberal-carbon-tax-plan-would-put-more-money-in-canadians-pockets/wcm/94c270af-568a-4af2-88b4-a4d5d0d0c0d0
What a stupid thread from the left!!
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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113

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
91,523
22,161
113
Look Smarter Person
Anyone who disagrees with you is labeled a denier
Anyone who is undecided is labeled a denier
You leave only one option and that is to agree with you
That makes your claim absolute & ignorant as hell
Like I keep saying.
You are disagreeing with the 97% of scientists who back the findings of the IPCC and their 95% certainty of anthropogenic climate change.

That makes you a science denier.
Deal with it.
 

K Douglas

Half Man Half Amazing
Jan 5, 2005
27,261
7,914
113
Room 112
Like I keep saying.
You are disagreeing with the 97% of scientists who back the findings of the IPCC and their 95% certainty of anthropogenic climate change.

That makes you a science denier.
Deal with it.
Both the 97% and 95% are fabricated numbers. They're propaganda.
 
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