Ontario Teacher's Pension Plan

[Frankfooter]

In the real world you do not get to pass the buck if you cost your organization $100K

Yet they are still producing graduates who are not prepared for life ahead. That is NOT an excellent job!!!!

So exactly what value are they providing to our society?
Compensation and value have to be linked

If as you say it is the system that is failing, blow it up and start over with the objectives of
1. properly prepare the kids for life,
2. ensuring value obtained is aligned with the costs and
3. ensuring our education spend does not continue to expand the unsustainable amount of debt Ontario has assumed

Enriching teachers should not be an objective or the result

Blaming teachers for teaching what they are told to teach is just stupid.
If you want to change the curriculum talk to the politicians who put the 'business model' in place.
Change the people who set the curriculum, not the people who teach it.

Its the business model that you are pushing that forced teachers to not fail students.
That's where the problem comes from, not the teachers, they'd love to be able to fail students again, you should ask them.

 

[basketcase]

Again I am not claiming the teachers pensions are the cause of Ontario's financial mess...

Except that's exactly what you were suggesting.

And yes, your opinion runs completely contrary to the data. Canada's education system in rated among the top in the world. Of course there improvements that can be made and every single one of your complaints here is about government policy but that doesn't stop you from pretending it's really the fault of the teachers.

hence they are ineffective and do not warrant a cost of 100K

At 100K / year doing their best is not good enough
in the real world there would be changes that is for sure

So you say teachers aren't worth it because they follow the instructions of their employer and should therefore be fired. Do you realize how idiotic that claim is?

It's quite clear that you have no interest in evidence based discussion or even the pension plan but simply want to bitch about teachers once again.

 

[JohnLarue]

Blaming teachers for teaching what they are told to teach is just stupid.

No paying out $100 K per year to each teacher and having them produce moron graduates is just stupid.

If you want to change the curriculum talk to the politicians who put the 'business model' in place.
Change the people who set the curriculum, not the people who teach it.

Passing the buck again ?
you use to quote all kinds of test results to claim what a great job teachers were doing and somehow in your messed up world that justified paying them excessively
Now that the real determination of value (i.e. is the student well prepared for life ahead ?) has been shown to be unsatisfactory, you want to blame the curriculum and refuse to assign any blame to teachers.
No! that just does not fly
They have not changed the curriculum enough to cause this issue

If you cost your organization $100K / year you need to be accountable for the end result.

Its the business model that you are pushing that forced teachers to not fail students.

I am not pushing any model

Trying to assignee blame for the teachers unbelievably expensive failure is just second nature for you! Now its my fault?
Let me clarify, for $100k / year I expect students to be prepared for what lies ahead and if this is not possible lets not continue to compensate teachers at such an extravagant amount

If you cost your organization $100K / year you need to be accountable for the end result.

That's where the problem comes from, not the teachers, they'd love to be able to fail students again, you should ask them.

That's strange, for $100K I would expect a teacher to educate rather than just assign a fail mark when a student is unprepared for life

If you cost your organization $100K / year you need to be accountable for the end result.

 

[JohnLarue]

Except that's exactly what you were suggesting.

I suggested nothing of the sort and was very clear stating the entire excessive compensation for teachers has been a contributing factor in creating a unsustainable debt load for this province

And yes, your opinion runs completely contrary to the data. Canada's education system in rated among the top in the world.

what part of "Graduates who cant handle math is not the definition of excellent" did you not understand
Ratings have the same value as tits on a bull if gradates are not properly prepared for the challenges ahead

Of course there improvements that can be made and every single one of your complaints here is about government policy but that doesn't stop you from pretending it's really the fault of the teachers.

If you cost your organization $100K / year you need to be accountable for the end result.

So you say teachers aren't worth it because they follow the instructions of their employer and should therefore be fired. Do you realize how idiotic that claim is?

Less idiotic than paying them $100K a year in order for them to blame someone else for unacceptable results

It's quite clear that you have no interest in evidence based discussion or even the pension plan but simply want to bitch about teachers once again.

Its also quite clear you have no interest in truly educating our youth and want to pay Teachers excessively without any accountability for the end result and without any regard for the impact on the provinces finances.

Do you truly think there is nothing to bitch about, when the result is graduates who can not handle math?

 

[JohnLarue]

Teachers are doing an excellent job teaching the curriculum they are given within the rules they are mandated.
If there are issues with the education system then you need to fault those who set the rules and punish the right wing politicians who tried to put in a business model into education.
Like you.

They are the ones at fault.

So despite being paid double the national average, working only 2/3 the hours of national average and producing moron graduates teachers get a free pass and have zero accountability wrt how well prepared graduates are for the world?

That is your conclusion??????

Instead you blame the government bureaucrats. Right wing bureaucrats no less
Strange that you blame right wing politicians as the Liberals have controlled the education system in this province for the last decade plus
So we will just go with you blame government

https://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto...tion-funding-to-24b-for-next-school-year.html

They will spend $24 B (That's Billion) and produce a bunch of moron graduates
why not just burn that money?
It would be a hell of a bon fire, you would see it for miles

Yet you want bigger government and you want government to steal from the top 1% (or 10%) to give to the unsuccessful
And you are 100% certain this government led plan will not damage our economy
????

What In the world makes you think the bozos put in charge of stealing and redistributing wealth would have any more success than the bozos who were entrusted with educating or youth and have failed so miserably?

your logic is really flawed

 

[basketcase]

I suggested nothing of the sort ...

Right. And the guy on Ancient Aliens is just asking questions and and mob enforcers are just saying it would be unfortunate if something happened.

Canada's education system routinely tests among the top in the world. It's a fact.

And it is quite comical that a staunch conservative supports socialism, wanting the government to confiscate private investment plans to balance it's debt.

 

[Frankfooter]

So despite being paid double the national average, working only 2/3 the hours of national average and producing moron graduates teachers get a free pass and have zero accountability wrt how well prepared graduates are for the world?

Sorry to hear you think that the present generations are all morons.
But you really should blame your business model, the one that told students that they paid for their degrees so they deserve to pass.

By the way, you failed in your accusations.
Canada ranks #3.
http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38212070

 

[JohnLarue]

Sorry to hear you think that the present generations are all morons.
But you really should blame your business model, the one that told students that they paid for their degrees so they deserve to pass.

By the way, you failed in your accusations.
Canada ranks #3.
http://www.bbc.com/news/education-38212070

Its not my business model
Where you came up with that is almost as confusing as where you wanted to tax assets but claimed you did not
Lonnie left logic I guess- It just does not make sense

Let me clarify for you
The liberals have been in power in Ontario for the past decade +
The current failing education system is a liberal system
This is Granny Wynn's mess (one of many)


And once again you ignore the real results and think rankings and ratings of teachers by other teachers somehow justifies their excessive comp and absolves them of any accountability

Article after article stating there is a problem with graduates who can not handle math and are ill prepared for life and your pull out a rating / test score and think problem solved ??
It is not solved

Those kids deserve much better.
Shame on you for glossing over the issue with bullshit test results !!
Shame on you for putting teacher enrichment ahead of the interest of our youth

The whole mess costs us $24 B a year, yet you think teachers are not accountable !!!
Unbelievable

Funny how you ignored a serious contradiction in your loonie left philosophy
You blamed the government, clearly implied government is incompetent and yet you want government to get even bigger and you want them to tax Canadians more so they have even more money to mismanage

You ignored that because you know government is incompetent.
You can not address this contradiction, or you would have to blame teachers
It is the teachers union at the heart of this mess, but you will never ever turn on a union regardless of their sins

Absolutely shameful

 

[JohnLarue]

Right. And the guy on Ancient Aliens is just asking questions and and mob enforcers are just saying it would be unfortunate if something happened.

Canada's education system routinely tests among the top in the world. It's a fact.

As stated before rankings and ratings along with a bus ticket get you downtown
Article after article stating there is a problem with graduates who can not handle math and are ill prepared for life and your pull out a rating / test score and think problem solved ??
It is not solved

And it is quite comical that a staunch conservative supports socialism, wanting the government to confiscate private investment plans to balance it's debt.

I suggest you review the posts on that subject
I did not suggest that action and I made it quite clear that I would never support any such expropriation


Its quite comical how you can absolve teachers of any accountability and blame government bureaucrats for failing to properly educate our kids in one post and them three posts later state all is good based upon rankings ?????
Question for you
If all is good what exactly were you blaming government bureaucrats for again?

 

[Frankfooter]

Its not my business model

It most definitely is the market approach that you keep telling us will lead us to glory.
The only major thing that's screwed up about the education system.

 

[JohnLarue]

It most definitely is the market approach that you keep telling us will lead us to glory.
The only major thing that's screwed up about the education system.

That's crap and you know it
The liberals have been in power in Ont for the last decade +
They own the education system and any issues with the education system are theirs.
How you can laid this mess at the feet of the right is absolutely mindboggling
Was it the same ass backwards route you took when blaming obesity on inequality?

In addition teachers have threatened to strike or taken job action several times in the last decade.
If there was an issue with the curriculum being forced on them why did they not strike for that issue?
if ever there would be a reason to protest it should be for the interest of the students

They absolutely freaked about losing banked holidays and yet not a peep about the curriculum being an issue
Because they were too focused on enriching themselves and the interest of the students was a secondary consideration

Those kids deserve much better.
Shame on you for glossing over the issue with bullshit test results !!
Shame on you for putting teacher enrichment ahead of the interest of our youth

You can bet inequality is going to get much worse as there will be a substantial increase in millionaire teachers.
There will also be a substantial increase in youth who will be poor because the millionaire teachers did not prepare a generation for what lies ahead

 

[Frankfooter]

That's crap and you know it
The liberals have been in power in Ont for the last decade +
They own the education system and any issues with the education system are theirs.

The Ontario liberals are a centre right party.
This particular initiative came from the right wingers in that party.
But it most definitely is the market approach to education, as promoted by folks like you.

 

[basketcase]

As stated before rankings and ratings along with a bus ticket get you downtown...

Yet is still a hell of a lot more convincing than anecdotal comments from some guy in an opinion piece. But don't let facts get in the way of your disgust with teachers.


p.s. If you want to whine about the curriculum failing students then it is asinine to direct the criticism to anyone but the people in charge of curriculum.

 

[JohnLarue]

Yet is still a hell of a lot more convincing than anecdotal comments from some guy in an opinion piece. But don't let facts get in the way of your disgust with teachers.

multiple articles indicating graduates can not handle math and are ill repaired for college , university or business,
Gee lets see
Given it is the interests of our youth at stake it may be prudent to dive a little deeper.
But not you , instead you immediately went to
a) shifting blame (disgraceful)
and /or
b) but we have ratings !!!

p.s. If you want to whine about the curriculum failing students then it is asinine to direct the criticism to anyone but the people in charge of curriculum.

Ah shifting blame again
Gee lets see
Why do teacher positions exist?
Perhaps it is too educate our youth and prepare them for the next step in life, college, university or business
And that is not happening
But they have damn fine ratings to pull out at the negotiating table

Would a cost of $100k in the real world demand some accountability for accomplishing the one task your position exists for ?
Most definitely

Of all the strike threats and work to rule incidents from Ont teachers over the last decade, why did they not dig their heels in if the curriculum was a mess ?
Perhaps they preferred instead to fight for their right to banks holidays, pay increases and to have the taxpayer foot the bill for their union lawyers

Absolutely shameful

Our kids are going to be burdened with a ton of debt, do you not think we owe them an education which will provide them with a fighting chance to succeed and pay off this debt?
or do you prefer to tell them years later:
a) the high school ratings were good, that's a real shame you failed out of college because the college expected you to do some math
or
b) listen son, you better marry a teacher because they make a boatload, have zero chance of being fired and they are not accountable

 

[JohnLarue]

The Ontario liberals are a centre right party.
This particular initiative came from the right wingers in that party.
But it most definitely is the market approach to education, as promoted by folks like you.

Get real please!
That's is more ridiculous than blaming obesity on inequality because poor people are forced to supersize their cola when they order the double cheese burger with fries and gravy

Please do not ever (and I mean ever) associate me with the disaster which is the left leaning, loonie tunes, financially irresponsible Ont. Liberal party

 

[Frankfooter]

Get real please!
That's is more ridiculous than blaming obesity on inequality because poor people are forced to supersize their cola when they order the double cheese burger with fries and gravy

Please do not ever (and I mean ever) associate me with the disaster which is the left leaning, loonie tunes, financially irresponsible Ont. Liberal party

Its your model, you should own it.
The market says if you pay good money for some teaching, then you needs to get your papers too.

Its only us leftists who think that education is necessary for a democracy to function and that its worthless if you can just buy a degree.
Its yours.

 

[Frankfooter]

This is an epic stretch, even for your heavily biased POV.

The market approach will fix education though. Bring in a voucher system. Let people direct the $ where they want them.
Let those who already pay for private schools, or religious schools, not have to pay twice.
Let the teachers compete and show what a great job they are doing, based on actual results.
At some point, test the teachers to demonstrate their competence, and bring in SATs to better manage university acceptance.

The current model is broken, and is too bloated to ever repair itself. Time to fix it.

The voucher system is an epic failure, I'm not surprised you want to back it.

 

[FAST]

This is an epic stretch, even for your heavily biased POV.

The market approach will fix education though. Bring in a voucher system. Let people direct the $ where they want them.
Let those who already pay for private schools, or religious schools, not have to pay twice.
Let the teachers compete and show what a great job they are doing, based on actual results.
At some point, test the teachers to demonstrate their competence, and bring in SATs to better manage university acceptance.

The current model is broken, and is too bloated to ever repair itself. Time to fix it.

Yep,... pretty much spot on.

And your points are confirmed by the teachers not wanting to test students,... must be nice to be paid $100k for 9 months plus benefits,... but not have to produce results.

Teachers will fight any attempt at allowing the public to send their children to private schools without paying twice, by going on strike indefinitely,... and as they put it,... "for the students".

 

[Frankfooter]

Yep,... pretty much spot on.

And your points are confirmed by the teachers not wanting to test students,... must be nice to be paid $100k for 9 months plus benefits,... but not have to produce results.

Teachers will fight any attempt at allowing the public to send their children to private schools without paying twice, by going on strike indefinitely,... and as they put it,... "for the students".

It must be quite disappointing to you that you're not able to qualify for one of those plum, $100k jobs, eh?

 

[basketcase]

multiple articles indicating graduates can not handle math and are ill repaired for college , university or business,...

Yet still the system ranks as one of the best in the world.

There is an obvious flaw in education systems because the curriculum is designed to fit the past and current circumstances and can not accurately guess the needs of the future but you don't want to discuss that. You just want to bitch about teachers.

And yes, the curriculum is designed and set by the government. Teachers are paid to implement the government curriculum yet somehow you want to blame teachers for not refusing to do what they are paid to do.