New Staircase in Etobicoke

[james t kirk]

I installed about 1200 square feet of patio with cedar deck and stone work. All done by a professional carpenter and landscaper. As well as 70 feet of new fencing. Lighting by electrician and two gas lines.

All in about 32,000.

And they want double for this? Bullshit. It's a gouge. I don't care what you say Kirk. It's a gouge. It should be tendered out to contractors with reasonable pricing.

This should not cost what you said. I did all of that for my patio. Leveled, proper footing driven into the ground, proper screening, lights, safety rails, all of it. For something about 40 times the size of this.

It's bullshit.

Did your "professional" Contractors carry 10 million dollars in insurance?

What about bonds? Did they have to give you bid bonds, material and performance bonds to 100 percent of the cost of the work?

Did they give you a 2 year Maintenance guarantee?

Did you get a structural Engineer to provide you with signed and sealed drawings, a detailed specification, tender, and an Engineers cost estimate?

Were your Contractors all unionized? The City of Toronto's Fair Wage Office requires that only unionized Construction Companies be able to bid on City of Toronto Construction projects. Not only that, they specify which locals must be used as subtrades. For example, a General Contractor, despite being certified with LiUNA local 183 cannot use local 183 iron workers, he MUST use local 721 iron workers. Do you have those constraints?

Do you even adhere to the Fair Wage Office of the city of Toronto? (Or did you just pay cash?)

Did you require your Contractors to be COR certified?

Did you ask your "professional". Contractors for copies of their Health and Safety Policy?

Did you ask them for a copy of their most recent WSIB clearance certificate? For that matter, we're your professional Contractors even subscribers to WSIB?

Did you use a Toronto Hydro approved Electrical Contractor to do the work?

Did you obtain all necessary building permits?

What about Certificates from the Electrical Safety Authority?

Did you get a permit from the Electrical Safety Authority?

What about TSSA? Did you get the permit and inspection done for the gas work from TSSA?

Did you have the work inspected as it progressed by the Engineer?

No?



You don't know the cost of things.

The boys from the City do. Their estimate is probably very close to what it will cost.

Lastly, a job like this would be tendered out. I don't think the city would undertake this itself.

 

[TeeJay]

I can sort of understand the City's position.

Sort of? Guy builds a rickety half ass staircase on city property and city is obviously concerned about liability
They will tear it down obviously

News story makes a huge deal about high cost of quote but this is due to needing heavy machinery to excavate the incline and lay down a foundation underneath
It is obvious unsafe to simply nail some 2x4 over top of the hill

 

[SirWanker]

ummm there is an existing set of stairs close by ( 120 steps away according to the link) but people somehow are not inclined to use them.
Draw to your own frugal conclusions.................

 

[SkyRider]

Were your Contractors all unionized? The City of Toronto's Fair Wage Office requires that only unionized Construction Companies be able to bid on City of Toronto Construction projects. Not only that, they specify which locals must be used as subtrades. For example, a General Contractor, despite being certified with LiUNA local 183 cannot use local 183 iron workers, he MUST use local 721 iron workers. Do you have those constraints?

Do you even adhere to the Fair Wage Office of the city of Toronto? (Or did you just pay cash?)

Featherbedding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Featherbedding

 

[FAST]

Featherbedding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Featherbedding

That's really the point here, isn't it, but some like to ignore the crap called,..." Fair Wage Office of the city of Toronto",...and its result.

There is NOTHING fair about having union members sitting around being paid while doing NOTHING.

 

[bigshot]

I just saw on the news that Tory has said that work will start on this project within a few days and should be completed within a week at a much lower cost. I can't verify if this is accurate, but if comes to pass, I'd love find out the eventual cost. My guess is that it will be well blow the minimum estimate from the City. It looks like this citizen figured out how to get past the BS that the city goes through just to complete a simple project.

In my area, the residents have been complaining that a small bridge that rotted out in a local ravine several years ago, and the fact that they have put up barriers that are more dangerous to the public than if they just left it alone. The first comment was that it would take another two years to draw up plans and schedule the work, but when someone asked why they just couldn't use the original plans for the first bridge, they had no answer. It seems that cost containment and common sense are antithetical to how our municipalities choose to operate...

 

[james t kirk]

I just saw on the news that Tory has said that work will start on this project within a few days and should be completed within a week at a much lower cost. I can't verify if this is accurate, but if comes to pass, I'd love find out the eventual cost. My guess is that it will be well blow the minimum estimate from the City. It looks like this citizen figured out how to get past the BS that the city goes through just to complete a simple project.

In my area, the residents have been complaining that a small bridge that rotted out in a local ravine several years ago, and the fact that they have put up barriers that are more dangerous to the public than if they just left it alone. The first comment was that it would take another two years to draw up plans and schedule the work, but when someone asked why they just couldn't use the original plans for the first bridge, they had no answer. It seems that cost containment and common sense are antithetical to how our municipalities choose to operate...

With time, Tory is proving himself to be a bit of a talking head.

All it will take is an email from staff to Tory, "So John, am I authorized by you to circumvent all City of Toronto accepted standard practices and regulations on this one and just go ahead and build some stairs?"

How do you think that will go?

If Tory really wanted to do something positive, the first thing he should do is abolish the City of Toronto's Fair Wage Office.

I'd bet everything I own and everything you own that he wouldn't in a million years of platitudes.

 

[SkyRider]

On a somewhat related issue I hate it when the City installs cobblestone sidewalks. It is murder on my high heels. Also, they are very slippery when wet. Very dangerous.

 

[SkyRider]

If Tory really wanted to do something positive, the first thing he should do is abolish the City of Toronto's Fair Wage Office.

Unlike American cities, Canadian cities cannot go bankrupt and, hence, cannot do a fresh start. So, we are saddled with these ridiculous high cost inefficient policies forever.

 

[TFZL1]

Watching the noon news.
They tore apart his stairway, for safety reasons.

Mayor says city will build stairs

 

[GPIDEAL]

seems simple enough that you can't touch/alter public property.
Liability x's infinity. Can we say 'slip n fall'
with a slippery hill, well you're just an idiot if you fall for trying to go down it in the 1st place.
With stairs ,its an open invitation to use & safe & made to building codes, even with the top fence still blocking access. It screams of an accident in progress.
Not to mention that even if it was left to stand, it looks too weak to last a year even if it isn't stressed.
1 or 2 winters & its toast.
Also too many uneven,unsupported, & unstable surfaces that are all subject to shifting &/collapse. Oh yeah & tripping over causing serious injuries.
So then who pays to fix/tear it down then?
Nope,you can't allow it.
We do need ,however to reign in ridiculous gov't expenditures. That is out of control.

exactly!

 

[GPIDEAL]

yeah this sets a very bad precedent. The stairs have to go for all the reasons james mentioned.

yup!

 

[GPIDEAL]

That's really the point here, isn't it, but some like to ignore the crap called,..." Fair Wage Office of the city of Toronto",...and its result.

There is NOTHING fair about having union members sitting around being paid while doing NOTHING.

The Fair Wage Act doesn't necessarily mean that a contractor has to be unionized, but it does require that a certain level of wage be paid for various trades or job types.

Of course, it raises the cost of the city doing business. Unions have infected the public sector and it won't go away no matter what, unless you have a Mayor and majority City council that are against such legislation.

 

[GPIDEAL]

Good on the citizen for making a point but those steps aren't anchored and won't last long.
It's too bad the city's solution is going to be ugly concrete stairs

With all the ongoing projects would it really be that much harder and more expensive to have a bit of design or something that fits the surroundings a little better than ug grey poured concrete.

They could build fancier stairs Matt, but it will cost more. Concrete or pre-cast would always be used, including stone if fancier.

 

[james t kirk]

The Fair Wage Act doesn't necessarily mean that a contractor has to be unionized, but it does require that a certain level of wage be paid for various trades or job types.

Of course, it raises the cost of the city doing business. Unions have infected the public sector and it won't go away no matter what, unless you have a Mayor and majority City council that are against such legislation.

The city has agreed over the years to be bound to pretty much every construction union out there.

There was a link within the link that I posted that stipulates which trades must be unionized to carry out City of Toronto work.

It's virtually every trade, except labourers which must be unionized (unless you are doing work at the CNE, then you must use unionized labourers too)

But it's a catch 22 because any GC who is certified with any construction trade union can ONLY use unionized labour no matter what as per any collective agreement. For example, Ellis Don cannot bid any job being bound to LiUNA, and then go ahead and hire a nonunionized electrical subcontractor. They will shut them down, grieve it, end up before the Ontario Labour Relations Board and they will lose big time.

The City can get rid of the Fair Wage Office and all the agreements with the various construction unions to which they are bonded to, HOWEVER, it would take an act of Council and a determined mayor because the construction unions would fight it tooth and nail. At the end of the day, the politicians pander to the Unions because they want their votes. By voting to eliminate the union strangle hold on the City of Toronto, that politician at best will gain a big fat "meh" from an ignorant general population whilst definitely incurring the wrath of the union rank and file. So the Fair Wage Office and all its union cock sucking is pretty much here to stay.

 

[Butler1000]

Did your "professional" Contractors carry 10 million dollars in insurance?

What about bonds? Did they have to give you bid bonds, material and performance bonds to 100 percent of the cost of the work?

Did they give you a 2 year Maintenance guarantee?

Did you get a structural Engineer to provide you with signed and sealed drawings, a detailed specification, tender, and an Engineers cost estimate?

Were your Contractors all unionized? The City of Toronto's Fair Wage Office requires that only unionized Construction Companies be able to bid on City of Toronto Construction projects. Not only that, they specify which locals must be used as subtrades. For example, a General Contractor, despite being certified with LiUNA local 183 cannot use local 183 iron workers, he MUST use local 721 iron workers. Do you have those constraints?

Do you even adhere to the Fair Wage Office of the city of Toronto? (Or did you just pay cash?)

Did you require your Contractors to be COR certified?

Did you ask your "professional". Contractors for copies of their Health and Safety Policy?

Did you ask them for a copy of their most recent WSIB clearance certificate? For that matter, we're your professional Contractors even subscribers to WSIB?

Did you use a Toronto Hydro approved Electrical Contractor to do the work?

Did you obtain all necessary building permits?

What about Certificates from the Electrical Safety Authority?

Did you get a permit from the Electrical Safety Authority?

What about TSSA? Did you get the permit and inspection done for the gas work from TSSA?

Did you have the work inspected as it progressed by the Engineer?

No?



You don't know the cost of things.

The boys from the City do. Their estimate is probably very close to what it will cost.

Lastly, a job like this would be tendered out. I don't think the city would undertake this itself.

My point being is all of that needed for 100 square feet of concrete stairs?

No it isn't. I had licensed guys with good reps do the work. And my engineer friends who have all come over to feed have admired it and workmanship.

This isn't a building. Its a set of stairs. And a set of requirements Set Up by people in the unions pockets to create the unnecessary process to further line pockets. A good standard contractor can do this for less.

And the work wouldn't be any less shody because they would want repeat business and to maintain a reputation. I have friends who work for the city. They tell me the stories of waste.



Add this one to the list.

 

[james t kirk]

My point being is all of that needed for 100 square feet of concrete stairs?

No it isn't. I had licensed guys with good reps do the work. And my engineer friends who have all come over to feed have admired it and workmanship.

This isn't a building. Its a set of stairs. And a set of requirements Set Up by people in the unions pockets to create the unnecessary process to further line pockets. A good standard contractor can do this for less.

And the work wouldn't be any less shody because they would want repeat business and to maintain a reputation. I have friends who work for the city. They tell me the stories of waste.



Add this one to the list.

LOL,

Yes, everything on my list would be applicable if you wanted to build your deck as per City of Toronto regulations. In fact, there are probably more. Better yet, if your deck was near a ravine or watercourse. It would take you years to get your permits.

I'm not joking.

Set of stairs or not, everything on my list would re required for the City to hire a Contractor to build a set of stairs. (Well, maybe not COR Certification, I'm not sure whether the City demands COR certification yet or not, TTC does and so does Metrolinx and takes about a hundred grand and 2 years worth of investment to get it. Ooops, looks like the City is moving to COR Certification as well.

And even the construction of "just a set of stairs" is in fact covered in the Ontario Building Code.

So bottom line, I will infer from your post that your answer to all of my questions is a big fat NO.

So really, you comparing your deck project to a City of Toronto public works contract really isn't the same thing now is it.

But answer me one question.....

Didja even get a permit?

Actually, answer me 2 questions.....

Were your "professional contractors" covered by WSIB? (Did you even think to ask?) (WSIB isn't that tough to get, but it is red tape, you can't fly under the radar like the good old days, and it makes working for cash real tough.)

 

[Butler1000]

LOL,

Yes, everything on my list would be applicable if you wanted to build your deck as per City of Toronto regulations. In fact, there are probably more. Better yet, if your deck was near a ravine or watercourse. It would take you years to get your permits.

I'm not joking.

Set of stairs or not, everything on my list would re required for the City to hire a Contractor to build a set of stairs. (Well, maybe not COR Certification, I'm not sure whether the City demands COR certification yet or not, TTC does and so does Metrolinx and takes about a hundred grand and 2 years worth of investment to get it. Ooops, looks like the City is moving to COR Certification as well.

And even the construction of "just a set of stairs" is in fact covered in the Ontario Building Code.

So bottom line, I will infer from your post that your answer to all of my questions is a big fat NO.

So really, you comparing your deck project to a City of Toronto public works contract really isn't the same thing now is it.

But answer me one question.....

Didja even get a permit?

Nope. I didn't. Because imo it wasn't necessary. Just like I didn't get one when I redid my front yard either. Just did it. And numerous city people have been by since and never said boo.

Just like the vast majority or Torontonians who do work on their property without Big Brother Watching.

Do you think I would endanger my myself and family with shody work?

A contractor could do this for 10,000 with everthing good and inspected. They just choose not to for the cash and complicity of City Hall. Just like you said.

I don't doubt those are the rules. What I doubt is whether so much is necessary.

 

[SkyRider]

A contractor could do this for 10,000 with everthing good and inspected. They just choose not to for the cash and complicity of City Hall.

They said that it will be done for $10,000 but I think that is only because of all the bad PR they got. The unions will fcuk us on another project so they will still get the extra $140,000.

 

[james t kirk]

Nope. I didn't. Because imo it wasn't necessary. Just like I didn't get one when I redid my front yard either. Just did it. And numerous city people have been by since and never said boo.

Just like the vast majority or Torontonians who do work on their property without Big Brother Watching.

Do you think I would endanger my myself and family with shody work?

A contractor could do this for 10,000 with everthing good and inspected. They just choose not to for the cash and complicity of City Hall. Just like you said.

I don't doubt those are the rules. What I doubt is whether so much is necessary.

So you didn't obey the regulations. See, that's the thing. Obeying the regulations costs money and time. Whether you like it or not, these are the rules and you are not in a position to say what is or what is not required or necessary.

But here's the thing to remember......consider this a learning experience.....

If you hire some guy to work on your house, if nothing else, make SURE that he has WSIB. Ask to see his clearance certificate. The reason is simple. It protects YOU. If you hire a guy for cash to do your roof, or do your windows, or whatever, you need to do 2 things minimum.

1. Get a copy of his WSIB Clearance.

2. If he's working at more than 10 feet off the ground, get a copy of his guy's "Working at Heights Certification" with the Ministry of Labour.

This protects YOU. If you hire Johnnie Cash, and he falls while working on your house, you could find yourself very liable for his injuries. Just ask former BC Premiere Gordon Campbell about that.

Now in fairness to you, working on deck, you're probably not 10 feet off the ground and WSIB is a little murky when it comes to residential.

However, don't kid yourself. If something happens when a guy is working on your house, you will be in the system and because you own your own house, they figure you have money. (If you had fuck all, you probably would not have to worry.)