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Stealthing

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
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ummm just curious how fake boobs are not physical????
For the record, I was arguing fake boobs ARE physical. And that stealthing IS rape.

Consenting to sex isn't consenting to every possible sex act. Unprotected sex is a very different sex act from protected sex.

Let's set aside the term "rape" and speak in terms of the law: stealthing is the crime of sexual assault.

The law:

(3) For the purposes of this section, no consent is obtained where the complainant submits or does not resist by reason of
..
(c) fraud;
Chime in here Fuji. Given the above, would you consider a woman saying she's on the pill when she isn't, or a man saying he's had a vasectomy when he hasn't, rape? It seems to fall within your above clause.

I agree. It's a serious issue to be deceived like that. Ideally i'd prefer not to trust another person & get a vasectomy. Or see proof that she has been fixed or taking her pills, & the like. Though taking the pill is not foolproof. If this matter is such a big deal to someone, they're better off taking more precautions rather than playing roulette with their life.
Okay. I think we're down to arguing semantics, which isn't the important bit anyway. We're more or less on the same page.
 

lenny2

Well-known member
Jan 18, 2012
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No, I simply don't agree with that.
In a figurative sense i suppose you could say "she raped me" because she didn't take the pill as agreed to. Especially if she followed that up with forcing you to pay child support. OTOH this is the first time i've ever heard the word "rape" used that way in a literal sense. It seems off. I don't even recall ever hearing a guy say "she raped me" when that actually happened. It's always been accounts of underage teens who had consensual sex with an adult female. Many comments on here to threads about such cases are of the type that wish they had had that experience.
 

rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
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Charging a JOHN with rape ..... has anyone here even heard of this shit?
There have been several stories, yes. But most often those stories go untold because of the state of the industry.

On the topic of the chill pill, you did just ask if it's even possible to rape a hooker. I mean, we're discussing the finer points of the law, and you're still seemingly stuck in the fundamentals.

Yes. Yes you can rape a hooker. A hooker is a person. If you have sex with her without consent, that would be rape. That's pretty clear cut. Yes, with the state of the industry, escorts are often unwilling to come forward and report such instances. Until that changes, sadly some douchebags will do abhorrent things because they can get away with it.
 

Absalom

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Apr 17, 2017
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There have been several stories, yes. But most often those stories go untold because of the state of the industry.

On the topic of the chill pill, you did just ask if it's even possible to rape a hooker. I mean, we're discussing the finer points of the law, and you're still seemingly stuck in the fundamentals.

Yes. Yes you can rape a hooker. A hooker is a person. If you have sex with her without consent, that would be rape. That's pretty clear cut. Yes, with the state of the industry, escorts are often unwilling to come forward and report such instances. Until that changes, sadly some douchebags will do abhorrent things because they can get away with it.
So let's get it very clear then..... you all seem so well versed in MORAL law.

Hypothetically..

A girl on here has expressed deep hatred for a member of the board and that she is unwilling to see HIM as a client based solely on his online character.

Is seeing HER and not disclosing SAID online name..... in a cloak of ignorance...... RAPE? or just a bit rapey and in poor judgement and makes him an asshole?


Barf up a law on the books that covers that one....
 

fuji

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that does not quite answer the question, because, as i have mentioned above, lying about your age or financial status to get sex is just as fine as lying about having no children etc etc.
Fraud in this section is very narrowly construed.

Notably, promising to pay for sex and then not pay is not a sexual assault.
Clearly there's a line, and it's going to be unclear where exactly that line is until a court rules on it.

Stealthing is different in that it's an ACT that was not consented to. It's not informational, it's not situational, it's a sex act that was not consented.

What you're raising is a subtly different question about the basis of INFORMED consent and what information being misrepresented defeats that. I agree that some of that could prove criminal under the law but that's about what level of misrepresenting information would amount to fraud, it's nothing about the act that was performed itself.

On your different topic of whether misrepresenting yourself would result in enough fraud to claim sexual assault, I agree it could. But exactly where the line is remains unclear until a court rules on it.

My guess is that a court will weigh materiality of the fraud. Is there evidence that the victim would absolutely and unequivocally refused sex had they known the truth, and did the perp intentionally mislead because they knew it?

So there was a case in another country where a guy lied about his religion because the victim was only interested in men from her own since she was seeking relationships that could result in marriage. She clearly would have refused had she known.

But age? Financial status? I think the victim would have to show evidence that this was a deal breaker, like the religious example. If the victim had been very vocal about seeking a successful husband and the perp was unemployed but lied, and the victim could show she had made her conditions clear, I think you'd have a case.

But if it was just something that made the guy more attractive and the victim had never expressed any conditions, then I think it's hard to argue it was truly material. She'd have to show something like they meet through a dating site where her profile and messages made it clear that financial status was a prerequisite for her, or similar evidence, and that the perp lied specifically to overcome her objections.

At any rate that's my opinion, we will need a judge to set a precedent to know where exactly in the slippery slope the line is drawn: but it's drawn SOMEWHERE on that slope.

THIS case though it's much simpler: the act itself of unprotected sex was never consented.
 

Tuscany

Member
Nov 18, 2010
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So all men that are douchbags should disclose this to a hooker or it's taking advantage of her? Can you actually rape a hooker? Seriously?

Pretty hard to enforce with the LE no? BP ads clearly stating her profession would make it very difficult no?
Very disturbing question Absalom. Unequivocally - yes, having sex with a "hooker" against her will is RAPE. Yes it is. Yes it is.
This issue was settled long ago.
The earth is round too.

In the event that you were trying to be humorous, I apologize for the sarcasm.
 

eternalbachelor

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Jan 17, 2017
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My guess is that a court will weigh materiality of the fraud. Is there evidence that the victim would absolutely and unequivocally refused sex had they known the truth, and did the perp intentionally mislead because they knew it?
as I said, not paying an SP after sex is not a sex assault, so your guess is wrong.
 

sweetiepieexo

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Jul 26, 2016
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anywhere i want;)
my apologies. I was trying to understand what you were trying to say.



For the record, I was arguing fake boobs ARE physical. And that stealthing IS rape.



Chime in here Fuji. Given the above, would you consider a woman saying she's on the pill when she isn't, or a man saying he's had a vasectomy when he hasn't, rape? It seems to fall within your above clause.



Okay. I think we're down to arguing semantics, which isn't the important bit anyway. We're more or less on the same page.
 

TFZL1

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Mar 24, 2015
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So let's get it very clear then..... you all seem so well versed in MORAL law.

Hypothetically..

A girl on here has expressed deep hatred for a member of the board and that she is unwilling to see HIM as a client based solely on his online character.

Is seeing HER and not disclosing SAID online name..... in a cloak of ignorance...... RAPE? or just a bit rapey and in poor judgement and makes him an asshole?


Barf up a law on the books that covers that one....
I think she'd have a hard time proving rape, since she agreed to have sex with the client. But to me, its definitely fraud to maliciously mis-represent yourself. Definitely asshole material.
I don't think I Would want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to. If an sp said she didn't want to see me, I'd move on.

I remember back in the day chasing women in bars, I did mis-represent myself, even had a group of friends who would help each other with pick up lines or wing men. I was never very successful, I always let the truth come out before anything happened. It all seemed part of the game.
 

sweetiepieexo

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Jul 26, 2016
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anywhere i want;)
It would not be hard to prove it was rape because she agreed to sex with a condom not without , therefore removing a condom without a sps/ civilians consent can be rape or sexual assault. I believe there was a video posted that explains that this has happened with sps before and both times it resulted with the client being charged of sexual assault.

It is not right to deceive someone in that way. To me us sps are already in a vulnerable sate because we don't know who is coming to our door. It could be LE, rapist, child molester, thug etc. We take risks every single day.. Some things don't make in the media because they want to keep it hush hush but everyone knows the sex/ adult industry is out there.


All we ask is that clients respect our restrictions and not try and take advantage of us. We like it when the sessions go smoothly and both parties are happy. The last thing we want to do is get into a screaming match because some guy likes it better without the rubber.

I think she'd have a hard time proving rape, since she agreed to have sex with the client. But to me, its definitely fraud to maliciously mis-represent yourself. Definitely asshole material.
I don't think I Would want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to. If an sp said she didn't want to see me, I'd move on.

I remember back in the day chasing women in bars, I did mis-represent myself, even had a group of friends who would help each other with pick up lines or wing men. I was never very successful, I always let the truth come out before anything happened. It all seemed part of the game.
 

sweetiepieexo

Well-known member
Jul 26, 2016
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anywhere i want;)
Not only that but you pay sps for their services which can include sex...... Sps consent to safe fun and if you remove a condom , she can charge you with sexual assault ; if you refuse to pay she can charge you for theft , or again sexual assault because you would have taken advantage of her. Sps have rules and restrictions for a reason. I was put into a situation where I agreed to a donation and the client came. He was a regular and never had any problems until one day he told me he was a restaurant owner and said I should come eat there ; I told him I had already eaten there and didn't feel like it that day. I guess he didn't like my response and stole fifty dollars out of my drawer without me knowing until after he left. When I noticed I tried calling him but he blocked my number. Luckily for me he told me the name of his restaurant. I googled the number and called and let the waitress know what happened, she was totally shocked and I told her that if someone didn't bring me the rest of the donation back then I would be contacting LE and bringing them to their restaurant to resolve the issue. Within five minutes of hanging up his buddy showed up with the rest of my donation. After that I never went to that location again or seen that client ever again. If I wanted to I could have charged him with theft.

There is never ever an excuse to take an advantage of an sp . It is just not right.


Wouldn't that be theft?
She already consented to the act, you just left without paying
 

eternalbachelor

New member
Jan 17, 2017
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I don't see the connection to what I wrote so I guess you are just being belligerent and not actually interested in any intelligent discussion.
Here is what you wrote:
"... whether misrepresenting yourself would result in enough fraud to claim sexual assault, I agree it could...
My guess is that a court will weigh materiality of the fraud. Is there evidence that the victim would absolutely and unequivocally refused sex had they known the truth, and did the perp intentionally mislead because they knew it?
"

to which I responded: "not paying an SP after sex is not a sex assault, so your guess is wrong".

Still don't see a connection to what you wrote? You don't think the SP "would absolutely and unequivocally refused sex had they known the truth, and did the perp intentionally mislead because they knew it"?

PS: A Kansas City-area man has pleaded guilty to duping dozens of women into having sex with him on camera
http://www.torontosun.com/2017/05/12/man-tricked-aspiring-porn-stars-into-having-sex-on-camera
 

The Options Menu

Slightly Swollen Member
Sep 13, 2005
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GTA
A Kansas City-area man has pleaded guilty to duping dozens of women into having sex with him on camera
http://www.torontosun.com/2017/05/12/man-tricked-aspiring-porn-stars-into-having-sex-on-camera
Not exactly the same jurisdiction.

Though, I do basically agree that failure to pay after the fact is more a matter of fraud than assault (as there was affirmative consent throughout the sex act, and the subsequent dispute is financial). Though I suspect most sexworkers get paid upfront for most 'direct release' type services. The exception to that being 'just fraud' would be refusing to pay in advance and then having sex, which would pretty clearly be rape (as consent was predicated on payment). Taking the money after, and running, is theft (as there was affirmative consent for the duration of the sex act, and the subsequent dispute is about stealing). Mind you, none of that is terribly relevant to 'stealthing' (which is pretty clearly a breach of consent and some flavour of assault).

At the end of the day, either walk at the door (or don't go to the VIP), or walk when the terms of the agreement aren't to your satisfaction, or act in good faith, don't be duplicitous, and pay the provider. It isn't that complicated or hard. Do you really want it on the public record that you were in any kind of acrimonious dispute with a sexworker? Do sexworkers really need more headaches and abuse? I'd go with, "No!", on both of those.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
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Here is what you wrote:
"... whether misrepresenting yourself would result in enough fraud to claim sexual assault, I agree it could...
My guess is that a court will weigh materiality of the fraud. Is there evidence that the victim would absolutely and unequivocally refused sex had they known the truth, and did the perp intentionally mislead because they knew it?
"

to which I responded: "not paying an SP after sex is not a sex assault, so your guess is wrong".

Still don't see a connection to what you wrote? You don't think the SP "would absolutely and unequivocally refused sex had they known the truth, and did the perp intentionally mislead because they knew it"?

PS: A Kansas City-area man has pleaded guilty to duping dozens of women into having sex with him on camera
http://www.torontosun.com/2017/05/12/man-tricked-aspiring-porn-stars-into-having-sex-on-camera
It seems to me more like a collections issue, the contract is still valid but he hasn't paid. I would see that more as financial fraud than sexual assault. He did agree to pay. He just didn't follow through.
 
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rhuarc29

Well-known member
Apr 15, 2009
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So let's get it very clear then..... you all seem so well versed in MORAL law.

Hypothetically..

A girl on here has expressed deep hatred for a member of the board and that she is unwilling to see HIM as a client based solely on his online character.

Is seeing HER and not disclosing SAID online name..... in a cloak of ignorance...... RAPE? or just a bit rapey and in poor judgement and makes him an asshole?


Barf up a law on the books that covers that one....
I'm not sure how much of this thread you've followed, but I did mention it's a scale. Your hypothetical would be on the lower end of that scale, because you're misrepresenting yourself. Where the term "rape" ends and becomes some lesser crime is unclear.

I think everyone on here agrees that forcible, unconsenting sex acts are rape; and yes, even with a hooker. Stealthing, which is an adaptation on a consenting sex act, also appears to be rape by consensus. I'm arguing that representing that you are on the pill or have had a vasectomy should constitute rape, but not everyone agrees with me. There was a case where a guy falsely represented himself by using a fake profile picture, and ended up having sex with a woman in an unlighted location. He was also charged with rape. Your hypothetical would fall somewhere "better" than the last one. I'd consider it quite a minor offense when compared to forcible rape, stealthing, or misrepresenting your ability to get pregnant or impregnate.
 
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