But that's my point. With regards to the pill, the man is giving consent to have sex so long as she's on the pill. On the flip side, maybe the woman is giving consent so long as the guy has had a vasectomy. If neither of these things are true, that consent evaporates, making it rape.
Stealthing
- Thread starter oakvilleguy
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To me stealthing is rape no matter what. It does not matter if the guy has had a vasectomy. If he takes off the condom without letting the girl consenting to it is rape. She did not agree to it and its taking advantage of her when shes already in a vulnerable state. Us sps don't know who is coming to our door and we take a risk everyday when we open our door. If a client asks me for bbfs even if he has had a vasectomy he still gets blacklisted and is not welcome to come ever just because i have knowledge that he does that. I'm pretty sure if a girl has consented to have sex bb with a guy who has had a vasectomy than the question about stealthing would not even be an issue. Were talking about guys who have agreed to safe fun and have slyly removed the condom without the girl knowing and penetrating her. That is just wrong.
I think the definition of rape regards the act of sex alone, not unrelated things like what pills one is supposed to be on or what they were supposed to have eaten for dinner or supposed to have been wearing, etc.. If it's rape in the scenario you describe, then is it rape if she agreed to eat hamburger that day or brush her teeth before sex but lied? Having concentual sex + lieing is not = to rape. Rape is when the act of sex itself alone is not concentual. If kissing is consented but sex is forced, then it is rape. Likewise when CFS is consented, but BBFS is forced. But, who knows, maybe a judge or jury would see it your way.
"...sexual intercourse carried out forcibly or under threat of injury against the will..."
How to avoid being stealthed. Several tips in this thread:
https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?236647-Stealthing-The-new-disturbing-sex-trend
https://perb.cc/vbulletin/showthread.php?236647-Stealthing-The-new-disturbing-sex-trend
By this reasoning, stealthing would not be rape because she consented to the sexual act. I feel like you're arguing two opposing arguments.
Here it sounds like you're saying stealthing is rape.
But here you're saying it's the sex act itself that needs to be consented to, not the underlying factors.
Now, I believe your argument is that wearing or not wearing a condom is different from lying about being on the pill or having a vasectomy. But my argument is that the sex act would not have taken place if not for the lie, be that wearing a condom or being on the pill or having a vasectomy. It's the deception that makes it rape, not the specific sexual act. All that changes is the severity of the offense.
Was there not a story on here about a guy who was, let's say, aesthetically-challenged who posted a much better looking guy's pic on a dating website, which led to him hooking up with a woman at a dimly lit locale? <I wish I could find the thread> Despite her consenting to sex, he was still charged with rape for deceiving her.
deception is totally fine if it's not physical. Lying about your age or financial status is surely acceptable legally. So are push up bras, makeup or fake boobs.
She consented to a particular sex act (call it A), but not another type of sex act (call it B). If she agrees to kissing (A) but he forces his penis into her vagina (B) against her will, then he is guilty of rape. It is the same idea in stealthing. She agrees to CFS (A) but is caught taking the condom off & penetrating her without it (B). So he is guilty of rape.
It is rape, as i've consistently stated. No doubt about it. It's just like purposely drugging a woman to sleep so you can screw her without her consent.
Underlying factors? There are always numerous possible sex acts. Only the ones consented to are acceptable to engage in. When someone forces a type of sex act on a person that was not agreed to, then it is considered rape or at least sexual assault.
Correct.
Are there any court cases where gals did not take the pill & the guy is charging her with "rape", saying "she raped me" because she didn't take her pill. Sounds a bit silly when put like that, don't you agree? More likely any court cases of this type would involve child custody or child payment issues. A guy could try to sue in civil court re various related matters, e.g. psychological damage & suffering related to fathering a child that she consequently consented to be violently murdered via abortion.
"The word rape is not used in the Canadian Criminal Code. Instead the law criminalizes "sexual assault". Sexual assault is defined as sexual contact with another person without that other person's consent. Consent is defined in section 273.1(1) as "the voluntary agreement of the complainant to engage in the sexual activity in question". For more details, see Sexual assault#Canada."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_regarding_rape#Canada
http://www.sexassault.ca/criminalprocess.htm
It would be interesting to read more about that, if it went to court, what was said there & the verdict.
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No, I simply don't agree with that. I think it's a serious issue when he or she believes safeguards were in place to prevent pregnancy when that belief is based on a lie by the other party. I would say becoming pregnant or impregnating someone is a life changing event, especially when it's unplanned, as is potentially contracting an STD.
ummm just curious how fake boobs are not physical????
They are on a females body no ? Fake boobs are physical because if a guy says are u a natural DD and you say no then he knows you have implants.. Its a physical trait.
To me it sounds like you are condoning stealthing??? but I could be wrong.
Stealthing is rape... If she consented to CFS but you slip off the condom without her knowledge or consent , it is rape. She did not allow you to do that and you took advantage of her. To me its that simple. Its one thing to consent to certain services and of course we all know that it can be YMMV, but if she says no unprotected fs than that means no. There is no ifs, ands or buts.
You say becoming pregnant is a life changing event but to me so is stealthing.
A lady can be traumatized when she finds out that the condom was removed without her knowledge. Therefore it now becomes a life changing event.
They are on a females body no ? Fake boobs are physical because if a guy says are u a natural DD and you say no then he knows you have implants.. Its a physical trait.
To me it sounds like you are condoning stealthing??? but I could be wrong.
Stealthing is rape... If she consented to CFS but you slip off the condom without her knowledge or consent , it is rape. She did not allow you to do that and you took advantage of her. To me its that simple. Its one thing to consent to certain services and of course we all know that it can be YMMV, but if she says no unprotected fs than that means no. There is no ifs, ands or buts.
You say becoming pregnant is a life changing event but to me so is stealthing.
A lady can be traumatized when she finds out that the condom was removed without her knowledge. Therefore it now becomes a life changing event.
Is it rape if an ESCORT clearly says NO to having sex with your ONLINE handle and you don't disclose said handle at the appointment and fuck her anyways? IS STEALTHING YOUR ONLINE HANDLE RAPE?
I wouldn't call that rape but it is seriously a deceitful move on your part.
That's taking advantage of the escort. She obviously did not want to see you for certain reasons and you still go ahead and message her and get service from her therefore taking advantage of her.
That's taking advantage of the escort. She obviously did not want to see you for certain reasons and you still go ahead and message her and get service from her therefore taking advantage of her.
So all men that are douchbags should disclose this to a hooker or it's taking advantage of her? Can you actually rape a hooker? Seriously?
Pretty hard to enforce with the LE no? BP ads clearly stating her profession would make it very difficult no?
No pretty clearly the douchebag is the guy who uses alternate means to book with an SP when she's made it clear she doesn't want to see him.
What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously?
If a woman doesn't consent to a sexual act that is some flavour of sexual assault or rape, period. Even if you get away with it. LE in Toronto has put some serious effort into outreach to sexworkers, and they'd likely take a complaint at least reasonably seriously. Under the new Conservative law it's the buyer of sexual services that's the criminal. While the law is shitty in a large number of ways, even if the courts couldn't get you on sexual assault or rape, they very much could ruin your day with the help of a cooperative sexworker. Though, things happen differently in different jurisdictions, and cases. Even if you get away with it that doesn't make it less of an assault, or the perpetrator any less of a shitty human being.
Take a chill pill.... is that ON YOUR OPTIONS MENU?
WE are just talking here.... exploring issues. Asking questions.
Charging a JOHN with rape ..... has anyone here even heard of this shit?
You can shit down my throat all you like. But the desire to weed out all the douchbags from the client roster is a pipe dream and you know it. If an escort actually knew the monsters she serviced on a daily basis..... RAPE charges would be rampant.
What you said was, "Can you actually rape a hooker? Seriously?" and that's "seriously" dehumanizing, and quite apart from weather or not a sexworker would want to go through a trial. Indeed, many non-sexworkers don't want to participate in the court process out of fear related to stigmatization, and the prospect of further trauma.
Discuss all you want but you're no philosopher.
Can you rape:
- A human? Yes.
- A person? Yes.
- A woman (or somebody identifying as a woman)? Yes.
- Somebody's daughter? Yes.
A sexworker who identifies as a women is all of those things. Philosophical mystery solved (regardless of weather or not charges get pressed).
Though, as I mentioned, given C-36, a smart crown prosecutor would press charges for rape / assault, and for being a John (and not give the option of John School). That way with a cooperative sexworker even if the rape / assault charges fell through they could almost certainly land "John who buys sex" on your record that would prove to be all sorts of fun going forward.
Consenting to sex isn't consenting to every possible sex act. Unprotected sex is a very different sex act from protected sex.
Let's set aside the term "rape" and speak in terms of the law: stealthing is the crime of sexual assault.
The law:
(3) For the purposes of this section, no consent is obtained where the complainant submits or does not resist by reason of
..
(c) fraud;
that does not quite answer the question, because, as i have mentioned above, lying about your age or financial status to get sex is just as fine as lying about having no children etc etc.
Fraud in this section is very narrowly construed.
Notably, promising to pay for sex and then not pay is not a sexual assault.
I agree. It's a serious issue to be deceived like that. Ideally i'd prefer not to trust another person & get a vasectomy. Or see proof that she has been fixed or taking her pills, & the like. Though taking the pill is not foolproof. If this matter is such a big deal to someone, they're better off taking more precautions rather than playing roulette with their life.
