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KING: Donald Trump remains silent as white men terrorize America

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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And the United States would be a failed state if its government fell. Thanks for illustrating the logical dead end known as a tautology.
Actually his point is sectarian violence between tribes and different sects would tear it apart. One thing that has been the trend over and over again once the strong man is gone the factions set to killing each other PDQ.

Personally I would love to see the Fall of the House of Saud. It would also result in funding ending for Wahabbism around the world.
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
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Actually his point is sectarian violence between tribes and different sects would tear it apart. One thing that has been the trend over and over again once the strong man is gone the factions set to killing each other PDQ.

Personally I would love to see the Fall of the House of Saud. It would also result in funding ending for Wahabbism around the world.
Actually it probably wouldn't. Wealthy Wahhabists would simply leave Saudi and continue to fund extremist Islamic groups.

Query whether the US could not fail due to similar inter regional and "tribal" tensions between the liberal West Coast and the conservative farm belt states?
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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Actually it probably wouldn't. Wealthy Wahhabists would simply leave Saudi and continue to fund extremist Islamic groups.

Query whether the US could not fail due to similar inter regional and "tribal" tensions between the liberal West Coast and the conservative farm belt states?
The Wealthy Wahabbists usually are more interested in drinking, gambling and Hobbying when they are out of the country. We used to get some peripheral royal family members in to the hotel I used to work at.

They couldn't wait to order up bottles of scotch and dialing up the agencies. And if you go to Europe there are a hell of a lot more.

The fanatics are the tribesmen. And they don't travel. And wouldn't know how to run things. The nation would fall apart.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Don't they refer to themselves as the Nation of Islam?

It is as much a political movement as anything. A cult. Pretty much atkin to fascism including the Big Brother figure and removal of anything that shows actual history.
No they don't.
But perhaps you were trying to narrow the discussion to one very small sect in the sweep of a world religion.

From Wikipedia:"The Nation of Islam, abbreviated as NOI, is an African American political and religious movement, founded in Detroit, Michigan, United States, by Wallace D. Fard Muhammad on July 4, 1930." Their current leader urges the benefits of Scientology's Dianetics on its members.

This has as much relevance to the general religion of Islam as Mormonism has to Christianity in general. And the Nation of Islam your're so concerned about never had more than a tiny fraction of their membership.
 

Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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No they don't.
But perhaps you were trying to narrow the discussion to one very small sect in the sweep of a world religion.

From Wikipedia:"The Nation of Islam, abbreviated as NOI, is an African American political and religious movement, founded in Detroit, Michigan, United States, by Wallace D. Fard Muhammad on July 4, 1930." Their current leader urges the benefits of Scientology's Dianetics on its members.

This has as much relevance to the general religion of Islam as Mormonism has to Christianity in general. And the Nation of Islam your're so concerned about never had more than a tiny fraction of their membership.
When a group tries to bypass existing laws to implement Sharia law they are in effect trying to create there own nation. And it happens. They tried it in Ontario and we're rightly shut down. But there is a province in Indonesia as an example where despite constitutional protections Sharia law is enforced.

They are a political movement wrapped up in a cult. Until they go through a Reformation, remove the 7th century thinking, the misogynist, homophobic teachings are incompatible with a Liberal Western Democracy.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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Actually his point is sectarian violence between tribes and different sects would tear it apart. One thing that has been the trend over and over again once the strong man is gone the factions set to killing each other PDQ.

Personally I would love to see the Fall of the House of Saud. It would also result in funding ending for Wahabbism around the world.
The 'point' is still an empty and useless tautology. Without the the accepted organization of a government, any and all states would fail and fall into factional and regional distputes. It is having a government — be it a monarchy like the House of Saud, or federated local democracies like the union of Swiss cantons — that defines a state in the first place.

If a PoTUS managed to disrupt enough of the layers and functions of the machinery of American government and leave them in disrepair, it too could fail when the Strong Man passed on. It's one reason why wars of succession outnumber significant invasions over the course of history.
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
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Don't they refer to themselves as the Nation of Islam?

It is as much a political movement as anything. A cult. Pretty much atkin to fascism including the Big Brother figure and removal of anything that shows actual history.
You're talking about Protestant Fundamentalism in the US and their heavy involvement in politics and denial of history, evolution or anything else that doesn't fit their prejudices, right?
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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When a group tries to bypass existing laws to implement Sharia law they are in effect trying to create there own nation.
In Canada most of the religions here apply their own form of religious laws or rules to their own community on top of the laws of the Country. The claim that they then 'bypass' existing laws is nonsense, with the exception perhaps of Christians who believe in polygamy.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/40-sup...timeline-of-the-history-of-polygamy-in-canada

But you're not offended by that, correct?

For the most part, Canada doesn't have an issue with religions applying their own rules on top of Canadian laws.
https://www.cbabc.org/BarTalk/Features/In-this-Issue/June-2015/Religious-Legal-Systems-in-Canada
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
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You're talking about Protestant Fundamentalism in the US and their heavy involvement in politics and denial of history, evolution or anything else that doesn't fit their prejudices, right?
Yes I would put their interference and some policies with a religious cogitation in the same boat. It doesn't belong in any public forum. The lady in Kentucky who tried to deny gay marriage certificates should have been fired and barred from public service unless she signed an agreement not to allow her beliefs to color her duty.

I was heartened by the fact religion didn't really come up this time, despite Pence running.

Long way to go.

But I stand by stance. It is a cult. It just happens to be an old and successful one.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
28,989
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In Canada most of the religions here apply their own form of religious laws or rules to their own community on top of the laws of the Country. The claim that they then 'bypass' existing laws is nonsense, with the exception perhaps of Christians who believe in polygamy.
http://thechronicleherald.ca/40-sup...timeline-of-the-history-of-polygamy-in-canada

But you're not offended by that, correct?

For the most part, Canada doesn't have an issue with religions applying their own rules on top of Canadian laws.
https://www.cbabc.org/BarTalk/Features/In-this-Issue/June-2015/Religious-Legal-Systems-in-Canada
I want all religion out of gov't and public spaces. The Lord's Prayer and Friday Islamic services don't belong in schools. Catholic schools should not receive public funding.

I would even remove automatic tax free status from churches and religions. Let then register as charities and follow the rules. Beyond that pay taxes on income.

We should get past this reverence for religion. It's a choice. Just because they have been around for awhile shouldn't give them a pass anymore.

As for polygamists they should be arrested. And put away.
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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When a group tries to bypass existing laws to implement Sharia law they are in effect trying to create there own nation. And it happens. They tried it in Ontario and we're rightly shut down. But there is a province in Indonesia as an example where despite constitutional protections Sharia law is enforced.

They are a political movement wrapped up in a cult. Until they go through a Reformation, remove the 7th century thinking, the misogynist, homophobic teachings are incompatible with a Liberal Western Democracy.
A gross distortion and entire misrepresentation of what happened here.

If what may or may not be happening in one of the hundreds of Indonesian islands is relevant here in a thread about Trump then let's drag those Serbian Christian murderers into the discussion too. If a small population of Muslims characterizes the entire religion, then the Westboro Baptists are Christianity.

When you take responsibility for their murderous behaviour, and the beliefs they cite to justify it, then you'll have some pretext for 'demanding' that Muslims believe as you prefer. Or govern themselves as you dictate. When I was in Indonesia, it sure looked like a democracy, you know, people's choice and such. It was Christmas; Santa Claus was everywhere.
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PS. Did you really intend to exclude Harper's Conservatives, and us easterners from your Liberal Western Democracy? Just where is that particular place? Is it one of the 'democraciesy' that recently jailed homos, wouldn't let women own property or vote and still disenfranchises its indigenous and coloured populations?
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
28,989
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A gross distortion and entire misrepresentation of what happened here.

If what may or may not be happening in one of the hundreds of Indonesian islands is relevant here in a thread about Trump then let's drag those Serbian Christian murderers into the discussion too. If a small population of Muslims characterizes the entire religion, then the Westboro Baptists are Christianity.

When you take responsibility for their murderous behaviour, and the beliefs they cite to justify it, then you'll have some pretext for 'demanding' that Muslims believe as you prefer. Or govern themselves as you dictate. When I was in Indonesia, it sure looked like a democracy, you know, people's choice and such. It was Christmas; Santa Claus was everywhere.
--------------
PS. Did you really intend to exclude Harper's Conservatives, and us easterners from your Liberal Western Democracy? Just where is that particular place? Is it one of the 'democraciesy' that recently jailed homos, wouldn't let women own property or vote and still disenfranchises its indigenous and coloured populations?
We have a lot of work to do I agree. And we don't move forward by enabling a homophobic, misogynist belief system. Any belief system. Do we?
 

oldjones

CanBarelyRe Member
Aug 18, 2001
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We have a lot of work to do I agree. And we don't move forward by enabling a homophobic, misogynist belief system. Any belief system. Do we?
Giving others the tolerance we want for our imperfect selves and our clumsy attempts at understanding is exactly the sort of enabling we want to help us all move forward.

Pushing others back for any reason just slows our progress.
 

Frankfooter

dangling member
Apr 10, 2015
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I want all religion out of gov't and public spaces. The Lord's Prayer and Friday Islamic services don't belong in schools. Catholic schools should not receive public funding. .
I totally agree with that.
But you also can't tell people not to believe in their preference for invisible person in the sky.
(mine, if I had to choose, would be the flying spaghetti monster)
http://www.venganza.org/
 

Insidious Von

My head is my home
Sep 12, 2007
38,409
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And he's starting to go after abortion now as well.
It's like Captain Willard's line in Apocalypse Now, "I'm still in Saigon, I get weaker and every minute Charlie squats in the bush, he gets stronger".

Every minute politics overrides nation, Putin gets stronger. He has an entire wing of "information warriors" as part of the Russian military.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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There is an explicit US security guarantee protecting the House of Saud ....
If there was another choice other than Saud's family (which does enjoy their western privileges), the real hardliners, or chaos, the US would back them in a second. The alliance with Saud's crew has absolutely zero to do with support for a specific religious philosophy and has nothing to do with protecting the 'good' guys. It is quite simply an economic alliance to protect access to oil. It was the exact same with the Brits at the fall of the Ottoman empire.
 
Ashley Madison
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