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Trudeau Selfie With Terror Suspect

basketcase

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I don't either fuji. And will say so directly. Oppression must be fought. Just because they were English doesn't mean they were civilized. They oppressed. And so had to be fought. ....
Choosing to fight oppression by oppressing civilians on the other side is not moral. If the IRA had limited themselves to attacks on British military your argument would hold weight.

BTW. ISIS and AQ believe they are fighting the oppression of the West by attacking western civilians. Does that make them freedom fighters?
 

FAST

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By today's standards yes. By the standard of the time, no. Humanity has progressed in the past 70 years.
,..."Humanity has progressed in the past 70 years",...you are kidding,...right,...???

Ever read or watch the news lately,...???

FAST
 

basketcase

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basketcase

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Our friend Fuji will never support a peace agreement with any so call "terrorist" groups. ....
Peace agreements aren't possible until those groups renounce terrorism. Once they do and become purely political then peace can be achieved.
 

basketcase

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,..."Humanity has progressed in the past 70 years",...you are kidding,...right,...???

Ever read or watch the news lately,...???

FAST
At least in western morals we have. I'll agree that not everyone in the world has.
 

Butler1000

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Oct 31, 2011
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Do you consider ISIS to be 'freedom fighters'? The moment the IRA chose purely civilian targets they became terrorists.
No. Because they won't sue for you peace ever. And they are more atkin to a horde than anything else.

And the IRA went after military, police, gov't etc. They didn't specifically target civilians.

As in All wars there is no such thing as one without civilian casualties. Or do the hundreds of thousands killed in say Iraq not count.

Killing is killing. It's never good. But I'm willing to forgive in the pursuit of peace. The IRA did it. FARC did it after 52 years. Would you now start a war again? Because you can't let the hate and anger go?

You don't defeat your enemy by taking the means to fight. You win by taking their will to fight. And the best way to do that is to negotiate a peace.

Anything else is war mongering.
 

Butler1000

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At least in western morals we have. I'll agree that not everyone in the world has.
Maybe the populace does. But many in our present leadership don't. Especially in the USA. They will kill and not think twice about it. And lie to be able to. This is fact.

Until policy changes to prevent regime change from without then we actually don't get the high moral ground. Killing is killing. Bombing is bombing. Having a border and taxation right doesn't make you the legitimate arbiters of morals.
 

fuji

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No. Because they won't sue for you peace ever. And they are more atkin to a horde than anything else.
First, the ends don't justify the means. Blowing up civilians is terrorism and you are making yourself look pretty stupid by arguing that it isn't terrorism if it works. It's terrorism and is criminal and every civilized person has a duty to oppose it.

Second, Bin Laden did repeatedly enumerate his terms for peace: the US to withdraw its forces from the middle east, stop broadcasting its corrupting media into the region, stop selling its corrupting products into the region. Not really far off the IRA's original demands that the UK withdraw from Ireland.

Third, the IRA for decades insisted it would never make peace until Britain was out of Ireland. In the end the IRA lost: Britain is still there.

But none of that matters, win or lose, intentionally targeting and killing civilians is deeply immoral, illegal, and despicable.

And so are you for justifying the murder of children.

Really.

Andd the IRA went after military, police, gov't etc. They didn't specifically target civilians.
Yes they did. They detonated bombs in nightclubs and restaurants, public buses, and on the street. Their victims included children whose only crime was that they were protestant children.

As in All wars there is no such thing as one without civilian casualties.
Civilized people recognize the difference between civilians being inadvertently killed and intentionally killed, and furthermore expect belligerents to take steps to limit the inadvertent deaths. It's actually what the Geneva convention requires and anything else is a war crime.
 

Butler1000

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First, the ends don't justify the means. Blowing up civilians is terrorism and you are making yourself look pretty stupid by arguing that it isn't terrorism if it works. It's terrorism and is criminal and every civilized person has a duty to oppose it.

Second, Bin Laden did repeatedly enumerate his terms for peace: the US to withdraw its forces from the middle east, stop broadcasting its corrupting media into the region, stop selling its corrupting products into the region. Not really far off the IRA's original demands that the UK withdraw from Ireland.

Third, the IRA for decades insisted it would never make peace until Britain was out of Ireland. In the end the IRA lost: Britain is still there.

But none of that matters, win or lose, intentionally targeting and killing civilians is deeply immoral, illegal, and despicable.

And so are you for justifying the murder of children.

Really.



Yes they did. They detonated bombs in nightclubs and restaurants, public buses, and on the street. Their victims included children whose only crime was that they were protestant children.



Civilized people recognize the difference between civilians being inadvertently killed and intentionally killed, and furthermore expect belligerents to take steps to limit the inadvertent deaths. It's actually what the Geneva convention requires and anything else is a war crime.
Except when nations do it and say oops! It was an accident. We didn't mean it! Then what is it called?

And does it matter to the victims?

It's a crock. You can't prevent civilian casualties in a war. And whether or not it's declared a war depends on the perspective of people.

And whether or not someone is a terrorist or freedom fighter does as well.

I say history decides the labels. As it always has. I give the IRA the title of freedom fighter. You say terrorist.

And because it's an opinion based on perception We are both right.
 

SkyRider

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Much credit belongs to President Clinton who, despite strong protest from the U.K. and Fuji, granted a visa to allow Gerry Adams to enter the U.S. in 1994. History will show that President Clinton demonstrated real leadership and opened the door to negotiations that led to the Good Friday Agreement. Also, credit to Senator George Mitchell and his negotiating team. It takes reasonable and rational people of good faith, goodwill and good character (qualities sadly lacking in "kill them all" Fuji) to negotiate a peace agreement and make it work.

The Good Friday Agreement is based on 5 major pillars. Peace, reconciliation, human rights, democracy and disarmament. Credit must also go to the UDA, UVF, IRA and to the British government led by Prime Minister Tony Blair for the end to hostilities. Peace is only possible when all parties comply with the peace treaty, not by denouncing each other and yelling "baby killers".
 

SkyRider

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I give the IRA the title of freedom fighter.
Look at the last 100 years. In 1916, the entire island of Ireland was occupied and oppressed by the British and the Scot-Irish. The brave men who started the Easter Uprising knew they were going to die but they would die fighting for the independence of their country.

In 2016, 26 of the 32 Irish counties are independent and free of British rule. The 6 counties that make up Northern Ireland now has power sharing. Public bodies must demonstrate cross-community and equal opportunities. Long story short, Irish Catholics are no longer treat as second class citizens in Northern Ireland.

Last but not least,
"Recognise that the people of Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland must both agree, by separate referrenda, to a United Ireland by majority consent before it can take place, and that no other people have a right to vote in any such decision." The Brits will have no vote in a referendum on a united Ireland.
 

fuji

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Except when nations do it and say oops! It was an accident. We didn't mean it! Then what is it called?
If it's actually an accident? It's called an accident and it happens all the time. If it's actually intentional then it's called a war crime.

And does it matter to the victims?
It should, since there are likely to be FAR more civilian casualties when civilians are targeted.

It's a crock. You can't prevent civilian casualties in a war.
Of course you can't. But you can minimize them. And that's what the Geneva convention requires through the law of war concept called "proportionality".

Civilian casualties aren't a crime.

DISPROPORTIONATE civilian casualties are a crime.

Since you will no doubt misinterpret proportionality let me say right now that it's specifically whether the anticipated civilian casualties are proportional to the anticipated military advantage gained. Note carefully the word "anticipated", it's crucial to the legal concept both times it was used: anticipated casualties vs anticipated gain.

Blowing up a nightclub, killing children on the street, these things the IRA did had only anticipated civilian casualties and no anticipated military gain. That's terrorism.


And whether or not someone is a terrorist or freedom fighter does as well.
Nope. That's the kind of bullshit that terrorists say. It's not a matter of perspective. If you target civilians you are either a terrorist or a war criminal or both. We can debate the difference between a terrorist (typically non state actor) and a war criminal (typically a state actor) but either way is a vile crime.

I say history decides the labels.
Nope.


Let's take an example from a winning side I support: Irgun were Jewish terrorists, period. Even though they fought on the winning side and even though they were granted an amnesty. The attack on Deir Yassin was simply vile terrorism. Unarmed civilians were targeted. Surrendering civilians were lined up and murdered. There's absolutely no justification for that whatsoever, it was atrocious. The fact that Irgun later disarmed in exchange for an amnesty doesn't change the vile nature of that terrorist act.

IRA terrorist acts in the 1970s didn't later become acceptable because twenty years later the IRA disarmed.

As it always has. I give the IRA the title of freedom fighter. You say terrorist.
This is not a matter of opinion, you are simply wrong.
 

SkyRider

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IRA terrorist acts in the 1970s didn't later become acceptable because twenty years later the IRA disarmed.
Among reasonable, fair minded and rational people there is an acknowledgement that terrible atrocities were committed by both sides in the conflict. The Consultative Group was set up in 2000 to examine how best to deal with the legacy of the past. They filed their report in 2009.

Separate from the Consultative group, the report by Lord Saville released in June 2010 resulted in an apology by Prime Minister David Cameron for the murder of 14 peaceful unarmed Irish protesters in what is known as Bloody Sunday.

The IRA issued its peace statement (reproduced below) on July 28, 2005.

"The leadership of Óglaigh na hÉireann has formally ordered an end to the armed campaign. This will take effect from 4pm this afternoon.All IRA units have been ordered to dump arms. All Volunteers have been instructed to assist the development of purely political and democratic programmes through exclusively peaceful means. Volunteers must not engage in any other activities whatsoever.The IRA leadership has also authorised our representative to engage with the IICD to complete the process to verifiably put its arms beyond use in a way which will further enhance public confidence and to conclude this as quickly as possible.We have invited two independent witnesses, from the Protestant and Catholic churches, to testify to this.The Army Council took these decisions following an unprecedented internal discussion and consultation process with IRA units and Volunteers.We appreciate the honest and forthright way in which the consultation process was carried out and the depth and content of the submissions. We are proud of the comradely way in which this truly historic discussion was conducted.The outcome of our consultations show very strong support among IRA Volunteers for the Sinn Féin peace strategy.There is also widespread concern about the failure of the two governments and the unionists to fully engage in the peace process. This has created real difficulties.The overwhelming majority of people in Ireland fully support this process.They and friends of Irish unity throughout the world want to see the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement.Notwithstanding these difficulties our decisions have been taken to advance our republican and democratic objectives, including our goal of a united Ireland. We believe there is now an alternative way to achieve this and to end British rule in our country.It is the responsibility of all Volunteers to show leadership, determination and courage. We are very mindful of the sacrifices of our patriot dead, those who went to jail, Volunteers, their families and the wider republican base. We reiterate our view that the armed struggle was entirely legitimate.We are conscious that many people suffered in the conflict. There is a compelling imperative on all sides to build a just and lasting peace.The issue of the defence of nationalist and republican communities has been raised with us. There is a responsibility on society to ensure that there is no re-occurrence of the pogroms of 1969 and the early 1970s.There is also a universal responsibility to tackle sectarianism in all its forms.The IRA is fully committed to the goals of Irish unity and independence and to building the Republic outlined in the 1916 Proclamation.We call for maximum unity and effort by Irish republicans everywhere.We are confident that by working together Irish republicans can achieve our objectives.Every Volunteer is aware of the import of the decisions we have taken and all Óglaigh are compelled to fully comply with these orders.There is now an unprecedented opportunity to utilise the considerable energy and goodwill which there is for the peace process. This comprehensive series of unparalleled initiatives is our contribution to this and to the continued endeavours to bring about independence and unity for the people of Ireland."The IICD confirmed in its final report of September 2005 that the IRA had decommissioned all of its weapons.

Martin McGuinness, George W. Bush and Ian Paisley in December 2007​

The definitive end of The Troubles and thus of the Peace Process came in 2007.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP] Following the St Andrews Agreement of October 2006, andMarch 2007 elections, the Democratic Unionist Party and Sinn Féin formed a government in May 2007. In July 2007, the British Army formally ended
 

fuji

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Among reasonable, fair minded and rational people there is an acknowledgement that terrible atrocities were committed by both sides in the conflict.
That doesn't excuse your support for terrorism.

Dance all you want, you hold vile views that are against everything Canada stands for.

The deal with the IRA scumbags was made to end the violence, and the end of violence was a good thing. But the pragmatic need to make that deal doesn't mean the IRA terrorism was any less odious, nor is your support of our any less disgusting.
 

SkyRider

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That doesn't excuse your support for terrorism.

Dance all you want, you hold vile views that are against everything Canada stands for.

The deal with the IRA scumbags was made to end the violence, and the end of violence was a good thing. But the pragmatic need to make that deal doesn't mean the IRA terrorism was any less odious, nor is your support of our any less disgusting.
It's amazing how much bullshit you post.

I support the Good Friday Agreement because it ended terrorism by all parties.
 

SkyRider

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"General John de Chastelain is a retired Canadian Forces officer, the former head of Canada's military and former ambassador to the U.S. He has also played a key role in the Northern Ireland peace process and in crafting the Good Friday accord, which created a new legislature for Northern Ireland."

U.S. President Clinton and Senator Mitchell also played important roles in the crafting of the Good Friday Agreement.
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/bi...icy-achievement-says-aide-187650671-237560151

So, I'm in good company when I say I support the Good Friday Agreement.
 
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