An Urgent History Lesson in Diplomacy with Russia

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,768
5,336
113
An Urgent History Lesson in Diplomacy with Russia

by Renee Parsons


As prospects for peace appear dim in places like the Ukraine, Syria, Yemen, Iraq and Afghanistan and now with a renewed bombing of Libya, the President of the United States (and his heiress apparent) continue to display an alarming lack of understanding of the responsibilities as the nation’s highest elected officer. As has been unsuccessfully litigated, Article II of the Constitution does not give the President right to start war; only Congress is granted that authority (See Article I, Section 8).

So for the nation’s Chief Executive Officer to willy-nilly arbitrarily decide to bomb here and bomb there and bomb everywhere in violation of the Constitution might be sufficient standard for that CEO to be regarded as a war criminal. Surely, consistently upping the stakes with a strong US/NATO military presence in the Baltics with the US Navy regularly cruising the Black and Baltic Seas, accompanied by a steady stream of confrontational language and picking a fight with a nuclear-armed Russia may not be the best way to achieve peace.

In 1980, there was strong opinion among liberals that Ronald Reagan was close to, if not a direct descendant of the Neanderthals and that he stood for everything that Democrats opposed – and his eight years in office confirmed much of that sentiment. In those days, many lefties believed that the Democrats were still the party of FDR and JFK but today, the undeniable illusion is that the Dems are now the party of war and big money and not the political party some of us signed up for as new voters.

Ronald Reagan (R) was elected President as an ardent anti-communist who routinely referred to Russia as the ‘evil empire’, a fierce free market proponent of balanced budgets who in two terms in office never balanced a budget, a President who dramatically slashed domestic social programs even though his family benefited from FDR’s New Deal and whose foreign policy strategy was to ‘build-up to build-down’ (a $44 billion.20% increase in one year, 1982-1983) so as to force the Russians to the table. Reagan, who was ready to engage in extensive personal diplomacy, was an unlikely peacemaker yet he achieved an historic accomplishment in the nuclear arms race that is especially relevant today as NATO/US are reintroducing nuclear weapons into eastern Europe.

After having ascended to the USSR’s top leadership position in March, 1985, an intelligent and assertive Soviet General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev was eager to improve relations with the United States but thought Reagan a “political dinosaur” who was regarded by much of the American public as a ‘trigger-happy cowboy”.

Even before the American President and Russian leader met, NATO ministers in 1979 had unanimously adopted a strategy that included arms control negotiations and a modernization of its current missile system as Russia deployed its updated, most lethal generation of the SS 20 Saber missiles. With an improved maximum range, an increased area covered by multiple warheads and a more improved accuracy than earlier versions, it was a missile that could easily reach western Europe with terrifying results.

As formal talks began between the US, Russia and NATO in 1981, massive anti nuclear weapon demonstrations were taking place in the US and Europe adding a political urgency for both countries to initiate discussions.

Screen Shot 2016-03-03 at 5.05.31 PM-1

At that time, Reagan announced a proposal to abandon the Pershing I missiles in exchange for elimination of the SS 20 which Gorbachev rejected.

By 1983, the Soviets walked out and there were no talks in 1984 until a resumption in March, 1985. US Secretary of State George Shultz had continued to meet with Russian Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin since 1983. Shultz suggested that the President meet with Dobrynin who had expressed his frustration to Shultz that they were not dealing with the ‘big issues” and was rumored to be leaving his diplomatic post due to the Americans unwillingness to negotiate. Two weeks earlier Russian Foreign Minister Andrei Gromyko had publicly suggested a summit between the two nuclear power countries.

According to published reports at the time, while most of the White House staff opposed the Dobrynin meeting, Reagan gave Shultz the green light.

By the time Reagan first met Gorbachev in 1985 in Geneva, the President was already driven by a deep instinctive fear that modern civilization was on the brink of a biblical nuclear Armageddon that could end the human race.

According to Jack Matlock who served as Reagan’s senior policy coordinator for Russia and later US Ambassador to Russia in his book, “Reagan and Gorbachev: How the Cold War Ended,” one of Reagan’s pre-meeting notes to himself read “avoid any demand for regime change.” From the beginning, one of Reagan’s goals was to establish a relationship that would be able to overcome whatever obstacles or conflicts may arise with the goal of preventing a thermonuclear war.

The meeting began with a traditional oval table diplomatic dialogue with Reagan, who had no foreign policy experience, lecturing on the failings of the “despised” Russian system and support for the SDI (Star Wars) program. Gorbachev, who arrived looking like a spy complete with KGB-issue hat and overcoat, responded by standing up to Reagan (“you are not a prosecutor and I am not the accused”) and was visibly irritated “why do you repeat the same thing (on the SDI); stop this rubbish.”

After a lengthy personal, private conversation, it became obvious that the two men had struck a cord of mutual respect with Reagan recognizing that the youthful articulate Gorbachev was not the out- moded Politburo politician of his predecessors. At the conclusion of Geneva, a shared trust necessary to begin sober negotiations to ban nuclear weapons had been established. Both were well aware that the consequences of nuclear war would be a devastation to mankind, the world’s greatest environmental disaster. At the end of their Geneva meeting, Reagan and Gorbachev agreed that “nuclear war can never be won and must never be fought.”

During their October, 1986 Reykjavik meeting, the real possibility of a permanent, forever ban on all nuclear weapons appeared possible until Gorbachev insisted on the elimination of SDI’s (Star Wars) from the final agreement and Reagan walked away. Gorbachev relented; saving the potential long range treaty from failure and ultimately, the SDI sunk under the weight of its own impossibility. While the summit ended with measured progress, Reagan’s stubbornness on SDI represented a significant lost opportunity that would never come again.

In April, 1987 with Secretary Shultz in Moscow, Gorbachev proposed the elimination of U.S. and Soviet shorter-range missiles and by June, NATO foreign ministers announced support for the global elimination of all U.S. and Soviet intermediate-range and shorter-range missile systems. In June, all the participating parties were in agreement as Reagan agreed to eliminate all U.S. and Soviet shorter-range missile systems.

As high level negotiations continued, German Chancellor Helmut Kohl added icing to the cake, in August, 1987 by announcing that Germany, on its own, would dismantle all of its 72 Pershing I missiles that Reagan-Gorbachev had earlier been unable to eliminate.

In December of 1987, Soviet General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev arrived in Washington DC to sign the bilateral Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces (including Short Range Missiles) known as the INF Treaty. The Treaty eliminated 2,611 ground launched ballistic and cruise missile systems with a range of between 500 and 5500 kilometers (310 -3,400 miles). Paris is 2,837 (1,762 miles) kilometers from Moscow.

In May 1988, the INF Treaty was ratified by the US Senate in a surprising vote of 93 – 5 (four Republicans and one Democrat opposed) and by May, 1991, all Pershing I missiles in Europe had been dismantled. Verification of Compliance of the INF Treaty, delayed because of the USSR breakup, was completed in December, 2001.

At an outdoor press briefing during their last meeting together and after the INF was implemented, Reagan put his arm around Gorbachev. A reporter asked if he still believed in the ‘evil empire’ and Reagan answered ‘no.” When asked why, he replied “I was talking about another time, another era.”

After the INF Treaty was implemented, right wing opponents and columnists like George Will attacked Reagan as a pawn for “Soviet propaganda” and being an “apologist for Gorbachev.”

Some things never change.

Whether the Treaty could have been more far-reaching is questionable given what we now know of Reagan’s mental deterioration and yet despite their differences, there is no indication that during the six year effort the two men treated each other with anything other than esteem and courtesy.

In 1990, Secretary General Mikhail Gorbachev won the Nobel Peace Prize while President Reagan, largely credited with ending the Cold War and bringing nuclear stability to the world and back from a nuclear confrontation, was not nominated.

As the current US President and Nobel Peace Prize winner prepares to leave office with a record of a Tuesday morning kill list, unconscionable drone attacks on civilians, initiating bombing campaigns where there were none prior to his election and, of course, taunting Russian President Vladimir Putin with unsubstantiated allegations, the US-backed NATO has scheduled AEGIS anti ballistic missile shields to be constructed in Romania and Poland, challenging the integrity of INF Treaty for the first time in almost thirty years.

In what may shed new light on NATO/US build-up in eastern Europe, Russian Foreign Secretary Sergei Lavrov denied US charges in June, 2015 that Russia had violated the Treaty and that the US had “failed to provide evidence of Russian breaches.” Commenting on US plans to deploy land-based missiles in Europe as a possible response to the alleged “Russian aggression” in the Ukraine, Lavrov warned that ‘‘building up militarist rhetoric is absolutely counterproductive and harmful.’ Russian Deputy Defense Minister Anatoly Antonov suggested the United States was leveling accusations against Russia in order to justify its own military plans.

In early August, the US Department of Energy’s National Nuclear Security Administration authorized the final development phase (prior to actual production in 2020) of the B61-21 nuclear bomb at a cost of $350 – $450 billion. A thermonuclear weapon with the capability of reaching Europe and Moscow, the B61-21 is part of President Obama’s $1 trillion request for modernizing the US aging and outdated nuclear weapon arsenal.

Isn’t it about time for the President to do something to earn that Peace Prize?
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,010
8
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
TLDR: USA bad. Russia good.

(No explanation given for why Russia can drop bombs willy nilly without being bad like the USA.)
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
31,004
5,143
113
Actually despite I bit too much pro Russian sentiment and a touch of champagne socialism in the writing it's a fairly accurate assessment.

And why the hell do we continue to press on Russia's borders anyway? It serves no purpose.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,010
8
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
Actually despite I bit too much pro Russian sentiment and a touch of champagne socialism in the writing it's a fairly accurate assessment.

And why the hell do we continue to press on Russia's borders anyway? It serves no purpose.
We don't press on Russia's borders.

Unless through some sort of double speak you mean that preventing Russia from invading other countries is pressing on Russia's borders.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
31,004
5,143
113
We don't press on Russia's borders.

Unless through some sort of double speak you mean that preventing Russia from invading other countries is pressing on Russia's borders.
After the wall fell there was an agreement not to have former Warsaw pact nations join NATO. And then they allowed it.

That's the equivalent of Cuba. And the USA them moved arms and missiles into those nations.

That's the same as the Cuban Missile Crisis.

And then there was possibly interference in the Ukrainian Elections.

Either way at this point they should keep a hard line but let Crimea go. Russia does have a historical claim to it.

I'm no Putin Apologist but the USA has been ignoring the security concerns of Russia for decades, as advised by the War Hawks who thought they had won the Cold War and could operate with imputiny. They poked the Bear and now he is awake.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
31,004
5,143
113
Please explain why you think Russia has any say whatsoever what threat countries do.

"Allowed"
NATO allowed some of the former Warsaw Pact nations join. Despite assurances they wouldn't. They ran the club. They could have said no.

Instead they pressed ahead. And Russia saw it as a threat. Add in military em placements and yes there is a legit security beef.

The end of the cold war was supposed to bring about more peace. Instead the decided to just go ahead and ignore obvious issues that could lead to further mistrust and antagonization.

The War Hawks ignored a real chance for peace because they don't make money that way.

And now they are heading for Clinton. What does that say about her plans for Russia and the world.
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
31,004
5,143
113
Again, can you explain why Russia would or should have any say in what Poland decided to do?
It's called not going back on your word in a delicate dance of diplomacy. This was Sabre Rattling. Russia of course doesn't have the right. But NATO had the obligation to live up to its promise. And didn't. That's real politic.

So when they get nervous and do things like take and secure Crimea, it's inevitable due to push back on their part. No different than a blockade to prevent Soviet missles in Cuba.

They had a chance for peace. Instead they Ignored. And probably contributed to the mood of the Russian people to put Putin in office.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,010
8
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
It's called not going back on your word in a delicate dance of diplomacy. This was Sabre Rattling. Russia of course doesn't have the right. But NATO had the obligation to live up to its promise. And didn't. That's real politic.

So when they get nervous and do things like take and secure Crimea, it's inevitable due to push back on their part. No different than a blockade to prevent Soviet missles in Cuba.

They had a chance for peace. Instead they Ignored. And probably contributed to the mood of the Russian people to put Putin in office.
Sorry but I still don't understand why you think Russia even had a say in what Poles do.

It's like your have some implicit belief that Russia has some rightful imperialist role to play that we should accept.

As for Ukraine, Russia appears to be preparing to move beyond Crimea in a new military offensive. Putin recently boasted that the Russian military could be in Kiev in two weeks. Does your belief in Russian imperialism justify that as well?
 

Butler1000

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2011
31,004
5,143
113
I'm sorry you don't understand fuji. Perhaps if you did a bit more reading and research into the history. And maybe more on diplomacy. Then maybe you would have the background needed to understand the issue.

At least you are finally willing to admit your lack of knowledge as to why it would have been better not to admit them into NATO. It's a difficult and nuanced position involving walking a finer line than the "screw you, your down Russia, so we will kick you and threaten you as opposed to helping you" strategy that Clinton and Bush and Obama tried. But once you see that It's ok to at least try diplomacy before the gunboats(and keep the engines warm) then it will make sense.

But trying not to kill people usually does.
 

mandrill

Well-known member
Aug 23, 2001
77,948
94,543
113
The old "NATO betrayed Russia" crap has been discredited so long ago, I have forgotten all the reasons why Danmand's leftist bullshit is silly. I read it all the first time through in 2014 and you can google it and look up all the diplomatic folderol. But IIRC, no such promise was ever made to Russia or anyone else.

And the Baltics, Poland and Ukraine are absolutely terrified of Russia and are begging for protection. So any "deals" - that never happened anyway - are off the table now.

No one is "threatening" Russia. On the contrary, Putin has an expansionist super-nationalist agenda and ideology and if NATO ever let it be known that it would NOT back the Latvians, Poles and Ukes, it would take Vlad about 3 months to re establish the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact in their old borders. He would then be in a position to challenge the West directly and re start the Cold War.

In fact, here's a link you can start off by reading - Aleksandr Dugin. He plays Goebbels to Putin's Hitler, btw.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
 

danmand

Well-known member
Nov 28, 2003
46,768
5,336
113
The old "NATO betrayed Russia" crap has been discredited so long ago, I have forgotten all the reasons why Danmand's leftist bullshit is silly. I read it all the first time through in 2014 and you can google it and look up all the diplomatic folderol. But IIRC, no such promise was ever made to Russia or anyone else.

And the Baltics, Poland and Ukraine are absolutely terrified of Russia and are begging for protection. So any "deals" - that never happened anyway - are off the table now.

No one is "threatening" Russia. On the contrary, Putin has an expansionist super-nationalist agenda and ideology and if NATO ever let it be known that it would NOT back the Latvians, Poles and Ukes, it would take Vlad about 3 months to re establish the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact in their old borders. He would then be in a position to challenge the West directly and re start the Cold War.

In fact, here's a link you can start off by reading - Aleksandr Dugin. He plays Goebbels to Putin's Hitler, btw.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
Methink you should limit your postings to discussions about Hitler's, sorry, Putins love life. The promise to not expand Nato eastward is well documented.
 

fuji

Banned
Jan 31, 2005
80,010
8
0
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
is.gd
I'm sorry you don't understand fuji. Perhaps if you did a bit more reading and research into the history. And maybe more on diplomacy. Then maybe you would have the background needed to understand the issue.

At least you are finally willing to admit your lack of knowledge as to why it would have been better not to admit them into NATO. It's a difficult and nuanced position involving walking a finer line than the "screw you, your down Russia, so we will kick you and threaten you as opposed to helping you" strategy that Clinton and Bush and Obama tried. But once you see that It's ok to at least try diplomacy before the gunboats(and keep the engines warm) then it will make sense.

But trying not to kill people usually does.
Let me make a stronger statement:

It's none of Russia's business what Poland does. None.

Russia's historic aggressive empire building in Eastern Europe was illegal, unethical, and egregious. The fact that Soviet tanks once rolled into Warsaw and subjugated the country by force DOES NOT give the modern Russia any say in the matter.

In fact, Russia should apologize for its historic aggression. It was abusive and destructive to its neighbors during the Soviet period.

Since Putin appears to be trying to have another go at it, the right thing is for the world to unite against him and shut down his malicious intentions.
 

eznutz

Active member
Jul 17, 2007
2,394
0
36
Democrats’ Tactic of Accusing Critics of Kremlin Allegiance Has Long, Ugly History in U.S.

by Glenn Greenwald

A FREQUENT WEAPON FOR DEMOCRATS in the 2016 election is to publicly malign those they regard as critics and adversaries as Russia sympathizers, Putin stooges, or outright agents of the Kremlin. To put it mildly, this is not a new tactic in U.S. political discourse, and it’s worth placing it in historical context. That’s particularly true given how many people have now been targeted with this attack.

Strongly insinuating that the GOP nominee, Donald Trump, has nefarious, possibly treasonous allegiances to Moscow has migrated from Clinton-loyal pundits into the principal theme of the Clinton campaign itself. “The depth of Trump’s relationship with the Kremlin is revealing itself by the day,” her website announced yesterday, and vital “questions” must be answered “about Trump’s cozy relationship with Russia.”

THERE ARE SO MANY LEVELS OF IRONY to the Democrats’ reliance on this ugly tactic. To begin with, one presidential candidate who actually has significant, questionable ties to Russia is named . . .
Hillary Clinton.

As The New York Times detailed in 2015, Hillary and her husband Bill were at the center of a deal that “gave the Russians control of one-fifth of all uranium production capacity in the United States.” Those responsible for engineering that deal gave millions of dollars to the Clinton Foundation, which “were not publicly disclosed by the Clintons, despite an agreement Mrs. Clinton had struck with the Obama White House to publicly identify all donors.” Hillary herself approved the deal as Secretary of State, while Bill personally “received $500,000 for a Moscow speech from a Russian investment bank with links to the Kremlin that was promoting Uranium One stock.”

BUT BY FAR THE GREATEST IRONY in all of this is that Democrats have now explicitly adopted the exact smears that were used by the Far Right for decades to demonize liberals and the left as disloyal Kremlin stooges. For the entire second half of the 20th century, any Americans who opposed U.S. proxy wars with Russia, or advocated arms control deals with them, or generally desired less conflict, were branded as Useful Idiots of the Kremlin, loyal to Moscow, controlled by Russian leaders. Democrats have taken this script – one of the most shameful and destructive in American history – and have made it the centerpiece of their 2016 presidential campaign.
 

Insidious Von

My head is my home
Sep 12, 2007
40,331
7,652
113
Yes Russia could be in Kiev if they want to, but Kharkiv did not fall under rebel control. A Russian invasion without Kharkiv, is going to be very bloody. Stalin's forced collectivization and the widespread famine that followed is still fresh in Ukranian minds. They are not about to give up their sovereignty without a bloody fight.

And Russia has no claim to Crimea, it is Tatar land.
 
Ashley Madison
Toronto Escorts