Small claims court question?

[wazup]

This is separate from my other litigation thread, got a couple issues this summer.

Needed a seasonal job this summer and a change from my regular job so I approached a landscape supply company to do their deliveries, a verbal agreement was reached, did not work out for me at all. He promised a bunch of hours that didn't materialize and a few other promises.

I'm out over 2 grand with the truck rental, ins., etc. He wants to pay considerably less.

Question is do I go for the amount of the verbal agreement or the amount I am out since I have actual receipts for them. I have already emailed him with a compromise, meet in the middle type of deal and he is avoiding me, not answering emails etc. I have also started audio taping my calls to them.

Do I have to submit an actual invoice and wait a specific amount of time to start litigation, the email was an informal offer. It's not worth paying a paralegal.

 

[wazup]

Dude, what are you asking on an escort review board for? There, I already asked it so nobody else has to.

 

[HAMSTER INSPECTOR]

Sounds like a no win situation for you. Try to work it out if you can. Less is better than nothing. Try to make him understand that you need this money.

 

[huckfinn]

I think it would be prudent to issue an invoice, and on the invoice reference your verbal agreement of x date, and the terms and conditions of your verbal agreement.

Give him 30 days to pay, and mention late payments will accrue interest at 2% compounded monthly. You might consider sending it via registered mail or something so you have proof it was delivered to him.

That way, if it does go to Small Claims, at least you have something because they will surely ask if you sent him an invoice. I'm not sure taping conversations will help, unless of course he knows you are doing it.

 

[wazup]

I think it would be prudent to issue an invoice, and on the invoice reference your verbal agreement of x date, and the terms and conditions of your verbal agreement.

Give him 30 days to pay, and mention late payments will accrue interest at 2% compounded monthly. You might consider sending it via registered mail or something so you have proof it was delivered to him.

That way, if it does go to Small Claims, at least you have something because they will surely ask if you sent him an invoice. I'm not sure taping conversations will help, unless of course he knows you are doing it.

I thought phone convos were legal as long as one person knew they were being taped, me. Good point about registered mail. I found this, can it be used in court.

The Criminal Code, R.S.C. 1985, c. C-46 [Criminal Code] imposes a general prohibition on interception (recording) of private communications, but then provides an exception where one of the parties to the private communication consents to the interception of that communication. Thus, broadly speaking, Canadians can legally record their own conversations with other people, but not other peoples' conversations that they are not involved in.

 

[james t kirk]

Off hand, you have nothing in writing, so good luck with that. You have your word against his. Why should a judge believe you any more than he should believe your foe.

Plus, looking at it from the other side, you stated that he promised all kinds of hours that didn't materialize. So, business changed for him and he was not in the position to offer you business. Happens all the time. He's not obligated to give you work if the work doesn't exist. Sounds to me as it was an "if and when needed" sort of deal. Well, he didn't need you as it turned out. Being in business for yourself means assuming risk. You risk and sometimes you win and you profit and sometimes you lose and, well, you lose.

I think you would be better off to walk away and learn from your experience. In the future, "get it in writing". Plus 2 grand does not seem worth all the hassle of small claims court.

I'm not a lawyer (so jump all over me), but others on here are. But I deal with contracts with my clients every minute of every day and I can assure you that clients change their needs for my services all the time. Some go more. Some go less. Such is life (at least for me.) Most clients I have, I value, so I work with them with respect to helping them with their issues and needs because I know down the road that they will come back to me.

 

[explorerzip]

"a verbal agreement was reached"

A very good lesson to always get things in writing even if it's just a quick job.

 

[wazup]

If I send him a bill for the verbal agreement amount, is that still not an outstanding invoice if there is no agreement to back it up. How does he go about not paying it?

 

[james t kirk]

If I send him a bill for the verbal agreement amount, is that still not an outstanding invoice if there is no agreement to back it up. How does he go about not paying it?

I suspect he'll just throw it in the blue bin.

I don't know about your world, but in my world, we don't open a job without a contract, or at least a Purchase Order. Since you have neither, it begs the question, "what are you billing against?"

If he gets ambitious, I suppose he could take the time to send you your invoice back along with a note that there is no contract between the two of you.

Good luck.

I think you're going to need it.

 

[wazup]

I have invoices from me doing the deliveries, he owes me something, I'll send him an invoice, then a small claims court document.

I did do some deliveries, maybe I didn't mention that, so I am owed money, just a matter of how much, would a judge meet in the middle type of thing?

 

[Aardvark154]

An oral contract is a valid contract in Canada as in the U.S.A. and other Common Law jurisdictions. However, as others have already posted the problem is enforcement of the contract unless there is a third party witness to the oral contract or better several witnesses.

Hence always better to have it reduced to writing.

 

[huckfinn]

I have invoices from me doing the deliveries, he owes me something, I'll send him an invoice...?

I would start with this......and wait for payment before you proceed further. Hopefully he'll cover at least that.

If he pays it.....that might help substantiate there was some sort of contract.

 

[wazup]

I'm going to issue an invoice with the totals, I have also made out a detailed description of the verbal contract. Should I keep the details brief and only get into them if it goes to court?

Plus I made a compromising offer through email, the invoice will be for more, would a judge look at this in my favor or is it irrelevant? Plus the amount he wants to pay me isn't a livable wage, works out to 80$ a day.

 

[dirkd101]

There's no harm in issuing an invoice to him. In this case you have nothing to lose. I myself might try for a partial payment, a fraction of what you think you are owed. The reason being, if he pays, you at least recoup some of the money you feel you are owed, it shows some sort of an acknowledgment on his part to a verbal agreement held between you both and then you can issue an invoice for the rest. If he doesn't pay the rest, you at least can show that he paid some of the amount and this would go a long way in court in backing up your argument of a verbal contract between you.

On the topic of recording a conversation. Yes, this is a one party consent, as you are one part of the conversation. If you can get him to admit to the verbal contract this would benefit you.

A valuable lesson should be learned from this. While a verbal agreement (contract) is fine with family and friends, always get something down in writing, dated and signed by both parties. This doesn't have to be written up by a lawyer, just by you, with terms agreed to by both parties. Always make at least two copies, so that you each get one.

If you have nothing more than a verbal agreement and he ignores your invoices, then I wouldn't waste my time in small claims court, where even if you end up there, there's a good chance he won't pay you anyways if you win.

 

[explorerzip]

While a verbal agreement (contract) is fine with family and friends,

IMO, you should have something written down especially when dealing with family and friends and when there's money involved. If you're not willing to go through that trouble, then money given to friends and family should be treated as a gift.


Relationships can be ruined over minor issues like this.

 

[Cobra Enorme]

this is why all my deals are done through emails. as soon as someone says to call them, i say 'lets do this through email, i hate taking notes' make it a habit in your dealings from now on.

 

[dirkd101]

IMO, you should have something written down especially when dealing with family and friends and when there's money involved. If you're not willing to go through that trouble, then money given to friends and family should be treated as a gift.


Relationships can be ruined over minor issues like this.

I full agree with you explorerzip, especially if your family isn't known for being trustworthy, it is your best safeguard, but still doesn't get you your money back with any guarantee.

 

[Keebler Elf]

If I send him a bill for the verbal agreement amount, is that still not an outstanding invoice if there is no agreement to back it up. How does he go about not paying it?

He simply denies there was ever any agreement. Rule #1 of not paying your bills... Deny, Deny, Deny.

 

[TeeJay]

You seriously want to walk into a court claiming despite not having a written contract a former employer owes you for work you did not do (since hours never given)
Are you serious???

Obv no biz owner can predict how busy he will be so how can you even joke about guarantee hours
And why would you rent a truck if not working lol

You are not supposed to pass a bill like that to an employer anyways, it would be YOUR expense come tax time

 

[wazup]

I'm owed money, just a matter of how much.