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Goodwill Closing

Occasionally

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May 22, 2011
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idiot, bad management caused the failure of Goodwill, not workers salaries that are barely over minimum wage
Businesses fail for a number of reasons. Employees are often part of it.

When business stinks, it's up to both low level, middle level and top level management to fix it. Expecting management to solve everything is not feasible.

But we don't know the exact details. Maybe the front line workers had great ideas to help the balance sheet, but management shot down the ideas. Maybe Management had great ideas, but the workers didn't want to do it. Maybe a bit of both.
 

Occasionally

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May 22, 2011
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for the most part you post drivel, but you are an expert in articulating stereotypes...anything else , meh..
Whether you like it or not, stereotypes often are true to an extent. That's why they are stereotypes. Nothing in life is equal despite what PC people say. That's why middle eastern people are stereotype as terrorists, while Scandanavians are not. How often do you hear about a Swede or Dane causing trouble in the world? Ok, there was that serial killer 3 years ago. What else? hardly anything. That's not to say every middle eastern person is a bomb tosser or every Swede is 100% law abiding, but facts are facts. You have to live with what people do and the image they portray to the world.

Compare blue collar strikes (automotive and postal workers are the best) to strikes by nurses, pilots, paramedics etc..... Very different.

Heck, have you seen how pilots have protested? They dress up in uniform and simply walk in a quiet group. No yelling, no preventing customers from boarding planes, none of that BS. Very professional.
 

benstt

Well-known member
Jan 20, 2004
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They could breakeven too if they increased the price of their stuff a tiny amount.
Wouldn't the right answer be to set the price to maximize sales revenue? There was some noise that the pricing was out of whack, so some reductions might have moved more sales.
 

SkyRider

Banned
Mar 31, 2009
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Wouldn't the right answer be to set the price to maximize sales revenue? There was some noise that the pricing was out of whack, so some reductions might have moved more sales.
Reduce the price. Sure, if it increases the volume. But, we don't know for sure if it will increase volume. On the other hand reducing expenses would definitely work. I'm assuming rent is a fixed expense so the only other major expense are salaries.

Or, close the unprofitable stores but that would still leave people unemployed.
 

FAST

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Mar 12, 2004
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They could breakeven too if they increased the price of their stuff a tiny amount.

Would people shopping there complain so much or customers leave in droves if the books they sold there for $2 each were increased to $2.25 or $2.50? (that alone is about a 10-25% increase).
In simple economic terms, that would work, BUT, there is a union involved.

So,..."hey, they just raised the prices, lets go on strike for more",...

I know,...I'm obviously anti union,...but from personal ,...real life experiences,...I have every reason to have a good hate on for unions.

FAST
 

Polaris

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Oct 11, 2007
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hornyville
No matter what side of the political spectrum people are on, this was an interesting perspective on capital and labour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century.
That Thomas Piketty book is a very important, even thought I have not read it myself.

It made a great impression on to the world.

However, after a while, serious counter-arguements appeared and were very compelling as well.

After a while, I concluded just by the noise created, the jury is still out.

Sure, I can believe capital and returns tend to flow upwards, as like European society you don't move from one class to another up or down. However, in the new world like America, or even Canada, capital could have flowed upwards, but everyone had a chance. The American dream. Even in non-modern societies such as China, people still moved up and down.

Since I am here as a minority Canadian, I want the chance to go up and down. Someone like Thomas Piketty, I strongly suspect he just everyone to stay in their own class, except re-distribute income downward somewhat.
 

explorerzip

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2006
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Good for you for not collecting EI, though you do seem somewhat bitter about never having collected it, like it's some lost right or something with you. I've never collected it either (knock on wood) and don't want to. That's the way it should be.
It's called Employment Insurance for a reason. You pay into it hoping that you will never, ever need to use it. You can feel "bitter" about paying home, auto, life and health insurance, but one day it might save you from financial ruin.
 

explorerzip

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Jul 27, 2006
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But I completely disagree with you with respect to the teaching of math. You are so beyond wrong in my opinion. Everything in this world is based on math. Absolutely everything. In Grade 9, there is no way to tell which kids are going to go on to having a career that requires math skills and which ones will not. But our society is 100 percent dependent on those who can do math. (And quadratic equations are pretty simple, you want fun, try partial differential equations with non homogenous boundary conditions, or Laplace transforms, or Quantum Mechanics. Then we'll talk.) Besides, when I was in High School, they had 3 different math levels. Math for those intending on using it (maybe) in University, those who aimed for Community college, and those who needed it to figure out a tip on a restaurant bill (which many of my teacher friends shockingly cannot do).

There are lots of useless courses in High School (like Yoga, or religion, or various artsie fartsie course which should be dropped like a hot potato. Math is not one of them. If anything, it should be tougher.
IMO, how they teach math in school (at least when I went to HS) is part of the problem. I recall all my math courses being extremely dry and boring with no attempt at showing students how it applied to the real world. The funny thing is that I recall my uncle telling me a story of how his math teachers showing students how to play black jack (or some other card game) to demonstrate how probability works. Interesting how we know call that 'gamification.'

The 3 levels or streams you are referring to used to be called Advanced for university students, General for college or trade school level and Basic for everyone else. The sad thing is that ALL students no matter what level they take need the basic financial skills especially budgeting no matter what they choose as a career. As far as I know, they de-streamed (or removed advanced, general and basic) in grade 9 around the same time grade 13 was eliminated. That also create the 'double cohort' problem where kids were graduating the 5 year and 4 year HS program and applying to post-secondary at the same time.
 

explorerzip

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Jul 27, 2006
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In simple economic terms, that would work, BUT, there is a union involved.

So,..."hey, they just raised the prices, lets go on strike for more",...

I know,...I'm obviously anti union,...but from personal ,...real life experiences,...I have every reason to have a good hate on for unions.

FAST
It also depends on the demographics of the typical Goodwill shopper. Can that market bear an across the board price increase?
 

explorerzip

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2006
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Businesses fail for a number of reasons. Employees are often part of it.

When business stinks, it's up to both low level, middle level and top level management to fix it. Expecting management to solve everything is not feasible.

But we don't know the exact details. Maybe the front line workers had great ideas to help the balance sheet, but management shot down the ideas. Maybe Management had great ideas, but the workers didn't want to do it. Maybe a bit of both.
Goodwill is a very old organization so likely had a lot of ingrained bad practices and internal politics. It would be quite difficult for any manager to turn a ship like that around let alone someone fired from TCHC.
 

explorerzip

Well-known member
Jul 27, 2006
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The issue is that the people employed are the ones footing the bill. And people like me who did get laid off, still contribute back to the EI pot almost immediately. Yet, there are lots of lazy asses who who are regularly unemployed since they aren't smartening up and getting a better job or being better at that job to keep it. I can understand someone who has a physical or mental issue where having a hit and miss job is expected. But let's face it, there's lots of normal able bodied people who seem to not give a shit and try to get by. But once something happens, it comes to people who pay higher taxes and pay slip deductions to cover them.

It's like the unemployed guy who has a choice of trying to get social assistance for $xxxxx per year, or get a minimum wage job that might end up paying around the same. Some people will prefer to take option 1, where they prefer to sit on their ass and milk as many government cheques as possible.
I'm not sure if all your facts about EI are quite right. I honestly haven't collected EI either so I'd have to ask a professional. EI has conditions attached including who contributes and who can receive benefits. And Social Assistance (welfare) is not the same thing as EI. Welfare is for people that cannot collect on EI benefits because they don't have enough insurable hours, etc. There are definitely people that misuse the system though.
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
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Wouldn't the right answer be to set the price to maximize sales revenue? There was some noise that the pricing was out of whack, so some reductions might have moved more sales.
Reduce the price. Sure, if it increases the volume. But, we don't know for sure if it will increase volume. On the other hand reducing expenses would definitely work. I'm assuming rent is a fixed expense so the only other major expense are salaries.

Or, close the unprofitable stores but that would still leave people unemployed.
I don't shop at Goodwill, so I don't know what the prices are like. I assumed the prices are set too low as a bargain basement type of place and suggested increasing it a tad. But perhaps benstt is correct and the prices at Goodwill are set too high for what they are worth..... old used stuff. Who knows.

I have shopped for used stuff at Value Village for cheesy Halloween gear. Interestingly, you can buy brand new stuff at VV. You could buy new Halloween props for $5, and used high end brand name stuff for $20. I bought a Burberry button shirt I needed for a costume and it was $19.99. Regular price would probably be...... $150? I bought a new wig for like $5 or $8.... I know for sure it was under $10.

Not sure how the prices are at Goodwill vs. places like VV, Talize (never shopped there, but I think they are like VV) and any other low cost store like this.
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
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IMO, how they teach math in school (at least when I went to HS) is part of the problem. I recall all my math courses being extremely dry and boring with no attempt at showing students how it applied to the real world. The funny thing is that I recall my uncle telling me a story of how his math teachers showing students how to play black jack (or some other card game) to demonstrate how probability works. Interesting how we know call that 'gamification.'

The 3 levels or streams you are referring to used to be called Advanced for university students, General for college or trade school level and Basic for everyone else. The sad thing is that ALL students no matter what level they take need the basic financial skills especially budgeting no matter what they choose as a career. As far as I know, they de-streamed (or removed advanced, general and basic) in grade 9 around the same time grade 13 was eliminated. That also create the 'double cohort' problem where kids were graduating the 5 year and 4 year HS program and applying to post-secondary at the same time.
That is another issue with math in HS. Most of the time, math is some reason taught with little or zero creativity. Is it that hard to take some of those questions and meld it into something kind of interesting? Very dry when it's just a set of numbers.

Since the past 10 years are all about cell phones, tablets, Facebook and such, twist some of the questions to do with those gadgets. At least make it kind of interesting. The only time I remember taking A&G, Calculus and Finite (took them all) where the questions were at least kind of interesting was finite. Although no teacher actually taught us blackjack, at least the questions often had to do with cards. You have 3 jacks, what's the probability of pulling a 4th one given you have two discards and such. I don't remember any A&G or calculus material that had a hint of interesting material..... at least none of my teachers tried.

I'm not a teacher, but working in business as my career, in order to get your point across it's not strictly about numbers. In fact, most people HATE when someone comes by or is in a meeting and all they do is whip out a spreadsheet. Although financials are important, in order to get your point across you got to convince people with a story, factors, consequence, and make it interesting etc....

You don't just go up to someone and say.... hey, look at my spreadhseet. It says $1,000,000. That is a good number IMO. Bye.

To get the crowd interested and ensure people understand..... how did you get to $1,000,000? Why is $1,000,000 important? What happens if we do something else, what $$$ do we then get? Less? more? What do we have to do if we want to get to $2,000,000? What's the story? Does anyone disagree and why?

Get people engaged and you can get your point across easier. Be boring and just make people stare at an Excel doc and half your crowd will doze off.... even if $1,000,000 is correct and a good number people should be happy about. Shouldn't teaching be one part material and one part presentation/teaching skill? Instead, it seems the teachers focus on the material (which they are right probably 99% of the time), but do teachers take presentation classes? Do they take speaking classes? Doesn't look like it.

As for the double cohort year, my HS years were way before it. But that graduating year of double grads must have been weird. How did all the colleges and universities support that year? Did they purposely open up admissions to smooth it out, or they pretty much held firm so you have a large amount of students who got denied?
 

Occasionally

Active member
May 22, 2011
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It also depends on the demographics of the typical Goodwill shopper. Can that market bear an across the board price increase?
I don't know what the prices are like. But if they are set abnormally low, I think they can hike up prices.

Dollarama started out selling $1 items..... now it's $1, $1.50, $2, $2.50 and $3. And some products have had their prices inched up a tier. I highly doubt any products have gone down in price. A good portion of their products aren't even $1 anymore.

Yet, Dollarama is doing great as a retailer. Yeah, they sell new stuff and have 100s of locations, so that helps their growth prospects, but i don't see customers avoiding the store. They are in super growth mode.
 

peteeey

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Aug 18, 2001
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Do they teach Latin anymore? I recall a friend going to a retirement party for one of her friends around 10 years ago and she said this woman was one of two remaining Latin teachers in the TDSB.


Latin is very beneficial, more students should be exposed to it.
 

peteeey

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Aug 18, 2001
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The two facilities may have different locals that negotiate different contracts at different times. Or their job descriptions may be different or salary may increase based on how long they've been with the company.

Could somebody please explain to me,... just why the fuck does one worker in a unionized facility, have the "right" to make more money,... than one worker in another facility,... in the same fricken company,...???

A 1000 words or less,...please.

FAST
 

MattRoxx

Call me anti-fascist
Nov 13, 2011
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I get around.
Goodwill's problems were in management, not the union workers. Ed Keenan had a good writeup yesterday:
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/01/22/goodwills-descent-a-disgrace-keenan.html
...this is more egregious than your run-of-the-mill troubled-company-screws-its-employees story: Goodwill is a charitable organization whose primary charitable activity was providing employment opportunities to the downtrodden. Now it is trodding them down further.
And they have offered no defensible excuse for it: the explanation is apparently that the changing retail market and high rents mean the thrift store model is not viable anymore. It’s possible to imagine, in a retail environment where even corporate titans like Target and Walmart are facing a tough go of things, that even under good management the charitable model might not have been sustainable. It’s possible, though not a sure thing: Goodwill got millions in government grants and, as a retail operation, got its products donated free. But still. It’s possible to imagine good managers needing to close the stores.
But Goodwill was very clearly not benefitting from any such good management here. Because no competent executive running a $30-million-a-year enterprise would be so taken off-guard by the business climate that it would need to shut down immediately and default on its payroll. CEO Keiko Nakamura — of whom most of the public last heard when she was being shown the door in 2011, after a spending scandal at her last job as head of Toronto Community Housing — says it’s a “cash-flow crisis.” But an executive who doesn’t see a cash crunch like this coming — one Nakamura says, remember, was caused by a changing marketplace and lease terms, not a natural disaster — is a bum, plain and simple.
What about the board, who all apparently signed off on this plan before resigning en masse? How did a group of experienced and savvy business people preside over this fiasco? What kind of oversight were they providing as this 80-year-old ship cruised full-speed into an iceberg?
Here’s a clue: “We support Ms. Nakamura’s continued leadership in finding and implementing long-term solutions needed,” the board members reportedly wrote in their resignation letter, signed by chair Michael Eubanks. “She is a capable and strong leader who is determined to see through the next chapter for Goodwill. We stand behind her and the decision currently made in this situation.”
Nope. Nope, nope, nope.
These people have not just presided over the downfall of a beloved charity, but in the manner they’ve done so, they have inflicted suffering on the people they were given a public trust to help.
 

james t kirk

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Aug 17, 2001
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for the most part you post drivel, but you are an expert in articulating stereotypes...anything else , meh..

ya life goes on....................for you


idiot, bad management caused the failure of Goodwill, not workers salaries that are barely over minimum wage
Anyone else notice a certain style of posting by ogibowt? Debate by insult. That always works so well.

JFYI, media has reported that the average wage at Goodwill was $14.00 / hr.

That's about 40% more than minimum wage, which is what you would get at Walmart. So it's not bad.
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
10,069
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The two facilities may have different locals that negotiate different contracts at different times. Or their job descriptions may be different or salary may increase based on how long they've been with the company.
I guess I should have made myself a bit more clear.

My point is,...why does some one feel they have the "right" to make more money in one facility that is unionized,...than another person who works for the SAME company,... in a facility that is not unionized.

FAST
 

FAST

Banned
Mar 12, 2004
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