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#stopgunviolence

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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So we will never have sensible gun safety legislation because there will be the NRA on one side demanding no legislation and your ilk on the other demanding something more draconian. Deadlock.
....
Do you ever wonder why people call you an idiot? Posts like this show you and groggy are made for each other.

On one side we have the NRA arguing everyone should have guns without restrictions (except for Muslims). On my side, I think that mandatory background checks are important for all gun sales. The fact that you characterize my opinion as draconian shows what kind of a troll you are.

Canada has government background checks and mandated safety training for all potential gun owners. Sounds like a good system to me. Too bad the NRA and the rest of the gun lobby are so opposed to common sense and oppose any restrictions on guns.
 

fuji

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Jan 31, 2005
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So why wouldn't the NRA be a good accrediting agency for firearms safety instruction?

Come on, out with it. The answer is clearly that having the NRA do it would only lead to firearm safety and wouldn't be something you could leverage into a crackdown.
 

cunning linguist

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Oct 13, 2009
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The internet and multiple news reports show how easily a gun can be bought through private sales without an FFL and it is 100% legal under US law. I find it amazing that you are trying to deny something that is so widely known.



...A training organization that refuses to accept even the most sensible precautions about guns.
Except when it isn't legal, like selling a firearm to a felon, private or not. So you want to eliminate private sales? So much for reason, sensibility and compromise. Any time an anti talks about compromise, it usually involves just taking something away without giving something in return, the degree of what's taken away at the time is what constitutes "compromise". No compromise, don't like it? Pound sand and by all means, exercise your freedom to not own a gun, problem solved.
 

cunning linguist

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Oct 13, 2009
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Do you ever wonder why people call you an idiot? Posts like this show you and groggy are made for each other.

On one side we have the NRA arguing everyone should have guns without restrictions (except for Muslims). On my side, I think that mandatory background checks are important for all gun sales. The fact that you characterize my opinion as draconian shows what kind of a troll you are.

Canada has government background checks and mandated safety training for all potential gun owners. Sounds like a good system to me. Too bad the NRA and the rest of the gun lobby are so opposed to common sense and oppose any restrictions on guns.
If I have reason to believe the buyer has a PAL and the firearm in question is non-restricted, I don't need to check anything in Canada. In fact, I involve the CFP and CFO as little as possible in any of my transactions and guess what? 100% legal.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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Except when it isn't legal, like selling a firearm to a felon, private or not. ...
And without background checks, how is someone supposed to know if the buyer has a criminal record, mental health issue, or is on a terror watch list?

And you're as bad at reading as fuji. I support background checks. A private sale to a guy already approved by the government doesn't bother me (like the way it works in Canada).
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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If I have reason to believe the buyer has a PAL and the firearm in question is non-restricted, I don't need to check anything in Canada.....
Seems you agree with me. Potential buyer gets PAL and takes mandatory safety course. Seller checks to ensure buyer has PAL. Unfortunately a system that the NRA opposes.
 

cunning linguist

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Oct 13, 2009
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And without background checks, how is someone supposed to know if the buyer has a criminal record, mental health issue, or is on a terror watch list?
By asking. Maybe ask someone to voluntarily provide something like a letter from a local police agency showing a clean criminal history. There's always the option to back out, no government interference necessary.

Forcing someone to register as a retail business, in order to participate in a private sale, with the threat of criminalization is invasive and punitive.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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By asking. Maybe ask someone to voluntarily provide something like a letter from a local police agency showing a clean criminal history. ....
So in other words a background check. And I would sure expect something more authoritative than just asking.

Why is it that the NRA is so opposed to background checks?
 

fuji

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So in other words a background check. And I would sure expect something more authoritative than just asking.

Why is it that the NRA is so opposed to background checks?
The NRA is opposed because the gun debate has basically devolved into a tug of war where each side holds an extreme view and sees every move as an attempt to go to the opposite extreme. And each side DOES that.

The NRA thinks if they give an inch on background checks, the anti side will just keep pulling on the rope and try and get a mile, and they WILL.

The abortion debate is the same. Polarized into a tug of war to the point where no policy at all gets enacted.

Suppose the NRA agreed to background checks. Next you would have Bloomberg financing a campaign to have them implemented as a registry of gun owners so the police would know who had and did not have a background check (and guns). That would create a registry of gun owners which the NRA is dead set against.

In a less polarized world you could find a compromise, a way of implementing the checks without creating any centralized records. You could do training the same decentralized way, with no centralized database of who had training.

That would likely be acceptable to everyone but it will never happen because if either side agreed to it the other side would play tug of war and try to get more. So neither side wants to give an inch.

Look in Canada at what the RCMP will do next: use some slimy sketchy argument to ban a whole lot of rifles based on some very flimsy excuses. That is what the NRA thinks will start happening in the US if they let a Canadian style system come into being.
 

cunning linguist

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So in other words a background check. And I would sure expect something more authoritative than just asking.

Why is it that the NRA is so opposed to background checks?
A voluntary one, because it is, after all, a private sale, the details of which are none of your or the government's business. Don't like the way someone conducts their private business, don't do business.

Regardless, a background check would not have stopped any of the previous tragedies, it's just another way for antis to be even more invasive and eventually end private gun ownership.
 

cunning linguist

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Oct 13, 2009
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Seems you agree with me. Potential buyer gets PAL and takes mandatory safety course. Seller checks to ensure buyer has PAL. Unfortunately a system that the NRA opposes.
I don't always check and I'm under no legal obligation to do so, if I have reason to believe that the person has a PAL, like if I sell to another member at my gun club. I never call the CFC or CFO for a non-restricted transfer because it's no longer legally any of their business. I have also refused to do business with any strangers who, through the course of deal making, became overly invasive or requested hard copies of too much information.

I refuse to help recreate a system which seeks to criminalize otherwise law abiding citizens and I do it legally.
 

basketcase

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Dec 29, 2005
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A voluntary one, because it is, after all, a private sale, the details of which are none of your or the government's business. Don't like the way someone conducts their private business, don't do business.
So some smooth talker felon convinces you they have a PAL and guess what, you're no longer making a legal sale.

... it's just another way for antis to be even more invasive and eventually end private gun ownership.
And back to the paranoid conspiracy theory.
 

onthebottom

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I have a radical thought, instead of coming up with policies that make us feel good (background checks) but will have no effect on gun crime why don't we work on the harder issues that drive gun violence.

The POTUS proposing background checks will have no effect on the 2,550 shootings in His home town this year (if it's anything like last year). What's really sad is we only get riled up when white suburban people get shot while the 29 people who have been shot and killed in Chicago this year (18 days) is largely unreported.
 

cunning linguist

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Oct 13, 2009
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So some smooth talker felon convinces you they have a PAL and guess what, you're no longer making a legal sale.
You mean, just like in the US where it's also illegal in every state to sell a firearm to a felon?!?!?!

Looks like we've come to the same conclusion, a piece of paper doesn't stop a criminal who is willing to break the law.
 

cunning linguist

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Oct 13, 2009
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Exactly my point. Without proof of a background check, there is no way to know.
Just like there's no way to know if you've booked an underage sex slave. But since you insist you're not a criminal, how about some consistency and intellectual honesty by extending the same benefit of the doubt to other citizens with different hobbies?
 

John Henry

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Apr 10, 2011
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That's all background checks are about - proof that you're not breaking the law by selling to a criminal.
Well actually no . A background check is only good for the moment that the check is done . You can have a PAL ( background checked ) and be a criminal later on . A PAL is good for 5 years . A lot can happen to a person in 5 years .

The only way to do it is for every one in Canada to be able to access the RCMP site and ask a person to show you their PAL and check their status when you wish to sell a firearm . That's not going to happen . Only gun shops are able to access that site .
 
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