We tax alcohol more, its not because of high prices at the LCBO.
Prices wouldn't go down to those levels at all without the LCBO, we'd just have to raise Ontario taxes by $1.7 billion to make up for lost LCBO profit.
Time to privatize LCBO?
- Thread starter huckfinn
- Start date
Prices wouldn't go down to those levels at all without the LCBO, we'd just have to raise Ontario taxes by $1.7 billion to make up for lost LCBO profit.
Politics aside, I like the LCBO.. Their selection is great, their stores are largely bright and pleasant, their staff are knowledgeable..
Some will argue that their prices are high, but I've been all over Canada and the USA and, while I've found plenty of stores with cheaper prices, I can say for certain that PRIVATIZATION doesn't always mean CHEAPER because there are just as many stores which sell their booze for far more.
Some will argue that their prices are high, but I've been all over Canada and the USA and, while I've found plenty of stores with cheaper prices, I can say for certain that PRIVATIZATION doesn't always mean CHEAPER because there are just as many stores which sell their booze for far more.
jimmy, once again you state your views, coherantly and well thought out...................and i agree with you 100%
Commie logic
By your own admission,...its a tax,...and its not free enterprise,...the government does not allow competition,...so its ,...NOT PROFIT,...:
But I guess in the old failed USSR,...they would call it profit.
Tell my why CC can be bought cheaper outside of Canada,...???
Following your "logic",...if the Ont. government collected more taxes for education than was used,...the difference would be ,...PROFIT,...
FAST
Holy shit man,...you call the difference between what the overhead at the LCBO is,... and what it taxes us for the product,...PROFIT,...:frusty:
By your own admission,...its a tax,...and its not free enterprise,...the government does not allow competition,...so its ,...NOT PROFIT,...:
But I guess in the old failed USSR,...they would call it profit.
Tell my why CC can be bought cheaper outside of Canada,...???
Following your "logic",...if the Ont. government collected more taxes for education than was used,...the difference would be ,...PROFIT,...
FAST
... You're confused.
The LCBO sends their money to the province in two distinctly different ways.
First is through taxation. Each bottle of alcohol is taxed and that tax is sent directly the the government.
Second is through profits from the LCBO. If the LCBO runs a profit (which they always do) after paying leases, payroll, expenses, etc.,. then that profit goes to the government (as it's a Crown Corporation). This "profit" is generated from "mark up" on products, NOT taxes.
Prices at the LCBO aren't more expensive because the LCBO wants more profit, they're more expensive because of the taxes on each bottle. Those taxes would remain on each bottle of alcohol regardless of whether or not the LCBO is selling the alcohol or a private company is.. Hence, prices wouldn't fall dramatically if liquor sales were put in the hands of a private company.. But we (tax payers) WOULD have to make up for the lost PROFIT from the LCBO.
Yes, the government runs the LCBO as a business, as it would be in the free market. Any cash made after expenses and wages is still profit.
I thought you said you understood how the market works?
As Adamh very clearly stated, alcohol is expensive here because of the taxes on alcohol sales. They would be in place even with a private seller, the only difference is that some rich corporation would take the profit, just like the 407. Ontario would be left raising taxes to cover the $1.7 billion in lost LCBO profit.
Of course, the rich corporation would pay a hefty income tax to the government on that profit. Nothing escape taxes in this country.
Fair point.. Although it doesn't take a genius mathematician to calculate that a percentage of profits is less than ALL of the profits.
If the government instructed the LCBO to double the "profit", would you still consider the increased revenues a "profit", or a tax.
The LCBO makes a profit the same way the car licensing office makes a profit. They control the product and the price, and the public has no other option but to buy from them. It does not matter how they label the price difference between what it costs to bring the product in, and what they decide to sell it for. All the markups are set by the government, and all the revenue from the markups go to the government.
Please don't equate the 407 sale to the LCBO. The 407 is an essential service (roads) that is linked to transportation of goods and thus the economy. Selling that was a stupid short sighted asshole Conservative move that costs the public because the sales agreement prohibits competition (alternative roads) and gives a foreign company a monopoly on a crucial transportation route.
The LCBO should be removed (not sold as a monopoly) because it is regulating the sale of a commodity the same as butter, soda, apples, grapes .. these grapes, apples & corn just happen to be fermented. The LCBO was the Ontario government's version of controlled prohibition and should have been dismantled decades ago. The Ontario Government is already collecting outrageous amounts of money through liquor and sales tax so fuck the argument we should also support another revenue stream from their highly inefficient sale of a monopoly controlled product. If we follow that pattern of thought - why not let the Ontario Government control all food sales .. think of the extra revenue that they could squander !
Of course wine & alcohol will be cheaper in an open market (even with Ontario liquor taxes) because most consumable food items are not sold at 35% a margin. Also, wine, beer, etc. can be lost leader type sales items that will draw people into your stores to buy other items. If privatizing the existing LCBO simultaneously removes their monopoly hold on liquor sales - I am okay. I am not okay selling a monopoly (that shouldn't exist) to private industry. That is very foolish because the only way the sale could be made is that a private company will now have complete control over the liquor industry in Ontario.
Also don't have to drive, or live in a house, or do anything. Saying the LCBO made a profit because people don't have to buy beer is weak.
So the money received by the government from the set taxes on the product is a tax, and the money received by the government from the set markup is "profit"?
The word "profit" sounds good. Few business owners are able to run a businesses and make a profit, and business owners who can build and run a profitable business can be proud of their achievement. In the case of the LCBO there is nothing to be proud of, but the LCBO is using the word "profit" because it sounds good.
Look how cheap the 407 is with privatization.
Speaking of which, selling the LCBO would be the same boondoggle that was the sale of the 407. I don't think anybody at all looks at that sale in hindsight and says it was a good deal for Ontario/Ontarians.
Good argument for having government-run restaurants, gyms, coffee shops, grocery stores, movie theatres etc.
The price might be higher but they'd be bright and pleasant with knowledgeable staff.
Do you have a definition of profit that does not mean revenues are higher than costs?
Granted, in regards to education, it may be considered unethical to derive a profit, but a profit it is, none the less.
Of course it's profit. It is a profit derived from the fact that the LCBO/gov't have leverage. It's the same as the near monopolistic gas companies and banks who can gouge us at will because they have the leverage.
Profit is derived from consumers. Taxes are derived from the populace in general. If you have no kids you still pay taxes for education. If you don't buy booze you don't give the gov't any money.
When was the last time the government instructed the LCBO to double the prices?
It's actually irrelevant how you (or I) view the money that comes in from the LCBO.. Call it a tax if it makes you feel better...
Assuming that a private corporation would automatically LOWER prices (as well as babble on incoherently about how you can buy a bottle somewhere else for half the price), when a large portion (if not the bulk) of that price is currently as high as it is due to TAXES ON THE BOTTLE, is just stupid.
... You've literally just described a scenario where people would be paying more money for better service... *GASP* THE HORROR!!!!Good argument for having government-run restaurants, gyms, coffee shops, grocery stores, movie theatres etc.
The price might be higher but they'd be bright and pleasant with knowledgeable staff.
I have a love-hate relationship with the LCBO. They have an incredible product selection and a new vintages release every 2 weeks. Several of their larger stores have tasting bars where you can sample a wide variety of wines and spirits for a nominal fee. These also change every 2 weeks. If you like wine, it's a great way to sample before you buy. The other nice thing is that if you buy a bottle of wine and it's corked (like the $50 Amarone I bought last month) you simply return it, no questions asked. You can return a bottle if you don't like the taste. I've even broken a bottle. I returned to the LCBO with the neck and receipt and they replaced it at no charge. I doubt private retailers would have that policy.
My main complaint is the price of some of their products, especially spirits. Example, a 375 ml bottle of Tito's vodka is $19.95 at the LCBO. By comparison, I bought a 1.75 L of the same vodka for just $19 US at Walgreens in LA a couple months ago. Talk about getting gouged by the LCBO. I can live with their hours, that's not such a big deal to me but be a little more reasonable with the pricing.
In the case of wine, I can't imagine if they privatized the LCBO stores would have the same selection available. I would think most places would be likely to stock the best selling products instead of bringing in a new selection every 2 weeks.
I have a relative who lives in Alberta. He said once they privatized alcohol sales, prices went up and selection went down. He also said what drove him nuts was every store set their own hours so they were all over the map.
My main complaint is the price of some of their products, especially spirits. Example, a 375 ml bottle of Tito's vodka is $19.95 at the LCBO. By comparison, I bought a 1.75 L of the same vodka for just $19 US at Walgreens in LA a couple months ago. Talk about getting gouged by the LCBO. I can live with their hours, that's not such a big deal to me but be a little more reasonable with the pricing.
In the case of wine, I can't imagine if they privatized the LCBO stores would have the same selection available. I would think most places would be likely to stock the best selling products instead of bringing in a new selection every 2 weeks.
I have a relative who lives in Alberta. He said once they privatized alcohol sales, prices went up and selection went down. He also said what drove him nuts was every store set their own hours so they were all over the map.
Politics and pricing aside I will dispute the notion they offer a great selection. Sure their vintages releases can be wide ranging but there is only selection for products that have mass appeal. If it is a niche product or even just an out of province wine you are SOL.
Quality tequilas for example are sorely lacking at most LCBO locations. And what are you to do if you want to buy something not offered here? Shipping it isn't even an option.
Quality tequilas for example are sorely lacking at most LCBO locations. And what are you to do if you want to buy something not offered here? Shipping it isn't even an option.
