What are the short-term consequences of C-36?

[arodb]

First of all, is it safe to hobby between now and Dec 8th when this bill is suppose to become law?

After it becomes law, can any John's hobbying records (if any saved by the agency) prior to Dec 8th be subpoenaed and prosecuted?

How any of you noticed any changes because off C-36 already?

 

[DB123]

First of all, is it safe to hobby between now and Dec 8th when this bill is suppose to become law?

After it becomes law, can any John's hobbying records (if any saved by the agency) prior to Dec 8th be subpoenaed and prosecuted?

How any of you noticed any changes because off C-36 already?

First of all, yes it is. I've haven;t retired and haven't had an issue or cause for concern.

The law isn't retroactive, so what happened in the past is irrelevant.

Other than a bunch of :blabla: and :argue: on here, a few more vague ads and some threats of retirement. nothing has changed yet

 

[Toronto`s Finest]

I post this up again for those who missed it. There is other references floating around the net about expressions of city officials / Chief prosecuters not happy with c-36 & not intending to enforce other than as in past with case of Street activity / underage/ forced Prostitution & Human Trafficing .
........There is a tweet indicating Mayor John Tory interested in righting the wrongs of Harpers c-36. I will update as soon as I get more developing details.
Long story short .... seems like some guys are overblowing how these laws are enforced , when actually seems like will be enfoced just like they were in the past..... to address specific problem situations.

Our response to the passing of Bill C-36

November 7 2014

Vancouver City Hall


The City is concerned with the passing of Bill C-36, Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, as research confirms that criminalization of sex work puts those involved in sex work at further risk of increased violence.

The passing of Bill C-36:
•Undermines the health and safety of sex workers
•Increases social exclusion and pushes sex workers to work in more isolated areas

What this decision means for the City going forward

Going forward, the collective focus needs to continue to be on the health and safety of sex workers and the communities that they live and work. The City remains committed to this, and in October 2014, Mayor and Council adopted Vancouver’s Healthy City Strategy, which identifies 13 goals, including:
•Safety and inclusion
•To promote health and well-being for all
•A target to make Vancouver the safest major city in Canada by reducing crimes, including sexual assault, year-over-year

The City will continue to work in partnership with community groups and the provincial government to minimize safety risks and harms for sex workers. This includes:
•Addressing all forms of exploitation and abuse
•Providing opportunities for education and awareness
•Enabling access to health and social service gaps
•Creating transitioning opportunities for those seeking to exit

City urged the federal government to refer the proposed legislation to the Supreme Court

In submissions to the Federal Government, the City urged that the proposed legislation be referred to the Supreme Court to ensure its compliance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the spirit of the Bedford Decision: prioritizing the health, safety and dignity of those it’s declared to protect. The City also asked that there be consultation, which previously did not take place, with municipalities across the country on potential impacts.

In 2013 the City provided over $400,000 in grants to 11 community organizations to:
•Promote sex worker health and safety
•Address child and youth sexual exploitation

 

[bazokajoe]

I have noticed some girls aren't taking on any new customers after Dec 1/14.

ASB is 1 agency that has put that in their ad.Also an Indy on here stated the same in her ad.

 

[MPAsquared]

I post this up again for those who missed it. There is other references floating around the net about expressions of city officials / Chief prosecuters not happy with c-36 & not intending to enforce other than as in past with case of Street activity / underage/ forced Prostitution & Human Trafficing .
........There is a tweet indicating Mayor John Tory interested in righting the wrongs of Harpers c-36. I will update as soon as I get more developing details.
Long story short .... seems like some guys are overblowing how these laws are enforced , when actually seems like will be enfoced just like they were in the past..... to address specific problem situations.

Our response to the passing of Bill C-36

November 7 2014

Vancouver City Hall


The City is concerned with the passing of Bill C-36, Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, as research confirms that criminalization of sex work puts those involved in sex work at further risk of increased violence.

The passing of Bill C-36:
•Undermines the health and safety of sex workers
•Increases social exclusion and pushes sex workers to work in more isolated areas

What this decision means for the City going forward

Going forward, the collective focus needs to continue to be on the health and safety of sex workers and the communities that they live and work. The City remains committed to this, and in October 2014, Mayor and Council adopted Vancouver’s Healthy City Strategy, which identifies 13 goals, including:
•Safety and inclusion
•To promote health and well-being for all
•A target to make Vancouver the safest major city in Canada by reducing crimes, including sexual assault, year-over-year

The City will continue to work in partnership with community groups and the provincial government to minimize safety risks and harms for sex workers. This includes:
•Addressing all forms of exploitation and abuse
•Providing opportunities for education and awareness
•Enabling access to health and social service gaps
•Creating transitioning opportunities for those seeking to exit

City urged the federal government to refer the proposed legislation to the Supreme Court

In submissions to the Federal Government, the City urged that the proposed legislation be referred to the Supreme Court to ensure its compliance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the spirit of the Bedford Decision: prioritizing the health, safety and dignity of those it’s declared to protect. The City also asked that there be consultation, which previously did not take place, with municipalities across the country on potential impacts.

In 2013 the City provided over $400,000 in grants to 11 community organizations to:
•Promote sex worker health and safety
•Address child and youth sexual exploitation

Link? I'd like to see that Tweet. I wouldn't base my business' standing on tweets! I have yet to see any public mention or statement by any Toronto or Ontario officials.

 

[Celticman]

I have noticed some girls aren't taking on any new customers after Dec 1/14.

ASB is 1 agency that has put that in their ad.Also an Indy on here stated the same in her ad.

Interesting that an agency will not accept new customers come December. I would think that new clients are an important part of their business model. Also, there will always be a certain number of ASB's regular clients who will drop off. Overall, seems like a recipe for the law of diminishing returns.

 

[DB123]

Interesting that an agency will not accept new customers come December. I would think that new clients are an important part of their business model. Also, there will always be a certain number of ASB's regular clients who will drop off. Overall, seems like a recipe for the law of diminishing returns.

No, it seems like marketing to get people in the door...

 

[saxon]

Even if LE used old agency records it wouldn't amount to anything. Just because you paid an agency $250 doesn't prove you had sex with one of their girls.

 

[Toronto`s Finest]

Actually most agencies these days delete text & call history daily off their phones

 

[DB123]

Hi Everyone,

I dont often hit the lounge but wanted to weight in on this. I am a lawyer and the biggest issue that I see for those that hobby with reputable in call/out call establishments is there private information. This has always been a concern of mine but this is escalated with the new potential changes. In particular, agencies and SPs receive clients cell phone numbers and many keep them for frequent user awards etc. The issue is if there was a search warrant, the phone records could end up as public information (even if charges are never laid against the client). I think the most important thing that everyone could do is encourage indys and agencies to take steps to ensure those records are never kept at the appointment is complete and to ditch things like frequent user records. My concern is that this may not happen because indys and agencies will want to keep them as they feel more comfortable providing services to existing customers.

I dont anticipate that this legislation will survive SCC challenge but my theory is the government doesnt care. They want to show their supporters they are doing something and so they will allow years to go by before it moves up the Court system and will not refer it to the SCC.

A search warrant based on what? The having of records is not an issue and past conduct is not an issue.

I suppose in some Orwellian nightmare, big brother; now in possession of the knowledge that this number has called that agency will monitor your activity day and night in the hopes of catching you in the act (the act of what being a separate, difficult to establish matter unto itself).

Is your concern a story in the newspaper with 100's or 1000's of "names" and phone numbers listed? ain't gonna happen.

I don't mean to sound all whatever, but you're a real estate lawyer, aren't you?

 

[Toronto`s Finest]

Exactly!!! Real Estate LOL ... I have a few criminal lawyers in my family as well as experience on the application of these laws up to now. Toronto Police chief even said will continue focus on specific problem situations such as street, underage & forced as well as Human Trafficing. :thumb:

 

[wangbang]

How any of you noticed any changes because off C-36 already?

When I flew out of Pearson last week I saw the new hobbiest internment camp....frickin' huge.

Overall, seems like a recipe for the law of diminishing returns.

Agreed, every time a lady has done an ad like this in the past they seem to be back advertising within weeks. Either regulars fall off fast or it is a marketing ploy. Given how men like the strange it would seem to be a business built on turnover.

 

[DB123]

DB - this is why somedays I hate this site. I was just trying to give people some information.

I am not saying its going to happen, I am saying that is anissue. Given the new laws and their impact on agencies, there is enough information on this site alone IF the police decided to focus on one agency, they could just to make a statement and scary the shit out of alot of people (including those on this site). I am not saying its going to happen, and in fact, I think most LE will not do anything as they know this law wont stand and its a waste of resources. I am just saying that the keeping of that information is the greatest risk at the moment if people use reputable agencies - not a great risk, the greatest risk IMHO. You may not care where your phone number is, but I do, and I know alot of people do as well. The police wouldnt post it in the paper, but having it anywhere is a concern for me.

I would ask that if you take issue with my posts that you can be critical but please dont attack me personally. This is why alot of people dont post on this site.

Ps - I graduated in the top 1% of my class and am listed in lexpert as a top rated lawyer in the country - I do not practice real estate law, although even a real estate lawyer would know the answers to this question.

First off I didn't attack you personally. I would imagine I (correctly) surmised that you are not a criminal lawyer, and likely don't specialize in charter cases, FWIW. Sorry if you felt that was a personal attack.

Second, you didn't equivocate and you didn't say you thought it was unlikely. What you said is that its the biggest issue. I say nay, that's all.

Third, you were not giving "information". You were speculating and fear mongering. If a plebe like myself can see that, the top 1% certainly should as well...

 

[DB123]

I am actually very experienced in charter issues and have argued at the SCC on charter issues. I specifically said that the government doesnt even think there is a real chance the law will survive the charter challenge (which is why they elected not to refer it to the SCC) so I am not sure how you can say that I am fear mongering.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Obviously you are great supporter of this site and a great contributor and I appreciate that. I just wish people would disagree respectfully. Even in your response where you deny personally attacking me you accuse me of fear mongering and speculating. Am I wrong that agencies keep records? I am not fear mongering nor am I speculating because many agencies have loyalty programs including Mirage as an example (my favourite place). They just posted today with their loyalty program. I am not trying to cause a problem, but if you want to know what is a concern to me, that is it.

Again, totally fair, but there is fundamental difference between a concern to you and the biggest issue. (I didn't accuse you of speculating, you were speculating. come on now)

I never try to cause a problem. Ask around, I'm a real doll

 

[james t kirk]

Getting tossed in jail.

How's that for a short term complication?

 

[krazyplayer]

Did you guys watch the house or senate hearings?
They specifically named escort services and massage places as being targets for C36.
The suspician of being a "commercial enterpise that offers sexual services for money" can launch an investigation leading to search warrants wire taps etc.
It is totally understandable that an escort agency would not want to have new clients (undercover cops) as they are totally vulnerable to being charged - every single person working there who is not the escort herself can be charged under this new law.

 

[nottyboi]

When I flew out of Pearson last week I saw the new hobbiest internment camp....frickin' huge.

Do you mean the new prison in Etobicoke? I don't think they will do much against individual hobbyists, but if I were an agency owner, especially an Asian agency owner I would be very concerned. I would make sure I am lawyered up and if I were some of the top agencies I would get a mutual agreement ready with other agencies and a major law firm to pay the cost of the constitutional challenge when one of them gets taken down. Knowing the agencies are funded, and ready to roll may give many cities pause as they will face a massive legal bill if they decide to be the ones to enforce it.

 

[Toronto`s Finest]

It has been said time & time again .... up to now INCALLS are Illegal. In or leaving an incall anyone regardless of his reason for being there can be charged with " Found in Bawdy House " What has happened? NOTHING ... There is over 200 incall businesses in the G.T.A. There is a huge difference between a law on the books & enforcement. Various officials have already said they will continue their focus on specific problem circumstances . Not in the cities best interest to shove all the activity outdoors on the street & close Incalls.

VANCOUVER HAS EVEN MADE THEIR POSITION CLEAR ON THEIR WEBSITE:

Our response to the passing of Bill C-36

November 7 2014

Vancouver City Hall


The City is concerned with the passing of Bill C-36, Protection of Communities and Exploited Persons Act, as research confirms that criminalization of sex work puts those involved in sex work at further risk of increased violence.

The passing of Bill C-36:
•Undermines the health and safety of sex workers
•Increases social exclusion and pushes sex workers to work in more isolated areas

What this decision means for the City going forward

Going forward, the collective focus needs to continue to be on the health and safety of sex workers and the communities that they live and work. The City remains committed to this, and in October 2014, Mayor and Council adopted Vancouver’s Healthy City Strategy, which identifies 13 goals, including:
•Safety and inclusion
•To promote health and well-being for all
•A target to make Vancouver the safest major city in Canada by reducing crimes, including sexual assault, year-over-year

The City will continue to work in partnership with community groups and the provincial government to minimize safety risks and harms for sex workers. This includes:
•Addressing all forms of exploitation and abuse
•Providing opportunities for education and awareness
•Enabling access to health and social service gaps
•Creating transitioning opportunities for those seeking to exit

City urged the federal government to refer the proposed legislation to the Supreme Court

In submissions to the Federal Government, the City urged that the proposed legislation be referred to the Supreme Court to ensure its compliance with the Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the spirit of the Bedford Decision: prioritizing the health, safety and dignity of those it’s declared to protect. The City also asked that there be consultation, which previously did not take place, with municipalities across the country on potential impacts.

In 2013 the City provided over $400,000 in grants to 11 community organizations to:
•Promote sex worker health and safety
•Address child and youth sexual exploitation

 

[MPAsquared]

Did you guys watch the house or senate hearings?
They specifically named escort services and massage places as being targets for C36.
The suspician of being a "commercial enterpise that offers sexual services for money" can launch an investigation leading to search warrants wire taps etc.
It is totally understandable that an escort agency would not want to have new clients (undercover cops) as they are totally vulnerable to being charged - every single person working there who is not the escort herself can be charged under this new law.

Let's make a few things clear.... 1. enforcement decides who & how to enforce laws. 2. My meetings with LE + others has shown me trafficking is a priority. 3. The hearings also hadd representation in the senate from Toronto body rubs and it was expressed that businesses that provide body rubs are not the target. 4. There was no specification or clarification between a licensed body rub parlor, a holistic center misusing it's license to operate as a body rub parlor, and unlicensed massage parlors. 5. Canada has no licensed "massage parlors" or "massage places". 6. Zoning guidelines for Toronto body rub parlors are stricter than c-36's communication clauses. 7. Licensing takes the underage aspect out of the equation. 8. Condos & hotels are the focus for Toronto LE. 9. Spend hours of your time speaking to Toronto police, sex crimes, bylaw, rcmp, opp, and various politicians as I have to come to any conclusions please.

 

[cryptic]

Well said - however, I think the issue that people are having is that your post states "8. Condos & hotels are the focus for Toronto LE." which is what indys and agencys that provide SPs use.

I wonder if MPAsquared can elaborate on the 8th point.