c36

[Pistola]

Read bottom of post 101. Masturbation of another in a massage parlour is defined as a sexual service in this law. The old "handjobs" are legal and the other stuff is the problem doesn't hold anymore.

We're screwed then!!! Mr.Mackay must be gay. Why create this new bill? Screw PC. My vote with Justin. Liberal.
They're just going to drive this underground!

 

[MPAsquared]

Read bottom of post 101. Masturbation of another in a massage parlour is defined as a sexual service in this law. The old "handjobs" are legal and the other stuff is the problem (what you seem to want to hold onto) doesn't hold anymore.

Some small court judge is not able to deem this as non sexual anymore because the law clearly spells out the act of a handjob as sexual. That was not the case with the prior law.

Good thing handjobs aren't in Toronto bylaws.

 

[pablice]

They are fighting to take away our freedom and undermine all of the brave soldiers who fought to keep Canadians free...shame on them for spitting on our individual freedoms and trying to repress our evolution as a society and setting us back decades. They may win the battle but they will not win the war! This is a huge setback for the Canadian society, our culture and how the politician's value our individual freedoms. We must not forget all of the ones who are part of this repression of freedom and how they forcefully shoved heir personal beliefs and agenda down all of Canadians throats...this is a huge setback for our Country.

We're screwed then!!! Mr.Mackay must be gay. Why create this new bill? Screw PC. My vote with Justin. Liberal.
They're just going to drive this underground!

 

[maurice93]

Good thing handjobs aren't in Toronto bylaws.

I don't disagree the by laws skirt that issue. My personal opinion is that it will still come down to community tolerance just like it did before. There were laws in the past that we're there if they wanted to use them. But they chose not to. Same principle could well apply now especially when licenses are being still issued -- that's a good indication of community tolerance,


But the handjobs are legal defence does not hold anymore -- not fear mongering. Just a fact.

I am wondering if peel by laws need to change as they are more liberal in what they openly allow.

 

[stay]

Read bottom of post 101. Masturbation of another in a massage parlour is defined as a sexual service in this law. The old "handjobs" are legal and the other stuff is the problem (what you seem to want to hold onto) doesn't hold anymore.

Some small court judge is not able to deem this as non sexual anymore because the law clearly spells out the act of a handjob as sexual. That was not the case with the prior law.

I am painfully aware of the law.
Is the rights of a stripper infringed because the strip club is no longer a strip club. If she chose to strip as a short term profession for financial reasons, but the club generally offers more and possibly illegal service, what are her rights?

Is a MP room a private room, does the fact that the doors are not permitted to be locked mean that the presumsion of privacy is not real.

The law is here, talking about how it is a bad law at this particular point in time is a waste if breath.

 

[MPAsquared]

I don't disagree the by laws skirt that issue. My personal opinion is that it will still come down to community tolerance just like it did before. There were laws in the past that we're there if they wanted to use them. But they chose not to. Same principle could well apply now especially when licenses are being still issued -- that's a good indication of community tolerance,


But the handjobs are legal defence does not hold anymore -- not fear mongering. Just a fact.

I am wondering if peel by laws need to change as they are more liberal in what they openly allow.

Omg let it be written, let it be done! Maurice & I agree on something! Finally! I'm happy dancing Sir.

 

[TeasePlease]

They are fighting to take away our freedom and undermine all of the brave soldiers who fought to keep Canadians free...shame on them for spitting on our individual freedoms and trying to repress our evolution as a society and setting us back decades. They may win the battle but they will not win the war! This is a huge setback for the Canadian society, our culture and how the politician's value our individual freedoms. We must not forget all of the ones who are part of this repression of freedom and how they forcefully shoved heir personal beliefs and agenda down all of Canadians throats...this is a huge setback for our Country.

I like you Pabby, but I have to say that I'm not very comfortable with these comments, especially today. I understand the sentiment, and the ideal. I'd just prefer to think that our sons and daughters have sacrificed their lives for something more noble than the right to poon.

 

[oldjones]

Read bottom of post 101. Masturbation of another in a massage parlour is defined as a sexual service in this law. The old "handjobs" are legal and the other stuff is the problem (what you seem to want to hold onto) doesn't hold anymore.
Some small court judge is not able to deem this as non sexual anymore because the law clearly spells out the act of a handjob as sexual. That was not the case with the prior law.

Here's that Post 101 stuff. I underlined some salient bits I think you overlooked:

HOWEVER, if the government's technical paper is accurately based on previous court cases, then lap dancing is a sexual service as well as masturbation at a spa. http://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/rp-pr/other-autre/protect/p1.html
The following activities have been found to constitute a sexual service or an act of prostitution, if provided in return for some form of consideration: lap-dancing, which involves sitting in the client’s lap and simulating sexual intercourse;[31] masturbation of a client in the context of a massage parlour, whether or not the client climaxes;[32] and, sado-masochistic activities, provided that the acts can be considered to be sexually stimulating/gratifying.[33] However, jurisprudence is clear that neither acts related to the production of pornography,[34] nor stripping[35] meet the test. In most cases, physical contact, or sexual interaction, between the person providing the service and the person receiving it is required; however, acts for which consideration is provided that take place in a private room in a club and that are sexual in nature, but do not involve physical contact between the “client” and “performer”, such as self-masturbation, have been found to constitute prostitution.[36]

The law is what the law says, not what some technical paper that the lawmakers may or may not have read, might say—perhaps inaccurately. The law does not say sexual services are illegal, only acts of prostitution—which a service only becomes when and if it is "…provided in return for some form of consideration". The note that an act of self-masturbation can be prostitution even without interpersonal contact restates and reinforces the essential requirement, that it is an act "…for which consideration is provided". (If I recall the case, there were Quebec SCs with private booths customers rented with dancers who wouldn't touch but would allow them to masturbate. For a fee.)

Lap-dancing certainly is performed for consideration, but the case cited in the paper (R. v. Caringi, citing R. v. Mara and East, of Cheaters fame)) doesn't seem to have decided it is a sexual service, only that it exceeded "…community standards of tolerance", and thus was an 'indecent performance'—a crime. I can't say the government's technical writers stretched that point, but a judge certainly could decide otherwise, as there is no 'lap-dancing' definition or offence in C36.

The Handjobs Are Legal Defence, never existed. In the original case the judge found the Crown had failed to prove that essential element of an act of prostitution: payment/consideration for sexual service. His point was that with no proof the payment was specifically for sexual service, so there was sufficient possibility to qualify as a reasonable doubt, that the money was only for the massage and the bit of sex was a spontaneous freebie.

The Crown must still tie the consideration to the act in order to prove there was prostitution. It make take an energetic and clever advocate to keep a judge or jury from doing it for them, and jumping to lacivious conclusions but that's why we have defence attorneys, and the presumption of innocence.

Took a lot of pain and trouble for Bedford, but it worked in the end. Now it's our turn to make the authorities honest.

 

[MPAsquared]

I like you Pabby, but I have to say that I'm not very comfortable with these comments, especially today. I understand the sentiment, and the ideal. I'd just prefer to think that our sons and daughters have sacrificed their lives for something more noble than the right to poon.

It's not about pooning. Its about the right to choose what a person does with their body! Its ironic that in abortion fights, a woman has the right to choose. Her body, her choice. But if her choice is that she wants to make her sex a profession, she no longer has the right to choose. And this government went so far as to say we cannot consent. As if we are underage drinkers or child drivers or teens trying to wed. Apparently if you fuck or suck & love it, you are demeaned to nothing more than a poor mindless victim.

For clients, it's a similar reduction of choice. Why can't a man pay for professional services? Why can't a disabled person hire professional sex? Since when can a man not decide for himself what to do with his own penis or money?

(all of this is assumed on consensual sex work! C-36 tainted the actual premise of adult prostitution with underage/non-consensual/trafficking. That is not what the original laws struck down were even about. This is in the context of adults choosing their own sexual choices, without harming anyone)

 

[pablice]

+1 thank you MPA2.

This is a fundamentall right as a human being and nobody should have the right to take this away from us. Our freedom to choose should be paramount on what we want to do with our bodies. Why allow some bible thumping morons take this from us and in turn make us criminal, make us ashamed for having a healthy sex life, and endanger sex workers with these new crazy laws. What is next, what are they goingto take away from us next? Sorry TP, I know on the surface it seems superficial, however, it is a fundament right to choose, and to fight for this right.

Of corse I am greatful for all the other freedoms that we have and for the ones who fought for this country. I have the utmost respect for them and would put my life on the line for Canada any day. I just beleive that the current politicians in power are spitting in all our faces, repressing our right to choose what to do with our bodies, and setting our progression as a civilised society decades back.

This is trully a shame!

It's not about pooning. Its about the right to choose what a person does with their body! Its ironic that in abortion fights, a woman has the right to choose. Her body, her choice. But if her choice is that she wants to make her sex a profession, she no longer has the right to choose. And this government went so far as to say we cannot consent. As if we are underage drinkers or child drivers or teens trying to wed. Apparently if you fuck or suck & love it, you are demeaned to nothing more than a poor mindless victim.

For clients, it's a similar reduction of choice. Why can't a man pay for professional services? Why can't a disabled person hire professional sex? Since when can a man not decide for himself what to do with his own penis or money?

(all of this is assumed on consensual sex work! C-36 tainted the actual premise of adult prostitution with underage/non-consensual/trafficking. That is not what the original laws struck down were even about. This is in the context of adults choosing their own sexual choices, without harming anyone)

 

[Gabbar]

It's not about pooning. Its about the right to choose what a person does with their body! Its ironic that in abortion fights, a woman has the right to choose. Her body, her choice. But if her choice is that she wants to make her sex a profession, she no longer has the right to choose. And this government went so far as to say we cannot consent. As if we are underage drinkers or child drivers or teens trying to wed. Apparently if you fuck or suck & love it, you are demeaned to nothing more than a poor mindless victim.

For clients, it's a similar reduction of choice. Why can't a man pay for professional services? Why can't a disabled person hire professional sex? Since when can a man not decide for himself what to do with his own penis or money?

(all of this is assumed on consensual sex work! C-36 tainted the actual premise of adult prostitution with underage/non-consensual/trafficking. That is not what the original laws struck down were even about. This is in the context of adults choosing their own sexual choices, without harming anyone)

Well said MPA2. When I was rebounding from a relationship a while ago, I found solace in some MPAs (regulars now). I didn't want to re-enter the dating scene and seeing MPAs was a perfect solution to complement my busy schedule. It has been such a good ride. Full flexibility. Assured results. And the girls are actually happy to see me and my money. Why the F*ck should anybody else have a say in this matter?!!! I'm happy, the girls are happy, the spa owners are happy, where is the victim here????

 

[icespot]

Really dude, have you forgotten everything that Peel did back in 2013 at AGS. You should read those reports, they have never said it is legal and boy are those kids hungry.

What all this really reminds me of is Noah's story. All though it is a pure work of fiction, it is really relevant to what is happening today. Remember he told everyone the flood was coming and to get into the arc, but no one did and when it was to late, Noah closed the door.

Actually in Peel massage parlours are legal!! Which means they have been deemed a fit and legal establishememt to offer whole body massages by the city of Peel. The massage attendants are licensed and they pay for that license. I'm guessing the city of Brampton will no longer be issuing licenses coming this new year then??

By the way, LE isn't going to just rush in a licensed massage parlour and start arresting people, they will have to have an undercover investigation and proof that sexual services were payed for!! And how they plan on doing that if the attendant is immune to all charges and the undercover LE being the paying customer is beyond my realm of knoweledge. They can't just rush into places and randomly arrest people for giving and/ or receiving a massage. Come on guys use your noodles.

 

[icespot]

This will make the third time I have posted this, but I feel the need to do it again.

Going forward, you'll be doing yourselves a huge favor by not asking for specific services.

The Justice Department's brief says "In particular, the consideration must be contingent on the provision of a particular sexual service and the contract or agreement must be entered into before the sexual service is provided." It also says "Sexual activity involving no expectation of getting paid for the services provided does not meet the test."

So basically if you are getting a massage from somebody (even just a regular RMT) and she suddenly starts doing something which you neither asked for nor implied that you would pay for, then you are *probably* on the right side of the law. This is basically the reasoning in the Ponomarev case.

The only acronym you will need to familiarize yourself with in the future is YMMV.

Wilful blindness is not an excuse under the law, it has been tried. As a matter of fact even mistake of fact has been done away as an acceptable excuse.

 

[icespot]

The only people who are not involved in MP that don't know what goes on in a MP are a handfull of terb members, all others including LE are well aware of activities and services offered.

See that is the whole problem with the new bill it will make that assumption. However, before all cases had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt on the merits of the evidence. It is almost like we are going backwards in jurisprudence.

 

[SuperCharge]

Yes I am serious dude!! Body rub parlours are LEGAL in Brampton!! Show me where it is not please and show me from before 2013 I am fully aware of the law

Really dude, have you forgotten everything that Peel did back in 2013 at AGS. You should read those reports, they have never said it is legal and boy are those kids hungry.

What all this really reminds me of is Noah's story. All though it is a pure work of fiction, it is really relevant to what is happening today. Remember he told everyone the flood was coming and to get into the arc, but no one did and when it was to late, Noah closed the door.

 

[icespot]

Since we all anonymous, we will never know about motivations.

So again I encourage everyone to do their own research. Go talk to the police. Read the legislation again. Read the government primer again. Read the cases cited. Come up with a list of questions. Talk to a lawyer.

And when I say hysteria, I mean stuff like "I don't want to be the poster boy after being raided by a SWAT team." If you want to quit, then quit. But base it on something that is grounded in reality IMO.

The law has changed and it is now a crime to go to a massage parlour. That is a fact that is a reality and a singularity. Now, you can disagree with that law and even choose to break it. However, the fact of the matter remains that it is illegal now. I posted this earlier, but hey cops are pretty closed minded individuals and this so clearly expresses how they think,

I am the police, and I'm here to arrest you. You've broken the law. I did not write the law. I may even disagree with the law but I will enforce it. No matter how you plead, cajole, beg or attempt to stir my sympathies, nothing you do will stop me from placing you in a steel cage with gray bars. If you run away I will chase you. If you fight me I will fight back. If you shoot at me I will shoot back. By law I am unable to walk away. I am a consequence. I am the unpaid bill. I am fate with a badge and a gun. Behind my badge is a heart like yours. I bleed, I think, I love, and yes I *can* be killed. And although I am but one man, I have thousands of brothers and sisters who are the same as me. They will lay down their lives for me, and I them. We stand watch together. The thin-blue-line, protecting the prey from the predators, the good from the bad. We are the police.

 

[MPAsquared]

Well said MPA2. When I was rebounding from a relationship a while ago, I found solace in some MPAs (regulars now). I didn't want to re-enter the dating scene and seeing MPAs was a perfect solution to complement my busy schedule. It has been such a good ride. Full flexibility. Assured results. And the girls are actually happy to see me and my money. Why the F*ck should anybody else have a say in this matter?!!! I'm happy, the girls are happy, the spa owners are happy, where is the victim here????

That is a beautiful thing!!

 

[icespot]

Yes I am serious dude!! Body rub parlours are LEGAL in Brampton!! Show me where it is not please. I am fully aware of the law

I wasn't talking about just one part of your post my dear. I was more talking about your comment on LE and how they felt. :thumb:

 

[icespot]

Well said MPA2. When I was rebounding from a relationship a while ago, I found solace in some MPAs (regulars now). I didn't want to re-enter the dating scene and seeing MPAs was a perfect solution to complement my busy schedule. It has been such a good ride. Full flexibility. Assured results. And the girls are actually happy to see me and my money. Why the F*ck should anybody else have a say in this matter?!!! I'm happy, the girls are happy, the spa owners are happy, where is the victim here????

Your experience is the same for many of us. We found something that has helped us deal with the hardships of life. Unfortunately laws like c-36 are written by individuals that could not possibly understand what our life is like.

I have met some of the most amazing people in this hobby and even though I no longer visit MPs. I find it sad that if one day again I find myself in need of comfort, I will no longer be able to count on such a wonderful experience.

 

[TeasePlease]

Oh they know. Everyone knows loneliness.

They don't care (and are probably hypocrites).