DNA has perhaps solved the Whitechapel Murders

GPIDEAL

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The search turn back on the royal family:



Was It Aaron Kosminski? Jack the Ripper DNA Claims Get Ripped

By Alan Boyle


Does DNA analysis prove conclusively that a deranged Polish barber named Aaron Kosminski was behind the famous "Jack the Ripper" murders of the 19th century? The claim has stirred up a hue and cry among professional and amateur sleuths who have been following the case for decades — proving only that the evidence is far from conclusive.

"Literally, we see articles like this a couple of times a year, but this one has gone viral," said Stephen P. Ryder, executive editor of "Casebook: Jack the Ripper," an online database and forum for so-called "Ripperologists."

In a newly published book titled "Naming Jack the Ripper," amateur historian (and Ripper tour operator) Russell Edwards says he's certain that the DNA findings have solved a long-mysterious string of murders that terrorized the seamier streets of London starting in 1888. "Put the case to bed," he told ITV News. "We've done this."


But the chain of evidence would never hold up in a court: It's based on fresh analysis of DNA recovered from a century-old bloodstained scarf linked to one of Jack the Ripper's victims, Catherine Eddowes. Edwards' scientific collaborator, Jari Louhelainen of Liverpool John Moores University, has linked some of the DNA from the stains to the genetic signature of Eddowes' distant relatives. Another DNA signature, purportedly attributed to semen on the scarf, was linked to relatives of Kosminski.

Ripperologists have known about the scarf, as well as Kosminski's status as a suspect, for years. The new twist has to do with the DNA tests. "There's kind of a 'CSI Effect' going on," Ryder said. "People hear 'DNA,' and they think it's 100 percent solved."

It's not solved, as Ripperologists are only too happy to point out in the Casebook forum.

"I would dearly love to see a fully referenced, scientific, juried account of the testing and the associated processes," one commenter wrote. "It's intriguing, but as others have pointed out, there are so many issues even beyond the DNA. If anything, it's raising more questions, not generating answers."

The arguments over back-and-forth changes in the Wikipedia page for "Jack the Ripper" became so heated that the page has been protected from editing.

Debate over DNA

One of the reasons for the controversy has to do with the limitations of the DNA test that was used. Louhelainen could recover the genetic signature only from mitochondrial DNA, or mtDNA, rather than the nuclear DNA that serves as a unique identifier.

MtDNA is passed down from a mother to her children, and many people can share the same mtDNA signature. The signature linked to Kosminski, T1a1, is a relatively common subtype. Thus, the determination doesn't mean much unless the signature can be narrowed down to a rarer subtype, or unless additional evidence can be brought to bear (as was the case for identifying the remains of Russia's Czar Nicholas II and his family).

A larger question has to do with the scarf's history: It's been open to contamination for decades, and it's not even clear that it was really left behind by Eddowes (or her killer) after the 1888 murder. "In the community of so-called experts, it's not really considered evidence," Ryder said.

Another 'Case Closed' moment?

Then there's the fact that Kosminski doesn't match up all that well with descriptions of the killer by contemporary witnesses. He was just 23 years old and reportedly slight of build. In contrast, witnesses have described a heavier-built, somewhat older man as skulking around the scenes of the crimes.

Kosminski has long been on the list of usual Ripper suspects, thanks largely to references to a "Kosminski' in the writings of investigators, but many modern-day Ripperologists are doubtful he could have pulled off one of history's most infamous strings of serial killings.

"If it actually was Kosminski, this guy was a borderline raving lunatic," Ryder said. "This was not a criminal mastermind by any means."

Ryder said the latest claims were reminiscent of another "Case Closed" moment in the tale of Jack the Ripper — the time in 2002 when crime novelist Patricia Cornwell declared that Victorian-era painter Walter Sickert was the killer, based in part on mtDNA analysis of a licked stamp.

Since then, a string of other suspects (including a woman dubbed "Jackie the Ripper") have had their time in the historical spotlight. This just happens to be Aaron Kosminski's turn.

"Until I see anything more than what I've seen so far, it's like the Patricia Cornwell case," Ryder said.

Kosminski was already a suspect.

He had mental issues.

He was a hair dresser and had access to scissors.

He was prone to 'self-abuse'.

Maybe he jerked off on that shawl?

Sounds persuasive to me. You have no evidence it was a member of the RF (not that I give a shit about the RF - there's a theory that the one who abdicated the throne hired killers to get rid of a Cdn gold-mining magnate who fucked around with his wife in the Bahamas).
 

GPIDEAL

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To be fair...people see scientific evidence of dinosaurs and evolution and are like "fuck that shit! 6 days and there we all were".

I bet the Royal Family fabricated all the neanderthal skeletons too...the bastards!!
Ok but we don't those people seriously.
 

danmand

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Danmand, you are so sure, even in light of this scientific evidence?
Eyewitness accounts point towards a well fed and plump royal.

Then there's the fact that Kosminski doesn't match up all that well with descriptions of the killer by contemporary witnesses. He was just 23 years old and reportedly slight of build. In contrast, witnesses have described a heavier-built, somewhat older man as skulking around the scenes of the crimes.


Framing a member of the proletariat has always been a trademark of the royals.
 

GPIDEAL

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You can't handle the truth, man! And it's clear as freaking day if only you had the eyes to see! A member of the Royal Family was indeed Jack the Ripper, and they were able to speed away from the scene of the crime every time unmolested. Stupid sheeple!

And on a related note...





I hear ya and sometimes that's the case, but what you've posted is an exaggeration.

Sometimes conspiracy theories are borne when a conclusion (or so called 'evidence') is called into question based on the facts. Example, that silly Single Bullet Theory.
 

GPIDEAL

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Eyewitness accounts point towards a well fed and plump royal.

Then there's the fact that Kosminski doesn't match up all that well with descriptions of the killer by contemporary witnesses. He was just 23 years old and reportedly slight of build. In contrast, witnesses have described a heavier-built, somewhat older man as skulking around the scenes of the crimes.


Framing a member of the proletariat has always been a trademark of the royals.

Not saying the Royals are perfect, but I doubt a member of the Royal family has to butcher poor prostitutes and eat their kidneys to get plump.

Kosminski's semen is on the shawl. He was already sick, had access to shears as a hairdresser, and was prone to masturbation (ergo, semen on that shawl after he had his 'taste' of blood). He was also a misogynist.
 

danmand

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He was already sick, had access to shears , and was prone to masturbation. He was also a misogynist.
Seems to perfectly fit the members of the royal family; Consider prince Phillip and Chuck!
 

GPIDEAL

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Interesting. The JTR crimes are kind of a hobby of mine, have many books and visited the scenes of the crimes, such as they are today. I've always subscribed to the theory that Kosminski (or someone much like him) was the Ripper. The only thing nagging me about the story is that the semen stain could have been on the shawl prior to the murder. Eddowes, like all the victims, was after all a prostitute.

And yes, the Royal Family connection was thoroughly debunked quite some time ago.

Why would she want to get semen on that nice shawl*? Why only his? Seems like he got off on the murder and the sight of her blood on the shawl.

*(I realize that back then that they didn't have sanitary wipes, but that shawl was not a handkerchief but a fancy article of clothing.)
 

danmand

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DB123

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Her place
I'm no hairdresser, but I'm sure I can get my hands on a pair of shears and full disclosure, I may masturbate now and then.

Oh crap! I'm either JtR reincarnated or a lost member of the Royal Family
 

GPIDEAL

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I'm no hairdresser, but I'm sure I can get my hands on a pair of shears and full disclosure, I may masturbate now and then.

Oh crap! I'm either JtR reincarnated or a lost member of the Royal Family

Ya but back then, it's not like you could buy everything anywhere like today. Were hair-cutting shears a common household item?
 

DB123

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Ya but back then, it's not like you could buy everything anywhere like today. Were hair-cutting shears a common household item?
well then maybe I'm also a time traveler?

Don't make me over think my nonsense ;)
 

Aardvark154

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The search turn back on the royal family:



Was It Aaron Kosminski? Jack the Ripper DNA Claims Get Ripped

By Alan Boyle


Does DNA analysis prove conclusively that a deranged Polish barber named Aaron Kosminski was behind the famous "Jack the Ripper" murders of the 19th century? The claim has stirred up a hue and cry among professional and amateur sleuths who have been following the case for decades — proving only that the evidence is far from conclusive.

"Literally, we see articles like this a couple of times a year, but this one has gone viral," said Stephen P. Ryder, executive editor of "Casebook: Jack the Ripper," an online database and forum for so-called "Ripperologists."

In a newly published book titled "Naming Jack the Ripper," amateur historian (and Ripper tour operator) Russell Edwards says he's certain that the DNA findings have solved a long-mysterious string of murders that terrorized the seamier streets of London starting in 1888. "Put the case to bed," he told ITV News. "We've done this."


But the chain of evidence would never hold up in a court: It's based on fresh analysis of DNA recovered from a century-old bloodstained scarf linked to one of Jack the Ripper's victims, Catherine Eddowes. Edwards' scientific collaborator, Jari Louhelainen of Liverpool John Moores University, has linked some of the DNA from the stains to the genetic signature of Eddowes' distant relatives. Another DNA signature, purportedly attributed to semen on the scarf, was linked to relatives of Kosminski.

Ripperologists have known about the scarf, as well as Kosminski's status as a suspect, for years. The new twist has to do with the DNA tests. "There's kind of a 'CSI Effect' going on," Ryder said. "People hear 'DNA,' and they think it's 100 percent solved."

It's not solved, as Ripperologists are only too happy to point out in the Casebook forum.

"I would dearly love to see a fully referenced, scientific, juried account of the testing and the associated processes," one commenter wrote. "It's intriguing, but as others have pointed out, there are so many issues even beyond the DNA. If anything, it's raising more questions, not generating answers."

The arguments over back-and-forth changes in the Wikipedia page for "Jack the Ripper" became so heated that the page has been protected from editing.

Debate over DNA

One of the reasons for the controversy has to do with the limitations of the DNA test that was used. Louhelainen could recover the genetic signature only from mitochondrial DNA, or mtDNA, rather than the nuclear DNA that serves as a unique identifier.

MtDNA is passed down from a mother to her children, and many people can share the same mtDNA signature. The signature linked to Kosminski, T1a1, is a relatively common subtype. Thus, the determination doesn't mean much unless the signature can be narrowed down to a rarer subtype, or unless additional evidence can be brought to bear (as was the case for identifying the remains of Russia's Czar Nicholas II and his family).

A larger question has to do with the scarf's history: It's been open to contamination for decades, and it's not even clear that it was really left behind by Eddowes (or her killer) after the 1888 murder. "In the community of so-called experts, it's not really considered evidence," Ryder said.

Another 'Case Closed' moment?

Then there's the fact that Kosminski doesn't match up all that well with descriptions of the killer by contemporary witnesses. He was just 23 years old and reportedly slight of build. In contrast, witnesses have described a heavier-built, somewhat older man as skulking around the scenes of the crimes.

Kosminski has long been on the list of usual Ripper suspects, thanks largely to references to a "Kosminski' in the writings of investigators, but many modern-day Ripperologists are doubtful he could have pulled off one of history's most infamous strings of serial killings.

"If it actually was Kosminski, this guy was a borderline raving lunatic," Ryder said. "This was not a criminal mastermind by any means."

Ryder said the latest claims were reminiscent of another "Case Closed" moment in the tale of Jack the Ripper — the time in 2002 when crime novelist Patricia Cornwell declared that Victorian-era painter Walter Sickert was the killer, based in part on mtDNA analysis of a licked stamp.

Since then, a string of other suspects (including a woman dubbed "Jackie the Ripper") have had their time in the historical spotlight. This just happens to be Aaron Kosminski's turn.

"Until I see anything more than what I've seen so far, it's like the Patricia Cornwell case," Ryder said.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the Royal Family.


As to the real points raised in the article: actually Joseph Lavender a Polish immigrant salesman, was one of the last people to have seen Catherine Eddowes alive as she spoke with a man about 5ft 9in tall, with a small fair moustache. Several months afterwards he identified that man in a line-up as Aaron Kosminski.

Needless to say the DNA evidence might not obtain a conviction in a trial. If there has ever been a 126 year-old criminal case tried it certainly doesn't leap to my mind. The standards are different.

That said there remains a very strong circumstantial case: what are the odds of a shawl which from textile analysis is of Eastern European provenance of the right time period; with a blood splatter pattern of a slashed artery; with mitochondrial DNA of the same type as Catherine Eddowes' matrilineal descendant and having biological stains showing the same mitochondrial DNA type as matrilineal descendants of Aaron Kosminski's sister?
 

GPIDEAL

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It has absolutely nothing to do with the Royal Family.


As to the real points raised in the article: actually Joseph Lavender a Polish immigrant salesman, was one of the last people to have seen Catherine Eddowes alive as she spoke with a man about 5ft 9in tall, with a small fair moustache. Several months afterwards he identified that man in a line-up as Aaron Kosminski.

Needless to say the DNA evidence might not obtain a conviction in a trial. If there has ever been a 126 year-old criminal case tried it certainly doesn't leap to my mind. The standards are different.

That said there remains a very strong circumstantial case: what are the odds of a shawl which from textile analysis is of Eastern European provenance of the right time period; with a blood splatter pattern of a slashed artery; with mitochondrial DNA of the same type as Catherine Eddowes' matrilineal descendant and having biological stains showing the same mitochondrial DNA type as matrilineal descendants of Aaron Kosminski's sister?

I agree, and good point about Joseph Lavender's eye-witness account.

The heavy-set man 'skulking' around the scene of the crime has a legitimate reason for doing so. He's probably a fucking hobbyist and doesn't want to be incriminated. IOW, he isn't necessarily the murderer.
 

Aardvark154

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there's a theory that the one who abdicated the throne hired killers to get rid of a Cdn gold-mining magnate who fucked around with his wife in the Bahamas).
The most plausible theory I've heard of applying modern investigative techniques to the murder of Sir Harry Oakes is that it shows strong signs of being a Santería linked ritual murder. Count Alfred de Marigny his son-in-law was tried for and acquitted of the Murder. About the most that can be said of the Duke of Windsor's involvement as Governor of the Bahamas is that he meddled in the case. The Duke believed that the Bahamanian police lacked the expertise to investigate the crime, he then personally invited two detectives from the Miami Police Department to investigate the case rather than requesting British Security personnel stationed Washington and New York. The two detectives from Miami were to put it mildly, incompetent.
 

danmand

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Then until you have evidence to the contrary to rebut this recent scientific finding, nobody will take you seriously.
Oh no, that is serious.
 

danmand

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It has absolutely nothing to do with the Royal Family.
I know you would say that, but you were not there, were you? Can you prove that Aaron Kosminski was not hired by a member of the royal family to do the dirty work, while the royal was wanking himself?

As a member of the bar, I expected you to consider Aaron Kosminski innocent until convicted in a court of law.
 

DB123

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I know you would say that, but you were not there, were you? Can you prove that Aaron Kosminski was not hired by a member of the royal family to do the dirty work, while the royal was wanking himself?
Dude...really? Just how old are you that you were there?

Can you prove he was hired?

I'm all for asinine arguments based on next to nothing, but that's extra weak right there
 

danmand

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Dude...really? Just how old are you that you were there?

Can you prove he was hired?

I'm all for asinine arguments based on next to nothing, but that's extra weak right there
I consider Aaron Kosminski innocent until convicted in a court of law. Please do not ruin his good name, when he is unable to defend himself.
 
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