Is WW3 coming ?

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jjz

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WW3 will happen when Russia and China buddy up together and attack or invade countries like Japan, Taiwan , Korea ..but i dont see this happening anytime soon
Taiwan is not a country. It's the Republic of China.
 

BlueLaser

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http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articl...urce=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer#trending

Article predicting direct Russian invasion of Eastern Ukraine and assessing Russian capabilities.
Also an article of rampant speculation being treated as fact. Almost reads like fiction. Interesting enough fiction to get a bunch of people to sign up at the 40% discount I was offered when I visited the site. Someone's certainly trying to sell something.

But it brings up an interesting point, one I touched on previously. If indeed the Ukrainian military is as poor as they say it is, how are they able to afford to keep their fighter jets in the air? And why? Air superiority is important in a war, I agree. You use your jets to keep their jets on the ground. Except in this case, the enemy has no jets, but apparently a strong AA defense. Next to keeping navy groups, like carriers and their ilk, deployed, jets are the most expensive thing a military can operate. Plus, you don't fight anti-aircraft with aircraft, just like you don't send a tank to take out an anti-tank gun. For the cost of operating their Air Force the way they have been, Ukraine could instead be sending swarms of their 1 million man military in with rifles. An infanteer on the ground is much more discerning than a jet anyway. The way Ukraine is dealing with these rebels makes no sense strategically or tactically unless the end goal is war. Why would Ukraine want war? Someone isn't telling us something. Ukraine is not going about dealing these insurgents in a smart way. What their actions are doing is stirring the pot. The west becomes more pro west and more angry at the insurgents, the insurgents get small victories to bolster them and more anti-west.

I have been involved in a multitude of war games that involved heavy air defences. Never once have aircraft deliberately been sent near the area until the bulk of the AA had been eliminated as part of a planned action. On occasion I've been "required" to overfly areas with some AA, but only when boots were on the ground and in trouble and only after the enemy AA had been significantly weakened. In those cases, we were low, fast and engaged in close ground support that was extremely risky and always danger close. Not once was I targeted significantly by AA, but I was often peppered by simulated small arms. AA shouldn't be taking down Ukrainian jets, and these jets getting shot down should be accompanied by stories of entire regiments being overwhelmed, pinned down and wiped out. Something is not right and none of the western powers seem concerned about Ukraine's actions. Red flags should be shooting up all over the place for anyone that understands warfare. The fact that they aren't is how I know something is wrong. We aren't getting the whole story.

As for Alaska, isn't the Russian argument the same one the natives are making about land deals that their ancestors made? Is it really that different than the argument we have over our little island in the north? This isn't propaganda at the scale only Russia can master aimed at the gullible, this is a typical land claim dispute we see all over the world. If you're upset simply because Russia is the one involved, you're being pretty naive and showing an obvious bias.
 

BlueLaser

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Taiwan is not a country. It's the Republic of China.
Taiwan is the common term for the state officially known as the Republic of China. There's no need to be so technical. If someone mentions Austria, are you going to say Austria is not a country, it's the Republic of Austria, or that Belgium isn't a country, it's the Kingdom of Belgium? We'd abbreviate RoC as China, but that would be a little confusing.
 

Carvher

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Apr 13, 2010
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The issue is that Putin sells his image to his homeland people as a "tough guy" who will make Russia as strong as the USSR used to be. It's all a bluff because modern Russia has only a fraction of the strength of the old Soviet Union. But he's based his political career on it.

I believe this 100%
 

jjz

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Dec 30, 2011
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Taiwan is the common term for the state officially known as the Republic of China. There's no need to be so technical. If someone mentions Austria, are you going to say Austria is not a country, it's the Republic of Austria, or that Belgium isn't a country, it's the Kingdom of Belgium? We'd abbreviate RoC as China, but that would be a little confusing.[/Q

LOL.

Taiwan is not a Country.

I consider it the "Quebec" of China or better yet the "Scotland" of UK.
 

rhuarc29

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Apr 15, 2009
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I think economic sanctions will continue and be upgraded. It won't be WW3 but Israel and Hamas have had wars before and this one will end within a few weeks/months possibly with interventional peace talks from other countries.
The Ukraine is festering and may require outside troops to establish boundaries. I don't predict doom and gloom though. WW3 would happen if North Korea sent a uranium missile into forein soil or Iraq or Pakistan did the same. inmho
I can't see North Korea causing WW3. Any significant action on their part would lose them any allies they still have and they'd be crushed. They'd already be falling into oblivion with their aging military if it weren't for their "charismatic" leader and his need to draw attention to himself.

Pakistan is a little gloomier and the risk a little greater. They'd have to go suicidal to cause any significant damage, because they'd have no hope of victory. Might just doom us all though.

No, WW3 can only be started by a conflict between power players, like the United States, China and Russia.
 

nottyboi

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The question I have not seen discussed in the media, is what effort the Ukanian govt has made to settle the conflict with the rebels peacefully. The change of govt was a coup, so the Russian ethnics do have a legit concern. If they do this by force there will be massive damage and death. If it got to ugly Russia would intervene. So a peaceful resolution is the best for everyone.
 

BlueLaser

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LOL.

Taiwan is not a Country.

I consider it the "Quebec" of China or better yet the "Scotland" of UK.
A comparison to Quebec or Scotland is lacking. Quebec and Scotland don't have their own passports, no independent immigration control and don't have their own money. Both have also been completely under the control of their parent nations while RoC has never once in its entire history been subjected to PRC rule. Aside from the PRC, no major nation really thinks of RoC as an organized, unincorporated territory, they all just play along because it's easier. But this is a "debate" that's off topic in this thread. Make your rebuttal, it'll get no argument from me, and start a new thread if you'd like to discuss it.
 

danmand

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Nov 28, 2003
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WHAT IF THERE’S A REAL WAR IN UKRAINE?

by Eric Margolis August 9, 2014

Russia and the West are at war – over fruits, veggies, pork and bank loans. The cause is Ukraine, a vast emptiness formerly unknown to the western world, but now deemed a vital national security interest worthy of a risking a very scary war.

Economic embargos such as those launched by the US against Russia may seem relatively harmless. They are not. Trade sanctions are a form of strategic warfare that is sometimes followed by bullets and shells.

Think, for good example, of the 1940 US embargo against Japan that led Tokyo’s fateful decision to go to war rather than face slow, economic strangulation. How many Americans know that President Roosevelt closed the Panama Canal to Japanese shipping to enforce demands that Tokyo get out of Manchuria and China?

Frighteningly, today, there are senior officials in Washington and Moscow who are actually considering a head on clash in Ukraine between Russian forces and NATO – which is an extension of US military power.

Intensifying attacks by Ukrainian government forces (quietly armed and financed by the US) against pro-Russian separatists and civilian targets in eastern Ukraine are increasing the danger that Moscow may intervene militarily to protect Ukraine’s ethnic Russian minority.

A full-scale military clash could begin with a Russian-declared ‘no fly’ zone over the eastern Ukraine such as the US imposed over Iraq. Moscow’s aim would be to stop the bombing and shelling of Ukrainian rebel cities by Kiev’s air force.

Russia’s leader, President Vladimir Putin, is under growing popular pressure to stop the killing of pro-Russian Ukrainians – who were Russian citizens until 1991.

The US just launched air strikes against northern Iraq, ostensibly to protect Yazidis, a small religious cult based on Zoroastrianism which many Iraqis call devil worshipers. Though these strikes were clearly aimed at bolstering US-backed Kurds against the advancing Islamic State forces, Washington called them a humanitarian attack to protect Iraqi Christians and Yazidis – perfectly in keeping with the administration’s claim to be waging humanitarian warfare.

NATO could quickly deploy its potent air power against Russian aircraft. US and NATO aircraft flying from new bases in Romania, Bulgaria and Poland could seriously challenge the Russian Air Force over the Russia-Ukraine border region. More US warplanes would be rushed into Eastern Europe. Russian air defenses are strong and its air bases are close to the sphere of action. Still, NATO air power has a technological superiority over the Russian Air Force and better trained pilots.

On the ground, Russia has a slight advantage. It has 16,000-18,000 troops on the Ukraine border made up of mechanized infantry, armor, mobile air defense and artillery. A competent but small force, and hardly a menace to Europe, as the pro-war media howl. Compare this small number of troops to the Soviet 1st Ukrainian Front alone in 1944, made up of six armies and thousands of tanks and heavy guns.

Russia could fight border skirmishes but certainly not retake Ukraine with this paltry force. Russia’s once 200-division army which boasted some 50,000 tanks is today a shadow of its past: 205,000 active soldiers and 80,000 indifferent reservists spread over the world’s larges nation. Russia, as always, has excellent heavy artillery and good tanks, but nothing compared to WWII when Soviet 152mm guns and rocket batteries were lined up wheel-to-wheel for kilometers.

Any attempt by NATO to capture Crimea would likely be defeated by Russian air, naval and land force. The constricted, shallow Black Sea could prove a death trap for US warships. Sevastopol (with Leningrad and Stalingrad) were named a Hero City of the Soviet Union for its heroic defense in WWII

Ukraine’s cobbled together army, about 64,000 men, suffers from poor training, logistical problems, and weak leadership. During Soviet days, it numbered over 700,000 with the cutting edge of Russian weapons. Today, the army is stiffened by foreign mercenaries and far-rightists from Kiev. Even so, it could not stand up to Russia’s better-armed, better-equipped troops.

What about NATO? In 1970, the US Army had about 710,000 soldiers in Europe, mostly based in Germany. Today, US has only 27,500 German-based troops left, largely non-combat support units. At best, the US could probably assemble two weak combat brigades – about 5,500 men total – to rush to Ukraine. The rest of US forces are based in Afghanistan, Kuwait, the Gulf, South Korea and Japan, or at stateside. Moving them to Europe would take about six months.

But the US still retains large airbases in Germany that could support military intervention in Ukraine. Lately, small US and NATO contingents have been quietly inserted into East Europe and the Baltic region – large enough to spark a war, but too small to win one.

Since the end of the Cold War, the US armed forces, NATO, and Russia’s military have been sharply reduced by budget cuts. Until the Ukraine crisis, there was almost no prospect of war in Europe. Ardor for war among Europeans and Russians is very low.

Britain, now a toothless old lion, would support the US in Ukraine with a few men and warplanes; so would France, Denmark, Poland, Canada and Holland, but to a limited or even token degree. Germany and Turkey, NATO’s two heavy hitters, want to avoid any conflict with Russia and might well stand aside. They both do very large business with Russia and are unhappy about the manufactured Ukraine crisis.

So any military clash in Ukraine would initially be limited in scope and intensity. But a confrontation could quickly escalate into a dangerous crisis. The Cold War taught that nuclear –armed powers must never fight directly, only through proxies.

Nothing is worth the risk of nuclear war, even a limited one.
Let the Ukrainians sort out their differences by referendum.
On the 100th anniversary of World War I, we again see our leaders playing with matches.

copyright Eric S. Margolis 2014
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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Also an article of rampant speculation being treated as fact. Almost reads like fiction. Interesting enough fiction to get a bunch of people to sign up at the 40% discount I was offered when I visited the site. Someone's certainly trying to sell something.

But it brings up an interesting point, one I touched on previously. If indeed the Ukrainian military is as poor as they say it is, how are they able to afford to keep their fighter jets in the air? And why? Air superiority is important in a war, I agree. You use your jets to keep their jets on the ground. Except in this case, the enemy has no jets, but apparently a strong AA defense. Next to keeping navy groups, like carriers and their ilk, deployed, jets are the most expensive thing a military can operate. Plus, you don't fight anti-aircraft with aircraft, just like you don't send a tank to take out an anti-tank gun. For the cost of operating their Air Force the way they have been, Ukraine could instead be sending swarms of their 1 million man military in with rifles. An infanteer on the ground is much more discerning than a jet anyway. The way Ukraine is dealing with these rebels makes no sense strategically or tactically unless the end goal is war. Why would Ukraine want war? Someone isn't telling us something. Ukraine is not going about dealing these insurgents in a smart way. What their actions are doing is stirring the pot. The west becomes more pro west and more angry at the insurgents, the insurgents get small victories to bolster them and more anti-west.

I have been involved in a multitude of war games that involved heavy air defences. Never once have aircraft deliberately been sent near the area until the bulk of the AA had been eliminated as part of a planned action. On occasion I've been "required" to overfly areas with some AA, but only when boots were on the ground and in trouble and only after the enemy AA had been significantly weakened. In those cases, we were low, fast and engaged in close ground support that was extremely risky and always danger close. Not once was I targeted significantly by AA, but I was often peppered by simulated small arms. AA shouldn't be taking down Ukrainian jets, and these jets getting shot down should be accompanied by stories of entire regiments being overwhelmed, pinned down and wiped out. Something is not right and none of the western powers seem concerned about Ukraine's actions. Red flags should be shooting up all over the place for anyone that understands warfare. The fact that they aren't is how I know something is wrong. We aren't getting the whole story.

As for Alaska, isn't the Russian argument the same one the natives are making about land deals that their ancestors made? Is it really that different than the argument we have over our little island in the north? This isn't propaganda at the scale only Russia can master aimed at the gullible, this is a typical land claim dispute we see all over the world. If you're upset simply because Russia is the one involved, you're being pretty naive and showing an obvious bias.
You should probably read some of those "biased" news articles that I am ignorant enough to stoke my anti Russian prejudices with. Among other things, those articles will tell you stuff like:

1. Ukraine had an infantry brigade overwhelmed and forced into Russia due to being isolated and trapped against the Russian border by the separatists. It ran out of ammunition and could not get re supplied by air due to the separatists' AA weapons. I guess that's what "overwhelmed, pinned down and wiped out" signified. Happened a couple of days ago. That's what all the overflying was about. And the air losses. A couple of other infantry brigades fought free and got out of the trap.

2. Ukraine doesn't have a "million man" military. It is set at 70,000 - about the size of Canada's. But it has now been augmented with volunteers and is probably 20 or 30,000 larger. It is reintroducing conscription, but the conscripts are only getting a couple of weeks training before being sent to the front.

3. Re the article I linked, it's a reputable periodical that also appears as a print edition. You can buy it at Indigo. And many of its articles are "speculative". They are also written by people with some credentials, as are all such specialist publications. It's like all on-line news and opinion services. You read the opinion and agree with them or not. Just like I do.

4. Alaska is different from native land claims, because it involves an attempt to deny what everyone to this date considered a done deal, with Russia claiming the USA falsified evidence - a claim suddenly made 150 years after the fact and in the middle of a political confrontation with the USA and without any hint in the intervening years that there was anything amiss. IIRC, Canada's dispute w Denmark over a little island off Greenland involved the interpretation of a treaty that both sides recognized as valid.
 

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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The question I have not seen discussed in the media, is what effort the Ukanian govt has made to settle the conflict with the rebels peacefully. The change of govt was a coup, so the Russian ethnics do have a legit concern. If they do this by force there will be massive damage and death. If it got to ugly Russia would intervene. So a peaceful resolution is the best for everyone.
If you just read the articles I post, you would answer your own question. Poroshenko called a unilateral week-long ceasefire and attempted to work out a deal. The separatists largely ignored the ceasefire and kept shooting at the government troops. So after a week, Poroshenko called off the ceasefire and let his guys attack. All happened about 3 weeks ago. Lots of media coverage. Notty just wasn't paying attention.

Let me help you a little more. The "Russian ethnics" aren't the guys wearing the cammo uniforms and masks and carrying AK's. The Russian ethnics are mainly heading off into refugee camps right now. The "separatists" are mainly imported troops from Russia - Cossacks and Chechens - and they're officered by Russian army intelligence guys. And their instructions are not to negotiate, but simply to hold out as long and do as much damage as possible to Donbas to teach Poroshnko some respect for Putin and to do as he's told.

I'm going to help you out with a link to help you understand.


The commander of pro-Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine was once fond of using social media to boast about his fighters' victories -- large or small -- over Ukraine's military forces.

But as Kyiv has moved to surround the last bastions of rebel control, Igor Girkin, known by his nom-de-guerre, Strelkov, or "Shooter," seems to have soured.

With Moscow placing as many as 20,000 Russian military personnel along the border with eastern Ukraine, but so far resisting his call for a full-scale "peacekeeping" mission, Girkin is now lashing out at his own supporters for the military losses.

In a post on Vkontakte, Russia's most popular social network, the former military reenactor, whom Kyiv accuses of working for Russia's Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU), announced that Ukrainian forces had taken the strategically important town of Krasnyy Luch.

The self-proclaimed separatist republic of Donetsk is "fully surrounded" Girkin says, before tearing into a brigade of pro-Russian Cossacks.

"The Cossacks, keeping with tradition, ran," he says while facetiously congratulating them for recent defeats. "They are awaiting new great achievements. The brilliant Donetsk Cossack battle path has been marked by landmark achievements like [their] surrender of Krasnyy Lyman in one day, the surrender without a fight of Poposna, the surrender of Debaltseve, and the surrender without a fight of Fashchivka. Now Krasnyy Luch has joined the list. Hooray! We will wait for new achievements."

http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-rebels-military-situation-frustration-strelkov/26522352.html

Strelkov, the leader is a Muscovite and a Russian military intelligence operative. Proven fact. "Cossacks" are Russians. From either the Don region around Rostov or the Kuban. They're not Ukrainian either.
 

HappynSmiling

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I completely agree with you on every point except for the Crimea. Yes, in short prospective it is gone, but the logistical and communication issues which brought Crimea to Ukraine in the first place are still there: no water for agriculture other than from Ukraine, no roads other that through Ukraine etc.

But I agree that the fate of Crimea is not currently on the table. But the fate of the Europe is. And not only Europe. Many Russians consider Alaska to be Russian land and think it being stolen by the US...
On Crimea: They are building a bridge actually two bridges. The people will never go back as most of them 95+% consider themselves Russian and wanted to be in Russia for the past 23 years.

On Alaska: Who told you that? That's nonsense!!!
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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On Crimea: They are building a bridge actually two bridges. The people will never go back as most of them 95+% consider themselves Russian and wanted to be in Russia for the past 23 years.

On Alaska: Who told you that? That's nonsense!!!
I agree w you re Crimea.

Re Alaska, there is some stuff on the Internet and in Russian media. Will it ever be a real diplomatic claim? Almost certainly not, as it is groundless and a hoax. But it serves to piss off a lot of Russians who already dislike the US and this bolsters Putin's position.
 

HappynSmiling

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Strelkov, the leader is a Muscovite and a Russian military intelligence operative. Proven fact. "Cossacks" are Russians. From either the Don region around Rostov or the Kuban. They're not Ukrainian either.
So what? Kiev is filled with pentagon consultants and instructors, US flag is flying over SBU (Ukranian FBI/CIA), Kiev also confirmed that mercenaries engage in battle. Double standards?
 

mandrill

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Aug 23, 2001
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Good God, the Second Coming must be imminent, I agree with Danmand and Eric Margolis!
That's because Margolis actually gets as much as 25% of his facts correct this time and therefore his horseshit appears unusually convincing. I'm sure he will revert to form in his next rant.
 

mandrill

monkey
Aug 23, 2001
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So what? Kiev is filled with pentagon consultants and instructors, US flag is flying over SBU (Ukranian FBI/CIA), Kiev also confirmed that mercenaries engage in battle. Double standards?
But the Ukrainian army is still composed of Ukrainians. The Donetsk and Lugansk army appears to be largely from Russia. That's the difference.

And I think your allegations about the the Pentagon and the US flag are premature. Maybe a year from now. But right now, the US is still keeping its distance.
 

HappynSmiling

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But the Ukrainian army is still composed of Ukrainians. The Donetsk and Lugansk army appears to be largely from Russia. That's the difference.

And I think your allegations about the the Pentagon and the US flag are premature. Maybe a year from now. But right now, the US is still keeping its distance.
15-20% are from Russia the rest are Ukranians. Look at it realistically, if Russia really invaded Ukraine they would use heavy weaponery (jets, artillery etc.) and the war would be over long time ago (it would be one of those 5 day wars) that's what you want to do with a war especially if you have troops on the ground. But that is not the case. No heavy weapons and the war drags on. In fact you have hundreds of Ukranian solders escape to Russia and then return home! How do you explain that? Would you be able to escape to Germany from France when the former invaded the latter to save yourself? No, because that would not make any sense.

I'm not making allegations here there is video and photo evidence including videos from presidential house where US vice president is in the chair of Ukranian president telling Ukies what to do. That's some serious stuff if you are a politician.
 

Aardvark154

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I agree w you re Crimea.

Re Alaska, there is some stuff on the Internet and in Russian media. Will it ever be a real diplomatic claim? Almost certainly not, as it is groundless and a hoax. But it serves to piss off a lot of Russians who already dislike the US and this bolsters Putin's position.
As anyone who actually knows anything about the purchase of Alaska should know (and I know you do, this is a general comment):

The Russians were willing sellers, the U.S.A. was a willing buyer. Alaska (Russian North America) was just a tad too far for the lines of communication and support which had to go all the way across Siberia and then all the way along the Aleutian chain (a thousand miles right there), Russia was afraid that in any future conflict with Great Britain (and remember this was fully four decades before the diplomatic revolution which led to the Entente Cordiale) Great Britain with Canada now truly being "from sea to sea" was likely to seize Russian North America.
 
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