In case there was any doubt what motivates anti Israeli protesters

[fuji]

There is one million of arab refugees who left homes during the 1948 war.

726,000 not a million but close enough. There were also a roughly equal number of Jews living in Arab countries that fled to Israel and had their homes and property confiscated by Arab states. For some reason we never hear about compensation for them...

What I pointed out above was that the Arabs were not forced out, they were not ethnically cleansed. They chose to leave. Those who chose to stay became full citizens of Israel with full equality.

Some Jewish terrorist groups like Irgun bear responsibility for a few hundred deaths, but that number and those events were relatively insignificant against the 726,000 who left.

However, the false propaganda that spread about massacres, with Deir Yassin being the kernel of truth in what overall was a propaganda lie, likely had a very significant impact on their decision to leave voluntarily.

What I was pointing out was that the fear mongering propaganda was spread by the Arab league itself out of the belief that Israel could be delegitimized if Arabs refused to accept Jewish rule. It was the Arab side that encouraged them to leave. (And honestly that is STILL their strategy, they STILL prevent Palestinian refugees from integrating into host countries because they STILL believe in this strategy, since 48 they have done this).

They were not ethnically cleansed, the proof of which is that those who opted to stay were well treated and are still there as full citizens.

Why their descendants aren't allowed to return but the descendants of the ones who left 2000 years ago are allowed.

The individuals who fled have not been allowed to return so far because they continue to state through their recognized representatives, the PLO, that they are at war with the State.

As for their descendants, there is nothing in international law anywhere that would give the descendants of refugees immigration status in their parents former country.

And you continue to misrepresent Israel's preference for Jewish immigrants as a right of return, it isn't a right, it is an immigration category. Nations are entitled to decide what sort of immigrant they want to accept, immigration is a privilege, not a right. Israel could repeal that law if it decided it didn't want any more immigrants.

 

[fuji]

They didn't choose to leave permanently , their intention was to leave temporary until the war is over to go back but they were never allowed to do so.

Sure, that is true, and the war still isn't over. I expect when it is over that those still living indeed will be able to return. As of now PLO still hasn't signed a peace deal.

Certainly they wrongly believed that the invading Arab nations were going to crush the Jews and push them into the sea. The explicit Arab war goal at that time was ethnic cleansing, and they did. There are now effectively zero Jews left in the areas captured by Arab forces.

You can certainly argue that encouraging Arabs to reject Jewish rule and leave was a disastrously bad strategy for the Arabs, but it was an Arab strategy, not an ethnic cleansing by Israel or Haganah.

 

[fuji]

I already copied a link to the website of Israeli ministry of foreign affairs that say any jewish person has the right of return and isn't considered as an immigrant , are you going to tell me that the israeli governement is lying ?

I am telling you that is an immigration law passed by the Israeli Knesset. It is not a right. It could be repealed by the Knesset.

It is the same as saying that if you marry someone they have a "right" to become Canadian. Actually it isn't really a right, Canada has simply decided to allow that by creating an immigration category for immediate family. If for some crazy reason we wanted to stop family immigration we could repeal that bit of immigration law, so it isn't a real right.

The distinction would be insignificant if you weren't trying to claim that any random person who ever had an ancestor who lived in that part of the world should have a right to Israeli citizenship.

 

[basketcase]

The arabs who left during 1948 war were forced out of their homes,they didn't sell their land.....

And the Jews forced out of the old city of Jerusalem in 1948 by the Jordanian army?

(and for what it's worth, Jews were the largest religious group in the city of Jerusalem before 1900)

 

[basketcase]

There is one million of arab refugees who left homes during the 1948 war. This is a historical fact not very few as you claim.

711,000 (not a million) left, mostly out of fear but very few were forced out. 150,000 chose to stay and became Israeli citizens

Just an example, the city of Jaffa which is nowadays Tel Aviv

Another inaccuracy. Tel Aviv was built on land purchased by Jews near the city of Jaffa.

My point isn't to discuss who forced these people out of home and under which circumstances. You can't deny the historical fact that one million arabs left during the 1948 war, they didn't sell their land. Why their descendants aren't allowed to return.

So if decedents of Arabs who were afraid and fled have a right to go to those properties, do Jews who were forced out of Hebron and Jerusalem (and there is no doubt, they were actually forced out) or Jews who fled their Arab homes also entitled to that right? A couple major settlement blocks were Jewish property well before 1948 so if you are arguing for people who left under whatever circumstances getting back their property then you must support those settlements.

 

[basketcase]

No it is a right of return, the law itself is called right of return and this is what the website of israeli ministry of foreign affairs say:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/consularservices/pages/visas.aspx


The Law of Return, 5710 - 1950 determines the right of every Jew to immigrate to the State of Israel. The law is an expression of the connection between the Jewish people and their homeland. Jews returning to Israel are considered people who were away - or whose ancestors were away - from Israel, and are now returning to their country. With regard to the law, "A Jew is a person born to a Jewish mother, or who is a convert to Judaism, and is not a member of another religion."

So the israeli government doesn't consider them as immigrants but exiled citizens returning.
Now can you tell me which countries in the world grant citizenship upon landing ?
It took me 5 years to get canadian citizenship after I immigrated to Canada.

You're as funny as gryfin and grog, arguing something that your own source refutes.

 

[wigglee]

Protesters in France try to storm a synagogue chanting "Death to Jews" and "Hitler was Right".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-streets-after-night-of-protests-9617950.html

In Canada the antisemites usually try and hide behind the claim that they are only criticizing Israel, while hypocritically judging Israel by different rules than other countries. However it seems more and more are showing their true face, particularly in notoriously antisemitic Europe.

Dude....your paranoid delusions are getting the best of you. You better buy some more guns.

 

[fuji]

Dude....your paranoid delusions are getting the best of you. You better buy some more guns.

Right, I am just imagining the antisemitism inherent in some of the hate lies told around here. The guys calling Jews "perfidious" and "diseased" are not antisemitic at all. Neither are the folks fantasizing about ethnic cleansing all Jews from the middle east.

 

[Aardvark154]

So the israeli government doesn't consider them as immigrants but exiled citizens returning.
Now can you tell me which countries in the world grant citizenship upon landing ?
It took me 5 years to get canadian citizenship after I immigrated to Canada.

Last time I checked both Ireland and Greece had such a policy the only requirement being that you must have at least one Grandparent who was born there.

 

[fuji]

http://m.torontosun.com/2014/07/22/pro-palestine-protesters-take-to-the-hill

So I guess Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss is an anti-Semitic racist, then?

He certainly does not speak for the majority of Jews. His sect believes in a complete separation of religious practice from secular politics, a view most Jews would disagree with.

 

[AdamH]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4538259,00.html

I thought I'd present this to counter Fuji's argument (or at least the argument in the title of this Thread)...

On the left side of the Sderot HaNasi street were members of Hadash and Meretz who were waving red and green flags, as well as Israeli flags alongside Palestinian ones. They were carrying signs against the occupation and against racism, and called for the dismantling of settlements and the establishment of "a Palestinian state alongside Israel."

On the other side of the street, people waving Israeli flags were calling out "El el Israel," "Traitors to Gaza," "Death to terrorists," "Fifth column" and others. Many drivers passing by made derogatory exclamation at the left-wing protesters.

On Ma'ale Yitzhak road in Nazareth Illit, some 200 residents protested the rioting in neighboring Nazareth and in Wadi Ara. Protesters hurled stones and made derogatory calls against Israeli Arabs.

Plenty of racism to go around if you ask me..

 

[fuji]

So, do you speak for the majority of Jews, then?

Netanyahu speaks for a majority of Israelis.

 

[fuji]

I don't think he is an antisemite but he also represents a fringe group with radical religious beliefs not shared by 95 percent of Jews.

Netanyahu clearly speaks for the majority of Jews, at least in Israel.

 

[toguy5252]

How would you know what 95% of Jews believe? Do you speak for all Jews? Have you surveyed all Jews and concluded that 95% of all Jews don't share the same beliefs as the Rabbi?

So, if the Rabbi is not an anti-Semite racist, then what motivates him to protest the Israeli occupation of Gaza?

Again, no need to answer, just know that you should be more specific and not use blanket statements implying that anyone who protests the Israeli actions is an anti-Semite racist, which clearly not all of them are.

You are too funny. Dies the fact that some Jews oppose Israeli policy and support the Palestinians change the fact that people at demonstrations yelling or carrying signs that say kill the Jews or fire bombing synagogues are virulent antisemites? Not everyone who criticizes or opposes Israeli policy is an antisemite but people who fire bomb synagogues or who rally people to kill the Jews because they oppose Israeli policy are without doubt. I would have thought that was fairly obvious.

 

[fuji]

How would you know what 95% of Jews believe? Do you speak for all Jews? Have you surveyed all Jews and concluded that 95% of all Jews don't share the same beliefs as the Rabbi?

Yes we know that his sect that believes only the Messiah should create Israel or whatever is a fringe minority, and we know that Netanyahu was elected in a "survey".

 

[basketcase]

...

So I guess Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss is an anti-Semitic racist, then?

I'm trying to figure out the point of your question.

Jews like everyone else have a variety of opinions and there are clearly things about Israel that deserve criticism.

When the criticism is not directed at the Israeli government but rather are directed at Jews (with some very despicable comments) it clearly is racism.

When those criticizing Israel refuse to criticize Arabs or Palestinians for anything then racism is quite a possibility. The only question is whether the racism is because Israel is Jewish or because they see Arabs as incapable of moral decision making.

 

[fuji]

How do you know what 95% of Jews believe? I'm not talking about Netanyahu, but nice of you to try to deflect.

There are reasonably good censuses as to how many Jews belong to which sects. You can go google it. Not very many Jews believe that stuff about how the true State of Israel can only be brought about by the coming of the Messiah. Most Jews are either Reform, or Orthodox, or actually just secular and fairly non-religious.

 

[AdamH]

Netanyahu speaks for a majority of Israelis.

Wasn't Netanyahu only elected with like 23% of the popular vote?

 

[Aardvark154]

Two more episodes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...an-protesters-storm-pitch-ATTACK-players.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...e-dark-days-1938-chilling-dispatch-Paris.html

 

[fuji]

Wasn't Netanyahu only elected with like 23% of the popular vote?

Israel uses proportional representation, so no. And his approval rating is now around 70 percent.