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In case there was any doubt what motivates anti Israeli protesters

fuji

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Protesters in France try to storm a synagogue chanting "Death to Jews" and "Hitler was Right".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-streets-after-night-of-protests-9617950.html

In Canada the antisemites usually try and hide behind the claim that they are only criticizing Israel, while hypocritically judging Israel by different rules than other countries. However it seems more and more are showing their true face, particularly in notoriously antisemitic Europe.
 

shapeup1

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Protesters in France try to storm a synagogue chanting "Death to Jews" and "Hitler was Right".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-streets-after-night-of-protests-9617950.html

In Canada the antisemites usually try and hide behind the claim that they are only criticizing Israel, while hypocritically judging Israel by different rules than other countries. However it seems more and more are showing their true face, particularly in notoriously antisemitic Europe.
Antisemites masquerading as Antizionists

A lot of Jewish businesses were also attacked in France...like Kristallnacht . Glass broken.
http://news.yahoo.com/french-minister-slams-anti-semitic-gaza-protests-115055063.html

Turkish Jews urged to apologize for 'Israeli killing of Muslims'
Newspaper affiliated with Prime Minister Erdogan accuses Turkey's Jewish community of encouraging 'murder of children' in Gaza. Jews looking to leave Turkey.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4545097,00.html

Chicago Jews threatened http://www.timesofisrael.com/leaflets-threaten-chicago-jews-over-israel-in-gaza/

Its happening everywhere
 

Aardvark154

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Protesters in France try to storm a synagogue chanting "Death to Jews" and "Hitler was Right".
Sadly there was only about a twenty year period (1945-1967) when antisemitism on the Continent was considered déclassé. Regrettably, there is no doubt that it is back every bit as much as it was in the 1890's.
 

basketcase

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And you conveniently forgot to finish the sentence.
according to Serge Cwajgenbaum, secretary general of the European Jewish Congress, a Brussels-based organization representing European Jewry.

I am not doubting that there may be racist Nazi elements among the protesters but the majority of them in Europe (and it happened in many European cities not just Paris) have demonstrated to condemn Israeli actions not to pick on Jews.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/w...cursion-sets-off-protests-in-europe.html?_r=0

...
So because it is a Jew reporting it it doesn't count?

Well here's some online details from France.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/french-online-forums-overflow-with-anti-jewish-hate/

Here's some more reports
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/ever...zionism-has-nothing-to-do-with-anti-semitism/

And from germany
http://www.timesofisrael.com/wave-of-anti-semitic-rallies-hits-cities-across-germany/


And I'm sure that some genius is going to say that Israel's actions are creating anti-semitism when the reality is those views were already there; these protests merely give an environment where people feel comfortable expressing them.
 

toguy5252

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While is is true that not all anti-Zionists are anti-Semites all anti-Semites are anti-Zionist. It is also undoubtedly the case that many anti-Semites mask their antisemitism by couching it as anti-Zionism.
 

onthebottom

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Protesters in France try to storm a synagogue chanting "Death to Jews" and "Hitler was Right".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-streets-after-night-of-protests-9617950.html

In Canada the antisemites usually try and hide behind the claim that they are only criticizing Israel, while hypocritically judging Israel by different rules than other countries. However it seems more and more are showing their true face, particularly in notoriously antisemitic Europe.
So are you saying that anyone who criticizes Israel is anti-Semitic?
 

basketcase

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So are you saying that anyone who criticizes Israel is anti-Semitic?
Did you read any of the quotes? "Death to Jews" is not a criticism of Israel. Firebombing French Synagogues is not criticism of Israel. "Jews go to hell" or "Jesus killers" is not criticism of Israel. Either is “Hamas Hamas Jews to the gas!”, “Jewish shit”, or pictures of Hitler captioned "Yes we can."

There is obviously legitimate criticism of Israel but when people have a repeated focus on Israel and refuse to criticize Palestinians or Arabs when justified (like many posters here do) you definitely need to consider the possibility.
 

fuji

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If you think anti Russian racism is as prevalent around the world as antisemitism is, you are nuts. The only groups in Canada that face hate crimes as much or more than Jews do are Muslims and homosexuals. Racism specifically against Russians it some other ethnicity is rare.

I do not claim that every critic of Israel is antisemitic, but there are a lot of critics of Israel who are. You can usually figure out who they are because they start down the path of claiming Jews don't belong in the middle east, or that partition stole Arab lands, or various other historically inaccurate hate lies.

Some come right out and call Jews "perfidious" or other standard slurs but all claim to be criticizing "Zionism" or "Israel" rather than Jews, since overt racism is unfashionable these days.

In any case the hallmark is people who have one set of rules and principles to judge Israel by, and a different set of rules and principles for everybody else, with an undue focus on Israeli policies, while ignoring similar or worse behavior elsewhere, particularly when they start using these claims to slur the entire "Israeli" people.

A classic would be calling Israel "genocidal" over a few hundred deaths while ignoring the million dead in Iraq or the actual genocides in Sudan or Syria. A full on frothing hate monger like Gryfin will couple that with some claim that "Zionists" are "depraved" or whatnot, by which we all know he really means Jews.

But sure, there are non antisemitic critics too, people who generally are outraged by the terror attacks on Israel while genuinely disagreeing with settlement policy. The United Church broadly falls into this category as being a balanced critic of Israel, even suggesting boycotts of settlement products, while also repudiating things like the broad antisemitic BDS propaganda movement.
 

onthebottom

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Did you read any of the quotes? "Death to Jews" is not a criticism of Israel. Firebombing French Synagogues is not criticism of Israel. "Jews go to hell" or "Jesus killers" is not criticism of Israel. Either is “Hamas Hamas Jews to the gas!”, “Jewish shit”, or pictures of Hitler captioned "Yes we can."
I wasn't talking about that blatant racism, I was talking about the phrase I highlighted, odd that Fuji has ignored my question.....

There is obviously legitimate criticism of Israel but when people have a repeated focus on Israel and refuse to criticize Palestinians or Arabs when justified (like many posters here do) you definitely need to consider the possibility.
Could the same be true of those who only criticize the Palestinians, call them stone throwers, and never criticize Israel?

There are plenty of us who take issue with both sides, there are many (I dare say this would include you and Fuji) who only criticize one side.
 

AdamH

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There are people who oppose Israel because they are racist against Jews..

There are people who oppose Israel because of other fucking justifiable reasons (whether or not YOU agree with them is irrelevant)..

An Israeli isn't always a Jew, and a Jew isn't always Israeli..

Besides, what would you call the Jewish Israelis who questions the actions of their governments??? If you don't believe there are any then you're fucked.
 

fuji

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Do you deny the fact that this land was populated by more than 95% of arabs before the WW1 ? This is a historical fact.
What land? Jerusalem has been largely Jewish as far back as anyone has ever counted. While you can use population changes to quibble over where the borders should be, there has always been an area that has always been primarily Jewish, at least as early as 1840 or so when we started counting.

But the straight forward hate lie that you are dodging is that no land was stolen. Jews purchased land lawfully when they settled. The Arab argument is tantamount to wanting back land they sold without returning the money they were paid.

And the other aspect of the hate lie is that you are ignoring the million or so Jews who lived in Arab countries outside those borders, who had all their land confiscated by Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Syria, etc., when they fled to Israel during the war.

Claiming that Jews don't belong in the middle east covers up and denies that massive ethnic cleansing of Jews by Arabs, which is extraordinarily racist.

So if a jewish person has the right to return after 2000 years why a Palestinian who left in 1948 isn't allowed to return as he lived there before 1948 ?
No Jewish person is returning after 2000 years, no one lives that long, using the word return for anyone who was not himself born there is deceptive.

Let's be clear that we are talking about immigration to Israel and that Israel is choosing who it wants to accept as an immigrant from among people who are non citizen foreigners.

In the case of Palestinians who actually left Israel we are down to only a handful of people, who are outside Israel now because they claim to be at war with the country. When a peace deal is signed I would expect them to return, but we are only talking now about a few thousand elderly individuals at this point.

The claim that someone who was born in Syria and who has never set foot in Israel is returning there is as preposterous as saying someone is returning after 2000 years. They are both really immigrating, not returning, and the question is then what sort of immigration policy can Israel have, and international law and precedent pretty much allows Israel to set any policy it wants to.
 

basketcase

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Why don't we also talk about the pro-israel ones who vandalized a mosque in Thornhill Ontario and wrote "Arabs go home" " Fuck Gaza" besides a Star of David on the walls of the mosque.
That's pretty bad but amateur compared to 'Death to Jews'.
 

basketcase

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D...
There was an arab population living there before 1948 and the claim that the land was empty when first settlers came is also a historically inaccurate hate lie against palestinians....
Yet during the time of the Mandate, the Arab population more than doubled as well. Economic well being encourages immigration and many Arabs immigrated during that period partly thanks to the economic and agricultural innovations established in Jewish communities.
 

basketcase

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...

There are plenty of us who take issue with both sides, there are many (I dare say this would include you and Fuji) who only criticize one side.
You've obviously missed many of my posts. The settler movement is a detriment and their is racism in Israel. Obviously I see suicide bombers and trying to destroy another country as worse than house building and that is why I am more critical of Palestinian leadership.
 

AdamH

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That's pretty bad but amateur compared to 'Death to Jews'.
Really?!

To me both groups sound absolutely bonkers.. Who gives a shit what fucking specific nonsense they're shouting/spray painting on walls..

Insane is insane.. Period.
 

fuji

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Really?!

To me both groups sound absolutely bonkers.. Who gives a shit what fucking specific nonsense they're shouting/spray painting on walls..

Insane is insane.. Period.
In case you are new and just for the record I am probably one of the strongest advocates for Muslim rights in Canada. I am on the side supporting the right of Muslim women to wear the hijab and consistently on the side of employers finding ways to accommodate the religious needs of devout Muslim employees. I also strongly support the reinstatement of Mohammed Morsi in Egypt and I have put most of my charitable donations over the past year into MSF's Syria operation.

I say this to highlight that I believe anyone who brings a secular, western rights based approach to the Israel/Palestine conflict must necessarily support the democratically inclusive State of Israel on principle against serial human rights abusers and terrorists who prefer authoritarian theocracies and brutal dictatorships.

There are bigots on both sides. I'm happy to be able to smack down anti semites like Gryfin and put off by those like gladheather who do not support Israel so much as they just hate Muslims.
 

onthebottom

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You've obviously missed many of my posts. The settler movement is a detriment and their is racism in Israel. Obviously I see suicide bombers and trying to destroy another country as worse than house building and that is why I am more critical of Palestinian leadership.
Then I give you credit for some balance.
 

fuji

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The arabs who left during 1948 war were forced out of their homes,they didn't sell their land.
This is the Palestinian propaganda version but it is not what happened. Very few Arabs were forced out and those that were forced out tended to be militiamen. In most cases they left before Haganah captured their areas, and in most cases some stayed and some left. Those that stayed were well treated, remained in their homes, and form the modern Israeli Arab population.

The reason why they chose to leave is debated by historians and while there is no agreement the most commonly discussed factors are:

1. The Arab League asserted that any Arab who accepted Jewish rule was a traitor

2. The Arab side spread propaganda that any village that fell to Haganah faced slaughter and rape

3. The invading Arab nations asked them to leave to clear Muslim civilians out of the path of a what they believed would be a quick and decisive defeat of Jewish militias.

4. Jewish terrorists like Irgun really had massacred people at Deir Yassin

5. Jewish extremists also spread propaganda to Arabs about Deir Yassin

So some people on both sides were spreading false propaganda that massacres were common when in fact Deir Yassin was exceptional (in several places Haganah fought against Irgun to defend the Arab populations and in the end Haganah, which became IDF, disarmed Irgun at gunpoint with a surrender or die ultimatum).

But false propaganda was received by Arabs from extremists on both sides, together with Arab league threats that accepting Jewish rule was collaborating, and with demands from other Arabs that they leave. In addition to that, the ruling class of Arabs, the wealthy, had exited the conflict areas early on for safer homes in Europe and elsewhere in the Middle East.

Add on that the country was engulfed in a civil war that had all the sorts of collateral damage any war has, bullets and mortars flying, and in this context many left, but many also stayed and those who stayed were well treated and made equal citizens.

In any case, they weren't forced to leave and this who chose to stay weren't mistreated.

And you're talking about immigration. The israeli governement call it right of return not immigration. So if the right of return applies to let's assume the descendants of those who left 2000 years ago ( not arguing whether they are their descendants or not , this is another topic) ,it should apply to the descendants of the ones who left 66 years ago.
In reality it i not a right of return, there is a clause in the Israeli immigration law that creates an immigration category for anyone who is Jewish. I would point out that many nations give preference to immigrants of their own cultural or linguistic background, it is common around the world.

The actual right of return in the UN Declaration of Human Rights entitles people to enter their own country, it is not a mechanism that grants citizenship to a country you never lived in.

Though if you read Palestinian propaganda that fictionalize it into some inherited citizenship. A reading of the actual Declaration however clears that misconception up.
 
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