Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 hijacked, official says

wilbur

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Everything he did was contrary to what would keep the aircraft in flight. Now to be fair, the NTSB didn't officially call it suicide, they simply said the cause was Batouti's deliberate actions which he undertook for "unknown reasons". But if you deliberately crash an airplane into the ocean (the most dangerous thing to crash into) at 80% the speed of sound, it's pretty obvious you had no intention of walking away. And if you can come up with a term for killing yourself on purpose other than suicide, I'm all ears.
Egyptair always contested the NTSB conclusions. The Egyptian pilots association asked help from the ALPA investigation department too late. But what was revealed was that one of the right hand elevator servo actuators went hard over. As there are 3 actuators per elevator side, one of the retaining pins on the servo going hardover would shear as it is fighting against the other 2 servo actuators, and in this case, noting would be noticed until scheduled maintenance. Egyptair claims that one servo actuator had already gone hardover and sheared on a previous flight, leaving 2 servo actuators remaining. During the event with Batouti at the controls, it would have been the second one failing. In this case, it is not 1 against 2 but 1 against 1 shear pin, and it would be a 50/50 chance of the failed one to shear. In this case, they claim that the GOOD remaining one sheard, leaving the one that had gone hardover to push the elevator full down. Boeing issued later a service bulletin requiring inspection of the 767 elevator servo actuators and their shear pins within 400 hours of flight time; but that was not publicized by NTSB.

Batouti was eating his meal during that time, alone in the cockpit, and it didn't make sense for him to suddenly just quit eating, place his tray over his flight bag and commit suicide. The autopilot disconnected itself because of the force generated by the hardover actuator itself, and not because of a control input from Batouti. He knew he was in trouble, and the pucker factor made him only say one thing: 'I put my faith in God'. The NTSB translator was Lebanese, who interpreted this as being a fanatic expression. However, it's a commonly used expression in Egypt, even by non muslims such as Christians and even Jews.

As they pitched down, Batouti would have been fighting against the downward pitch, pulling back with all his might. But he would not be able to override the servo actuator, powered by 3000 PSI of hydraulic pressure. What would appear as him pushing forward would have been really him trying to pull back. The captain pulled hard enough to split the elevator. But it split suddenly and he over G'ed the aircraft as it was going supersonic, causing its breakup on the pullup.

As the aircraft went past its Mmo (maximum Mach number, and if I remember correctly on the 767, it's .86) and nearing transonic flight, the engines would have flamed out due to compressor stall. They are not designed to keep operating in that range. In any case, when you're in a screaming dive, you pull back on the throttles. Batouti at that point would have let go of the controls in order to restart the engines after a double flameout. That procedure is to close the throttles and turn the engine/ignition switches to off and back on again to Ignition and hope for an airstart.

In a number of instances, the NTSB have been quick to blame the pilots based on circumstatial evidence, in order to end expensive further investigations. They have been successfully challenged in the past.
 

danmand

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I am flying to Europe tonight on a 777.
 

Perry Mason

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And no court of law would ever convict someone of murder because he screamed "jesus christ" in a certain tone.
If you were a lawyer and had ever participated in a trial or cross-examined a witness, you would know that the intonation, cadence, volume, context, etc. of spoken words is crucial to their meaning above and beyond the plain or textual meaning of the words themselves...

In fact, you don't even have to be a lawyer to know that!!!

Perry
 

danmand

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Almost certain to be peremptorily challenged, lawyers don't like lawyers on juries.
That particular statement follows logically from the more general statement: Nobody likes lawyers.
 

Aardvark154

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Egyptair always contested the NTSB conclusions. The Egyptian pilots association asked help from the ALPA investigation department too late. But what was revealed was that one of the right hand elevator servo actuators went hard over. As there are 3 actuators per elevator side, one of the retaining pins on the servo going hardover would shear as it is fighting against the other 2 servo actuators, and in this case, noting would be noticed until scheduled maintenance. Egyptair claims that one servo actuator had already gone hardover and sheared on a previous flight, leaving 2 servo actuators remaining. During the event with Batouti at the controls, it would have been the second one failing. In this case, it is not 1 against 2 but 1 against 1 shear pin, and it would be a 50/50 chance of the failed one to shear. In this case, they claim that the GOOD remaining one sheard, leaving the one that had gone hardover to push the elevator full down. Boeing issued later a service bulletin requiring inspection of the 767 elevator servo actuators and their shear pins within 400 hours of flight time; but that was not publicized by NTSB.

Batouti was eating his meal during that time, alone in the cockpit, and it didn't make sense for him to suddenly just quit eating, place his tray over his flight bag and commit suicide. The autopilot disconnected itself because of the force generated by the hardover actuator itself, and not because of a control input from Batouti. He knew he was in trouble, and the pucker factor made him only say one thing: 'I put my faith in God'. The NTSB translator was Lebanese, who interpreted this as being a fanatic expression. However, it's a commonly used expression in Egypt, even by non muslims such as Christians and even Jews.

As they pitched down, Batouti would have been fighting against the downward pitch, pulling back with all his might. But he would not be able to override the servo actuator, powered by 3000 PSI of hydraulic pressure. What would appear as him pushing forward would have been really him trying to pull back. The captain pulled hard enough to split the elevator. But it split suddenly and he over G'ed the aircraft as it was going supersonic, causing its breakup on the pullup.

As the aircraft went past its Mmo (maximum Mach number, and if I remember correctly on the 767, it's .86) and nearing transonic flight, the engines would have flamed out due to compressor stall. They are not designed to keep operating in that range. In any case, when you're in a screaming dive, you pull back on the throttles. Batouti at that point would have let go of the controls in order to restart the engines after a double flameout. That procedure is to close the throttles and turn the engine/ignition switches to off and back on again to Ignition and hope for an airstart.

In a number of instances, the NTSB have been quick to blame the pilots based on circumstatial evidence, in order to end expensive further investigations. They have been successfully challenged in the past.
Wilber this is possible, all sorts of strange things are possible. But is it probable, not nearly as what BlueLaser posted and what the NTSB determined.

If what you describe is what occurred why on earth did Batouti act as he did and not respond to the Captain? Certainly he hadn't had a stoke or coronary - you don't keep saying "I rely on God" when when you can't speak. If what you describe was what had happened then Batouti would have said something even as BlueLaser wrote: "Thank God you're back Frank! The damned thing just nosed-over and the controls don't seem to be responding. Help me pull out of this fucking dive!!!!!"
 

danmand

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BlueLaser

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Egyptair always contested the NTSB conclusions. The Egyptian pilots association asked help from the ALPA investigation department too late. But what was revealed was that one of the right hand elevator servo actuators went hard over. As there are 3 actuators per elevator side, one of the retaining pins on the servo going hardover would shear as it is fighting against the other 2 servo actuators, and in this case, noting would be noticed until scheduled maintenance. Egyptair claims that one servo actuator had already gone hardover and sheared on a previous flight, leaving 2 servo actuators remaining. During the event with Batouti at the controls, it would have been the second one failing. In this case, it is not 1 against 2 but 1 against 1 shear pin, and it would be a 50/50 chance of the failed one to shear. In this case, they claim that the GOOD remaining one sheard, leaving the one that had gone hardover to push the elevator full down. Boeing issued later a service bulletin requiring inspection of the 767 elevator servo actuators and their shear pins within 400 hours of flight time; but that was not publicized by NTSB.

Batouti was eating his meal during that time, alone in the cockpit, and it didn't make sense for him to suddenly just quit eating, place his tray over his flight bag and commit suicide. The autopilot disconnected itself because of the force generated by the hardover actuator itself, and not because of a control input from Batouti. He knew he was in trouble, and the pucker factor made him only say one thing: 'I put my faith in God'. The NTSB translator was Lebanese, who interpreted this as being a fanatic expression. However, it's a commonly used expression in Egypt, even by non muslims such as Christians and even Jews.

As they pitched down, Batouti would have been fighting against the downward pitch, pulling back with all his might. But he would not be able to override the servo actuator, powered by 3000 PSI of hydraulic pressure. What would appear as him pushing forward would have been really him trying to pull back. The captain pulled hard enough to split the elevator. But it split suddenly and he over G'ed the aircraft as it was going supersonic, causing its breakup on the pullup.

As the aircraft went past its Mmo (maximum Mach number, and if I remember correctly on the 767, it's .86) and nearing transonic flight, the engines would have flamed out due to compressor stall. They are not designed to keep operating in that range. In any case, when you're in a screaming dive, you pull back on the throttles. Batouti at that point would have let go of the controls in order to restart the engines after a double flameout. That procedure is to close the throttles and turn the engine/ignition switches to off and back on again to Ignition and hope for an airstart.

In a number of instances, the NTSB have been quick to blame the pilots based on circumstatial evidence, in order to end expensive further investigations. They have been successfully challenged in the past.
Yes, EgyptAir has contested them. And the ECAA findings are pretty sketchy. They detail a lot of "possible" explanations with no facts. Let's take the scenario you propose which does nothing to explain why Batouti didn't say a WORD to the captain about what was going on or what he was doing... but let's look at it anyway.

An elevator hardover's and that caused the crash. Fine. How would that scenario play out? First, the elevator would move, abruptly and hard. The aircraft would pitch down VIOLENTLY. The autopilot deals with this all the time in turbulence. It would attempt to correct by pitching the elevator up. A failed response would then cause the autopilot to disconnect and alarm. That's absolutely correct. Here's why that theory fails.

1) The autopilot was diconnected before any nose-over maneuver began. Is this a magic autopilot that can predict the future, that a servo is going to fail, and disconnects before the elevator hardovers?
2) The throttle was reduced to idle before the dive began. So now we have not just a magic auto-pilot, but a magic Batouti that can predict a hard-over is coming. Already the ECAA hardover theory is shot to hell.
3) Why didn't Batouti say anything? Sitting there in silence is the worst thing you can do in an emergency and this would be the first recorded case of flight crew refusing to answer his captain's questions during an emergency.
4) Why did this magical hardover only affect Batouti's control column? The FDR shows a split condition with the co-pilot pushing forward and pilot pulling back. In your scenario, both would be fighting the same forces. But the FDR doesn't show that.
5) You acknowledge Batouti was the likely the one that turned selected engine cut-off. Let's look at that separately.
5a) You're in a screaming dive, you want to retard engine power completely, you select idle. Makes sense I agree. 1 point here. Oh wait, except engines were idled before the dive. Take that point away.
5b) If you're in a screaming dive, with a ton of excessive velocity that you can trade for altitude when you recover, why would you stop trying to arrest the uncontrollable dive to restart the engines?
5c) If you're resetting the engines because you're a moron and decide that an engine restart when you don't need or want engine power is more important than overcoming the dive, why don't you say "Restart" when the captain asks why you turned them off?
5d) The procedure for engine restart isn't "Cut-off then do nothing". It's ENG START switches - FLT, THRUST LEVERS both - IDLE, FUEL CONTROL - CUT-OFF then RUN. Why didn't Batouti set the start switches to FLT? Why didn't he turn the fuel control back to run after cut-off? His actions are inconsistent with an air restart.
5e) Why did Batouti, assuming you're correct, attempt to restart engines that, according to all indications, was functioning normally in the midst of an uncontrolled dive? Regaining elevator control, if it had indeed been lost, would've been the priority, not restarting engines that he had no intention or need to use while still plummeting towards the ocean.
6) Let's talk about compressor stall shall we.
6a) Compressor surges are almost universally accompanied by a very loud bang, loud enough that it would have been recorded on a CVR. The lack of a bang isn't enough to say there was no stall, but without it, I wonder what caused Batouti to decide to stop focusing on recovering from the dive and start worrying about engines.
6b) If you're near or beyond Mmo or Vmo and you have a compressor surge, first instinct is that the cause was excessive speed. In other words, there's no point in attempting a restart while pressure will continue to exceed tolerance. All you'll be doing is restart after restart as the compressors continue to stall out. In fact, you risk doing more damage by attempting a restart than by just leaving the engine out. The more critical of the two conditions - compressor stall and exceeding Vmo/Mmo - is the speed. You MUST reduce your speed. That is the priority. Fuck the engines. A plane can fly without engines. It can't fly if it gets ripped apart from excessive speed and it certainly can't fly underwater so fix the dive first, then worry about the engines.

The ECAA report never explained any of these. At all. Not even a little. That's a lot of unanswered questions about Batouti's behaviour that are not only "odd", they're downright damning, and only 1 thing that makes sense until you realize it was done at a time that doesn't make sense. There is literally no rational explanation for why he did those things. So the answer, by logical deduction, is that the explanation must be irrational. Why would a pilot do things irrationally and intentionally that lead to their own death? Suicide is up there. And one could argue that any other possibility, terrorism, to get even with someone on the flight, to punish the company, etc etc, even duress, is still suicide in addition to those other things.

You also have to remember that the ECAA didn't say "Here's the cause!" They said "Here are a few possible causes. None of which explain Batouti's behaviour which was irrational, but they are all possible causes. Oh and by the way, please don't look to closely and realize that every single one of these possible causes is directly refuted by evidence recovered from the CVR, FDR and wreckage."
 

BlueLaser

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I am flying to Europe tonight on a 777.
One of the safest planes in the sky. Don't let news get you down. You've survived leaving your house every day, and the chances of you dying leaving your house are much higher than they are dying in a plane crash, let alone one in a large airliner.
 

danmand

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One of the safest planes in the sky. Don't let news get you down. You've survived leaving your house every day, and the chances of you dying leaving your house are much higher than they are dying in a plane crash, let alone one in a large airliner.
I have flown a lot in my time, almost 2 million miles on each of American and Air canada alone. The only accident I have been in, in probably 7 million miles of flying commercial airplanes, was once in Chicago, when the pilot taxied the plane into the muddy grass, and had to be hauled back on the tarmac. His wife was an attendant on the plane, so he got ribbed abit for it.

If I make it to the airport, I will be safe. People like you are extremely well trained compared to any other profession.
 

sexhungry

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Why didn't Batouti reply to the captain? Maybe he panicked? Maybe he was too scared and thought he was gonna die. Maybe he just isn't a very good pilot. Besides, there is no indication of any "struggle" within the cockpit. No indication that the pilot yelling at the copilot to stop or anything like that. And if Batouti wanted to crash then why turn off the engine instead of powering them up to speed the dive even further? Why just a nose down when even more radical inputs would have made a crash even more likely? And why didn't he lock the damn cockpit door to prevent the pilot from coming back and stopping him? And funny how those clowns at the NTSB lying through their nose ignoring evidence that the pilot was back to his seat before the dive, and want us to believe that he magically floated back to his seat a whole minute later while the plane was experiencing -ve G forces :rolleyes:

Also the captain did ask for the engines to be turned off and Batouti replied that he did that. I do ask however what makes you think anyone attempted to restart the engine? The investigation if I remember correctly said they were shut down and that's it. No record of any attempt to restart them.

As for the control column actions, that was just a load of rubbish by the US propaganda media. The fact is that the FDR does not even record the position or force applied to the control column. The whole notion of the copilot pushing down while the pilot pulling up was just assumed by the NTSB because they claim it was the best explanation to fit the data. But the actual FDR data only monitored the elevator position, and not the movements of the control column.

The issue still remains that there is absolutely no solid evidence that Batouti deliberately crashed the plane. All there is is just some circumstantial evidence coupled with a lot of guessing and a lot of assumptions. Meanwhile, it was well known as a fact that the servo control units for the 767 were rubbish and prone to jamming, and subject to several safety directives up until just a few months ago!
 

GPIDEAL

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The argument presented is to cover up that it's suicide so his family still gets a payout. ok fine, I suppose that's an explanation. But a guy who has empathy and cares about his family isn't likely to ruin lives of the families of 239 other people, is he? Possible, I suppose. But I dunno. It doesn't feel right to me.

Will an insurance company pay if a case is cold (no pun intended)? If there's even suspicion for suicide, if not a hint, they may be able to delay payment per the terms of the life insurance policy. The pilot may not be aware of those terms, unless he did his homework without alarming anyone.
 

GPIDEAL

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One of the safest planes in the sky. Don't let news get you down. You've survived leaving your house every day, and the chances of you dying leaving your house are much higher than they are dying in a plane crash, let alone one in a large airliner.
That statistic is skewed in favor of the aviation industry.

It is based on accident occurrence over distance traveled.

If you did a statistic based on accident occurrence over length of time traveled, automobile travel would be safer (this is based on the comments of an engineer before the commencement of a tour at Pickering Nuclear Generating Station, when he extolled the safety of atomic power generation and spoke about so called 'statistics').

Also, if my car stalls, I'm unlikely to die. You can't say the same for a jetliner.
 

abv

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Also, if my car stalls, I'm unlikely to die. You can't say the same for a jetliner.
Gimli. USAir in the Hudson British Airways 747 that Injested volcanic ash

That's 3 and I haven't even googled

Throw in the numerous landings I've had in an SZD-50-3
 

GPIDEAL

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Gimli. USAir in the Hudson British Airways 747 that Injested volcanic ash

That's 3 and I haven't even googled

Throw in the numerous landings I've had in a SZD-50-3

You should know what I mean (when it dies).
 

BlueLaser

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Why didn't Batouti reply to the captain? Maybe he panicked? Maybe he was too scared and thought he was gonna die. Maybe he just isn't a very good pilot. Besides, there is no indication of any "struggle" within the cockpit. No indication that the pilot yelling at the copilot to stop or anything like that. And if Batouti wanted to crash then why turn off the engine instead of powering them up to speed the dive even further? Why just a nose down when even more radical inputs would have made a crash even more likely? And why didn't he lock the damn cockpit door to prevent the pilot from coming back and stopping him? And funny how those clowns at the NTSB lying through their nose ignoring evidence that the pilot was back to his seat before the dive, and want us to believe that he magically floated back to his seat a whole minute later while the plane was experiencing -ve G forces :rolleyes:

Also the captain did ask for the engines to be turned off and Batouti replied that he did that. I do ask however what makes you think anyone attempted to restart the engine? The investigation if I remember correctly said they were shut down and that's it. No record of any attempt to restart them.

As for the control column actions, that was just a load of rubbish by the US propaganda media. The fact is that the FDR does not even record the position or force applied to the control column. The whole notion of the copilot pushing down while the pilot pulling up was just assumed by the NTSB because they claim it was the best explanation to fit the data. But the actual FDR data only monitored the elevator position, and not the movements of the control column.

The issue still remains that there is absolutely no solid evidence that Batouti deliberately crashed the plane. All there is is just some circumstantial evidence coupled with a lot of guessing and a lot of assumptions. Meanwhile, it was well known as a fact that the servo control units for the 767 were rubbish and prone to jamming, and subject to several safety directives up until just a few months ago!
Your premise makes Batouti less experienced that a pilot with 100 hours of flight time. He had over 12,000 hours though including time flying in the air force where he was one of their top flight instructors. Does that sound like the kind of guy who is going to panic, forget all of his training, and engage silent mode, ignoring his captain?

You ask why he didn't do other things, those are great questions. Why didn't he? I don't know. But I also don't know why he'd disengage the autopilot and nosed-down a perfectly airworthy aircraft. Here we have a pilot that made irrational actions, and you're asking why his actions weren't more rationally irrational. I don't have the answer to that. Neither does the NTSB. For that matter, neither does the ECAA or Boeing.

Have you operated in an aircraft in negative G? Do you have any notion of what the affects of being aft vs fore of the center of gravity, center of lift or center of mass are? I don't think I'd have any problem pulling myself from one door to another in negative G based on my experiences with it. Perhaps not if it was 6G, but there's no indication the negative G was that high, or that it was excessive at all. The idea that the captain must have returned simply because of negative G is not defensible. Now, there is a whirring noise earlier on, was that the captain returning? Maybe. But you're still stuck with a captain asking Batouti what's going on, and Batouti not saying a word. If Batouti is praying and making his actions because there's a problem, why is the captain completely silent right up until he asks "What's going on?" The captain either watched Batouti disconnect the autopilot and nose over the aircraft, or does it himself, or observes the aircraft do it in response to a mechanical problem, and doesn't say a single word until they're established in a dive when he suddenly has nothing but question after question for his co-pilot? That's really how you see it happening?

I don't think anyone attempted to restart the engine. Wilbur said that was the reason the engines were shut off. If I quote someone when I reply, you really should read it to get the context of why I'm saying what I am. I don't randomly quote on purpose.

While it's true as well that the captain did say to shut down the engines, that happens after the captain has already asked "What is this? What is this? Did you shut the engine?" And then, now that the captain has said "shut the engine", now suddenly this fearful, too-scared to speak co-pilot is capable of calmly uttering "they're shut"? So he was panic stricken in the earlier portions of a dive, but once an aircraft designed for 80% the speed of sound is plummeting towards the earth at supersonic speeds, now he's not scared anymore and is able to speak? And all he has to say is "it's shut". When the captain says "help me pull" he doesn't say "I'm pulling"? Why did he tell the captain "its shut" if he's simply a good soldier following orders and then not say he's trying when captain repeats, over and over "help me pull!"? While Batouti's silence says a lot, so does the few words he does say. Calmly uttered prayers and an chillingly calm "its shut" when the only defense for his silence is absolute panic. Prayers are not uncommon in an accident, but if you want to paint the guy as fighting ALONGSIDE the captain to regain control, you need to explain why he ignored him so much, even when he wasn't praying. I've had emergencies where my copilot prayed. I rolled my eyes and kept running the checklists, but in between verses they still manage to do their job and give me the replies I need. "What's number 2 EGT now?" "Hail Mary, full of grace. Uhh... #2 EGT normal. The lord is with thee..." "Are you cycling the APU?" "Oh God, Lord help me. APU cycled, sir. Sweet Jesus." Without fail. I've never had someone lock up completely and fail to respond. Not once. And I've been in just about everything emergency possible except for an explosion that rips the plane apart. I won't say I've seen it all, but I've seen A LOT.

I'm aware of what the FDR monitored, but it did report a split condition. Despite the earliest media reports and rampant speculation, neither the NTSB nor the FBI ruled out any possibilities. Once the entire control assembly was recovered, it was poured over by engineers. Boeing even configured a series of simulator runs to examine possible causes of the split. First off, the actuators were ALL recovered, and despite ECAA's claims that their primary theory is multiple actuator failure, there was no evidence that ANY of the actuators malfunctioned, let alone the minimum of 2 required to produce ECAA's hypothetical cause. But in the name of thoroughness, the actuator theory was tested and found that the split condition didn't match what was recorded by the FDR. What's worse, multiple actuator failure is solved by pulling back on the column, and the amount of force required to recover from actuator failure is LESS than what's required to split. No mechanical failure they could think up, including all the possibilities ECAA suggested, matched the profile the FDR recorded. But opposing control inputs does. They don't "assume" that's what happened, they've tested it. They've tested it extensively over and over, and to this day if you go to Boeing Field, you can still load up the simulator runs and try them. It's STILL being tested. And the only way that the flight profile matches MSR990's is with opposing inputs. Not every now and then, but consistently.

EgyptAir discounts suicide. Their alternative is mechanical failure despite none of the mechanical failure scenarios the propose matching the flight profile. The only explanation for Batouti's actions, even if we just take the big one we know about - refusing to speak to his captain - is either he did it on purpose, or he's pretty much the worst pilot that's ever flown. For a guy with 12,000 hours and 2 wars as an air force aviator under his belt, it's pretty hard to believe the latter.
 
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