Supreme Court of Canada will release its decision on the Bedford, Lebovitch and Scott

rld

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Interesting piece today by Andrew Coyne on how criminalization is not necessarily seen by Canadians as the way to address potential harms in areas such as prostitution:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...ocietys-moral-degradation-quite-the-opposite/

It will be interesting to see how the government responds. It's certainly noteworthy that there hasn't been a huge public outcry about the Supreme Court ruling.
I can't remember the last huge public outcry about a SCC ruling. Maybe something on separation?

Anyways, I am confident the Tories will introduce legislation to re-criminalize some aspects of this industry. I do not expect them to adopt the nordic model.
 

Phil C. McNasty

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I can't remember the last huge public outcry about a SCC ruling. Maybe something on separation?

Anyways, I am confident the Tories will introduce legislation to re-criminalize some aspects of this industry. I do not expect them to adopt the nordic model.
And how the heck can you re-criminalize some aspects of the industry, and not adopt the nordic model??
 

canada-man

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rld

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And how the heck can you re-criminalize some aspects of the industry, and not adopt the nordic model??
I understand the nordic model focuses on punishing customers. I don't expect that is the approach the Tories will take.
 

rld

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Even though that is the approach they formally adopted at their policy convention?
It is a long journey from a policy convention to the legislative draft with many turns inbetween.
 

afterhours

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It is a long journey from a policy convention to the legislative draft with many turns inbetween.
So there will be a lot of opportunities for the powerful john lobby to raise their mighty voice and to convince the public of the righteousness of their noble cause.
 

staggerspool

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Even though that is the approach they formally adopted at their policy convention?
That was then...

Notice that Joy hasn't been all over the news since the decision telling us all that we have to go Nordic. Perhaps that means nothing, but perhaps she's been read the news, Harper isn't in the mood to get too hung up on this stuff. They'll certainly do something around street solicitation, but beyond that, I think Coyne has something figured out.
 

Moviefan-2

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I can't remember the last huge public outcry about a SCC ruling. Maybe something on separation?
Probably the Morgentaler ruling.

(I should add, of course, that public outcry doesn't necessarily mean the people doing the shouting represent the majority of citizens).
 
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I agree ..... ALL this bad date stuff is used as an excuse ..... utter nonsense. In past several years we have not 1 " bad date "
 

oldjones

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Guys I am no legal analyst but this seems really disturbing legally to me.

Bud with analogy but let me try this:

Assume if we had the same law USA had for non whites to ride only at the back of bus. So I go to Supreme Court and say hey.....please give me full rights to sit anywhere in the bus. Supreme Court says, you are right! Done...Government you FIX it.

Government goes.....Okay no Problem.......From now on Non-Whites cannot take the Bus. Period. FIXED.

Sure will want me to be think twice before returning to SC then huh.
Not a good analogy; even a lowly JP would then promptly rule the new law deprived non-whites of their SCC-recognized and clearly stated right to occupy any seat on the bus regardless of colour, and it would fail on the same human rights grounds as the previous law.

Prostitution—defined as sex for money—is already in the Criminal Code, not as an offence itself but as the trigger-mechanism that makes otherwise ordinary acts, like advertising, striking a deal in the open, or operating a retail business into criminal ones. You need to find a bus-ride scenario where it's OK for non-whites to ride, but not if they pay for it, and then punish the bus company that takes their money.

Given social attitudes, particularly in the conservative base, a proposal that criminalized the transaction would likely have some strong support, and if prostitution itself was illegal (no one could sit anywhere on the bus), then there would be no infringement of someone's rights in forbidding them to solicit customers or keep a bawdyhouse to do the deed.

But that would still leave a human rights case to be made on the basis that anyone receiving 'payment' for sex—the room and board of a non-employed wife—was committing an act of prostitution, and we'd face the same stupid logic-chopping semantic circuses that obscenity charges regularly produced, as judges and politicians vainly tried to keep their sex—or pix and words about it—legal while prohibiting the sex they didn't like. If you want to see how ultimately successful they were look up any topic on the web. Porn won.

Society did not collapse. Nor has it collapsed because we have no abortion law, and Colorado and Amsterdam will teach us we can manage with drug laws that are not criminal. Criminal law is the ultimate recognition that a society has failed to inculcate its citizens with its values and morals. It fixes nothing, and often creates more harm than the offence, especially when those 'offences' are common and the punishments heavy. Spanking never made a child good.

If OHG is worthy to become the Canada's Natural Government, they'll push a similar strategy as they have for abortion: Do nothing by law, but let the true-believers have their say; only if and when they gather enough support, then maybe a make law. In this case I'd bet they think support is already there, and that even if they get it wrong, it'll take years for another Supreme Court to say so.

Too bad. There are already all the basic social controls and laws we need to regulate, mitigate or to forbid and punish such evils as coercion, exploitation, violence, and disruptive solicitation and advertising. It isn't fear of criminal penalties that keeps all our other social/commercial transactions within acceptable limits. We can hope their legislative tinkering at least heads in that direction, but I wouldn't put money on it.
 

staggerspool

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TeasePlease

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Not a good analogy; even a lowly JP would then promptly rule the new law deprived non-whites of their SCC-recognized and clearly stated right to occupy any seat on the bus regardless of colour, and it would fail on the same human rights grounds as the previous law.

Prostitution—defined as sex for money—is already in the Criminal Code, not as an offence itself but as the trigger-mechanism that makes otherwise ordinary acts, like advertising, striking a deal in the open, or operating a retail business into criminal ones. You need to find a bus-ride scenario where it's OK for non-whites to ride, but not if they pay for it, and then punish the bus company that takes their money.

Given social attitudes, particularly in the conservative base, a proposal that criminalized the transaction would likely have some strong support, and if prostitution itself was illegal (no one could sit anywhere on the bus), then there would be no infringement of someone's rights in forbidding them to solicit customers or keep a bawdyhouse to do the deed.

But that would still leave a human rights case to be made on the basis that anyone receiving 'payment' for sex—the room and board of a non-employed wife—was committing an act of prostitution, and we'd face the same stupid logic-chopping semantic circuses that obscenity charges regularly produced, as judges and politicians vainly tried to keep their sex—or pix and words about it—legal while prohibiting the sex they didn't like. If you want to see how ultimately successful they were look up any topic on the web. Porn won.

Society did not collapse. Nor has it collapsed because we have no abortion law, and Colorado and Amsterdam will teach us we can manage with drug laws that are not criminal. Criminal law is the ultimate recognition that a society has failed to inculcate its citizens with its values and morals. It fixes nothing, and often creates more harm than the offence, especially when those 'offences' are common and the punishments heavy. Spanking never made a child good.

If OHG is worthy to become the Canada's Natural Government, they'll push a similar strategy as they have for abortion: Do nothing by law, but let the true-believers have their say; only if and when they gather enough support, then maybe a make law. In this case I'd bet they think support is already there, and that even if they get it wrong, it'll take years for another Supreme Court to say so.

Too bad. There are already all the basic social controls and laws we need to regulate, mitigate or to forbid and punish such evils as coercion, exploitation, violence, and disruptive solicitation and advertising. It isn't fear of criminal penalties that keeps all our other social/commercial transactions within acceptable limits. We can hope their legislative tinkering at least heads in that direction, but I wouldn't put money on it.
Damn fine post. Bravo!
 

rld

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But that would still leave a human rights case to be made on the basis that anyone receiving 'payment' for sex—the room and board of a non-employed wife—was committing an act of prostitution, and we'd face the same stupid logic-chopping semantic circuses that obscenity charges regularly produced, as judges and politicians vainly tried to keep their sex—or pix and words about it—legal while prohibiting the sex they didn't like. If you want to see how ultimately successful they were look up any topic on the web. Porn won.
While I agree that his analogy is very poor, this argument has not traction at all.

There no constitutional or human rights law in Canada that prevents the federal government from completely criminalizing prostitution if they so choose.

While I think, for many reasons, that it is bad policy to do so. There is no such bar or argument as you suggest, nor has there ever been.
 

TeasePlease

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While I agree that his analogy is very poor, this argument has not traction at all.

There no constitutional or human rights law in Canada that prevents the federal government from completely criminalizing prostitution if they so choose.

While I think, for many reasons, that it is bad policy to do so. There is no such bar or argument as you suggest, nor has there ever been.
the only principle I can think of is Trudeau's "bedroom" statement. We obviously have a particular slant to interpreting such policy, but let's face it, ideology drives partisanship and the Cons certainly behave as though they have all the answers.
 

TeasePlease

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In no Commonwealth country is prostitution illegal (that I'm aware of). I find it highly unlikely that Canada would be the first.
Prostitution is illegal in most African countries, notably South Africa. India, another large commonwealth state still has laws that are very similar to the ones that were struck in Canada. Hong Kong, prior to its reversion to the PRC, made prostitution illegal.

Of course, in Canada, we generally enforce the laws that we have. Not so much in less developed countries.
 

afterhours

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In no Commonwealth country is prostitution illegal (that I'm aware of). I find it highly unlikely that Canada would be the first.
Canada is the only Commonwealth country that prohibits its residents to sponsor their fiancees from overseas unless they marry first. Even USA is not that crazy.
So there is no saying as to what Canada can do if feminists ask.
 
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