The Three Reasons Canada is in Big Trouble

[JohnLarue]

Sure. If there is no teacher, you can not read either.

I thought the question is this: If a person with an honours degree teaching 9-10 months a year should get 60-65 thousands according to your calculations, how much should a person with a high school education gets for sitting in Tim Hortons enjoying his donut?

Home schooling is looking to be a far less expensive proposition relative to the extortion we are dealing with now

The very presence of a police force ensures law and order
I do not agree the police spend their time in Tim Hortons eating donuts
When we get really bad people doing horrendous things (Paul Bernardo, the nut who murdered the guy selling his truck) we send the police to catch them.
1. Are you going to send the teacher to apprehend this type of individual
2. No police and it would be survival of the strongest. Murders , robbery , rape and assault every day

How so? Give me an argument.

I am not familiar with Atlas Shrugged, nor have I followed the contrasting experience of Argentina and China in the 20th century.
I am not about to undertake a study of Lynn and Vanhanen’s IQ and the Wealth of Nations in order to try and understand what your argument is
The issue here is overcompensating special interest groups and the financial health of the province.

Before you start, I would like to remind you that, last I checked, average IQ for China is 105 and 93 for Argentina. At the 90%tile range, where it really matters, I suspect the gap is even greater, as indicated by their respective performance over the years on the International Math Olympiad:

What does that have to do with the price of corn in Mexico City?

http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

Afghanistan and Iraq were supposed to be simple too.

I never said that and knew it would be easier to invade than to leave

That is a different issue
Here we are talking about overpaying teachers, and the evils of their union, hardly a comparable

Can we pay police and firefighters what they feel they are entitled to?

No we can not.
They are undoubtedly over compensated, however two wrongs do not make a right
I value the services they provide far more than that of a teacher as they protect lives and property and will always do that regardless of their contract status.
The minute they refuse to do so we need to replace all of them.

Teachers on the other hand process kids through a system and have shown they place their financial interests above the interest of the students
As a group they should all be replaced

 

[George The Curious]

In my view, Canada has been SPOILED by high oil, gold and other commodity prices in the past 10+ years. Now, the declining prices will reveal lots of problems previously covered by or offset by the surpluses from oil industry.

 

[George The Curious]

They are undoubtedly over compensated, however two wrongs do not make a right
I value the services they provide far more than that of a teacher as they protect lives and property and will always do that regardless of their contract status.
The minute they refuse to do so we need to replace all of them.

Teachers on the other hand process kids through a system and have shown they place their financial interests above the interest of the students
As a group they should all be replaced

This is a rather short sighted. Police catch criminals, but good teachers can actually prevent young people from becoming criminals in the first place. In countries where teachers make more money than police, the crime rates are far lower. - Japan for example, teachers have an equivalent title as doctors (both are called Sensai) and paid similarly, whereas policemen are much lower ranking in the society.

 

[JohnLarue]

This is a rather short sighted. Police catch criminals, but good teachers can actually prevent young people from becoming criminals in the first place. In countries where teachers make more money than police, the crime rates are far lower. - Japan for example, teachers have an equivalent title as doctors (both are called Sensai) and paid similarly, whereas policemen are much lower ranking in the society.

1. A good teacher?
This group values their sick day bonus more than the interest of the students.
Do not expect too many turn around stories from this lot of self indulgent parasites

2. I just hope you never really need a cop and a teacher shows up

3. Japan has to be one of the most messed up societies in the world
Racists and elitist. Side deals, red tape and nepotism run wild
They also have one the highest debt loads in the world and are foolishly now trying to spend their way out of a stagnant economy

Sorry, but I do not want to emulate the Japanese
Hey, maybe we can ship all of our teachers there and start over with a new group that actual puts the interest of the students first

 

[JohnLarue]

Which also means that we should go after corporations and people making over $100K.

Why not make it $75K as a minimum for tax targeting?
That way the average teacher could help pay for their excess compensation

I guess the robin hood theory gets thrown out once you figure out that teachers compensation is in the top 5-10% of all Canadians !!!!!Then you are stealing from the rich to pay the unionized rich

 

[CTSblues]

Home schooling is looking to be a far less expensive proposition relative to the extortion we are dealing with now

The very presence of a police force ensures law and order
I do not agree the police spend their time in Tim Hortons eating donuts
When we get really bad people doing horrendous things (Paul Bernardo, the nut who murdered the guy selling his truck) we send the police to catch them.
1. Are you going to send the teacher to apprehend this type of individual
2. No police and it would be survival of the strongest. Murders , robbery , rape and assault every day

Canada is not the only country with police. Why can we not pay them like they do in other OECD nations?

I am not familiar with Atlas Shrugged, nor have I followed the contrasting experience of Argentina and China in the 20th century.
I am not about to undertake a study of Lynn and Vanhanen’s IQ and the Wealth of Nations in order to try and understand what your argument is
The issue here is overcompensating special interest groups and the financial health of the province.

Then how do you know it is bs? If the issue is overcompensating special interest groups, then why are you only picking on teachers when I have given evidence that doctors and police are overpaid even more? And that low IQ people are mainly responsible for our social spending?

What does that have to do with the price of corn in Mexico City?

http://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

Heard about the Chaos Theory?

I value the services they provide far more than that of a teacher as they protect lives and property and will always do that regardless of their contract status.
The minute they refuse to do so we need to replace all of them.

Here you are:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...editorial-board-smashing-the-cone-of-silence/

I assume you will start work to "replace all of them"?

 

[Keebler Elf]

Anyway, been looking at disasters on this scale for a while. I know my stuff.

You worry too much.

 

[George The Curious]

1. A good teacher?
This group values their sick day bonus more than the interest of the students.
Do not expect too many turn around stories from this lot of self indulgent parasites

2. I just hope you never really need a cop and a teacher shows up

3. Japan has to be one of the most messed up societies in the world
Racists and elitist. Side deals, red tape and nepotism run wild
They also have one the highest debt loads in the world and are foolishly now trying to spend their way out of a stagnant economy

Sorry, but I do not want to emulate the Japanese
Hey, maybe we can ship all of our teachers there and start over with a new group that actual puts the interest of the students first

Japan's bad economy is not caused by high status of teachers. It has more to do with corporate culture that limits innovation, and declining population, and not allowing immigrants in their country. Their low crime rate is very low because their education system is designed to teach children not just knowledge of math, science, language, history etc.. but also morality, what's right and wrong, and respect for the elders. In Canada and US, schools are neutral on most of moral issues trying to be politically correct all the time. Our schools seems to emphasize what's legal or illegal, instead of what is right and wrong. And also teachers here lack moral values to start with - so students copy them. I think even though our economy is more competitive than Japan currently, we have a lot to learn from them in terms of teaching young the moral codes.

 

[JohnLarue]

Canada is not the only country with police. Why can we not pay them like they do in other OECD nations?

If you can accomplish that, go wild
However I have never stated I thought police and firemen were compensated appropriately
What I have stated is I value them more than teachers

Then how do you know it is bs? If the issue is overcompensating special interest groups, then why are you only picking on teachers when I have given evidence that doctors and police are overpaid even more? And that low IQ people are mainly responsible for our social spending?

There are approx 140-200 K of them in Ont and the education spending makes up 1/3 of the budget
Cutting the salary of the firemen will save millions, where as cutting teachers salaries will save billions
It is not about picking on one group vs. another

Heard about the Chaos Theory?

Heard about financial responsibility ?
Heard about financial default?
Heard about the impact of demographics on Ont's already over extended health care system?- We are going to need the excess compensation being wasted on Teachers to maintain our healthcare system

Here you are:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...editorial-board-smashing-the-cone-of-silence/

I assume you will start work to "replace all of them"?

Isolated incidents, sensationalized by the post
The police have yet to threaten withdrawing services in order to extort compensation gains
However if they take a lead from teachers, who's extortion was successful, perhaps it is only a matter of time

 

[JohnLarue]

And also teachers here lack moral values to start with - so students copy them.

Then way are we compensating them so excessively?

 

[icespot]

It is very ignorant to judge a group of people based on assumptions. Yes there are bad teachers, cops, firefighters etc. etc.

The real problem is that people in the public sector have unhappy working environments. For some reason people feel that more money will make them happy. However, that Salary increase of 6,000 dollars a year really translate to only an extra 30 dollars per pay check after taxes. Is it really worth it to screw every one in society for an extra 30 dollars every two weeks.

I think the first thing is that Governments should invest money in finding out how to provide people with good working environment.

Then cap the Salaries of Lawyers so they stop making bullshit contracts and red tape that takes for ever to make things happen.

Also we all do our part in helping one another. I remember in school when I had problems my teachers always helped at lunch or after school. They did it for the kids and the love of the job that a teacher before them showed them.

If you are not happy at 80,000 no amount of money will make you happy. Look at the guy from Saudi Arabia, Forbes ranked him 26 richest in the world and he was offended because he was sure he was number 18.

Last but not least stop giving in to the "Moral Panic".

If everything goes to fuck, one thing is for sure. We will all come together and do our best. Because that is exactly what happens every time.

Look at Albertans right now receiving per paid cards with 1000 for adults and 500 per child. You don't see those extreme rightist Haper supporters returning the social aid they are receiving.

Remember that most people are good and only Moral Panic makes it look other wise.

 

[CTSblues]

However I have never stated I thought police and firemen were compensated appropriately
What I have stated is I value them more than teachers

Then why don’t you criticize them? Simply because you value them does not make them beyond reproach.

There are approx 140-200 K of them in Ont and the education spending makes up 1/3 of the budget
Cutting the salary of the firemen will save millions, where as cutting teachers salaries will save billions
It is not about picking on one group vs. another

Healthcare cost is even greater, why not cut waste there?

Heard about financial responsibility ?
Heard about financial default?
Heard about the impact of demographics on Ont's already over extended health care system?- We are going to need the excess compensation being wasted on Teachers to maintain our healthcare system

You don't need to steal from Peter to pay Paul. Just restraint low IQ people from overspending their share of the social spending pie would just about do it.
You use a service, you pay for it. It is that simple. Problem solved. No more overspending. What do you think?

Isolated incidents, sensationalized by the post

The Post is a conservative, pro-police paper. How about this story?

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/10/09/tom-campen-rcmp-beating_n_1953104.html

 

[JohnLarue]

Then why don’t you criticize them? Simply because you value them does not make them beyond reproach.

They did not publically use kids as bargaining pawns, teachers did

Healthcare cost is even greater, why not cut waste there?

1. There will be an exponential increase in demand for healthcare service
2. Doctors and nurses can rather easily move tier services to the US m where they are in demand.
3. The line up of people applying to become teachers is very long and deep

The laws of supply and demand would find the true value of both groups services if not for the negative influence of the teachers union

You don't need to steal from Peter to pay Paul. Just restraint low IQ people from overspending their share of the social spending pie would just about do it.
You use a service, you pay for it. It is that simple. Problem solved. No more overspending. What do you think?

Poor kids would get no education
I believe the right of every child to have access to education should not cost us $24 B

The Post is a conservative, pro-police paper. How about this story?

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/10/09/tom-campen-rcmp-beating_n_1953104.html[/QUOTE]

Bash the police all you want, one day you might need them
You will be singing a different tune then

 

[Rockslinger]

I remember in school when I had problems my teachers always helped at lunch or after school. They did it for the kids and the love of the job that a teacher before them showed them.

Back then, public service actually meant service. However, service has declined all across the board. Ever tried to ask questions about a product in a store?

However, the problem is that we are now paying a lot more and getting a lot less in service in the public sector whereas we are not overpaying people in the private sector for little less service.

 

[CTSblues]

They did not publically use kids as bargaining pawns, teachers did

They don’t need to. They have politicians as hostages.

1. There will be an exponential increase in demand for healthcare service
2. Doctors and nurses can rather easily move tier services to the US m where they are in demand.
3. The line up of people applying to become teachers is very long and deep

The laws of supply and demand would find the true value of both groups services if not for the negative influence of the teachers union

Are you suggesting they would use patients as hostages? I thought only teachers do that.

If my recommendation for a “voucher” approach is followed, healthcare cost is going to go down because it penalizes those who overuse it and reward those who underutilized it. If healthcare professionals are leaving as a result, isn’t it a sign that it is working? Isn’t deficit reduction what you are looking for?

Do you not think the doctors”, nurses”, and police unions are also affecting the laws of supply and demand? Where did you get the idea that only teacher” union do that?

Poor kids would get no education
I believe the right of every child to have access to education should not cost us $24 B

Economically poor students are not affected. Taxpayers are still maintaining their share of the social spending. Are you afraid the low IQ parents may decide to spend it on drinks or something? When did you become such a socialist?

I am willing to spend even more if, as a result, Canada's smart fraction can compete against the best from the rest of the world. The US would love to have our problem with education right now.

Bash the police all you want, one day you might need them
You will be singing a different tune then

When did I do that? I thought they are the ones doing the bashing. No?

I already said that a murderer will not wait for the police to arrive. This rule applies for me as well as you. Just do not engage in high-risk activities and your chances in life will be much improved. What more can we ask for? An iron-clad guarantee?

 

[JohnLarue]

They don’t need to. They have politicians as hostages.

Huge difference between using kids a bargaining pawns and lobbying for an interest (within the rules).
The teachers behavior was despicable

Are you suggesting they would use patients as hostages? I thought only teachers do that.

Not at all ?????
How in the world did you get that inference???

If my recommendation for a “voucher” approach is followed, health care cost is going to go down because it penalizes those who overuse it and reward those who underutilized it. If health care professionals are leaving as a result, isn’t it a sign that it is working? Isn’t deficit reduction what you are looking for?

Perhaps you should explain the mechanics of your voucher concept in detail
The last "voucher" idea put forth was by Yoga Face
That turned out to be nothing more than a hidden agenda to fund special queer schools and would have resulted in a huge administrative cost increase.
He thought the program could save $ by having students do maintenance work.
It was a ridiculous plan

You appear to be more intelligent, so I would listen to your idea.
However the criteria which I think are important are:
1. Every kid in the province has the right to access education (rich or poor)
2. The quality of education can not slip and theoretically should improve
3. There has to be a net reduction in costs to the taxpayer. If it is a reallocation system, that will not work
I am skeptical and believe the only way to save any money is to reduce teachers salaries / benefits and / or have them work a full year in a semester system (at their current comp = less teachers)

Do you not think the doctors”, nurses”, and police unions are also affecting the laws of supply and demand? Where did you get the idea that only teacher” union do that?

I think you misunderstood
Doctors and Nurses have opportunities to sell their skills elsewhere for more $ (USA)
Demographics is going to drive an exponential increase in the demand for Doctor and Nursing skills
ie Increased demand

Teachers can not sell their skills elsewhere for more $- not on mass
There is a huge line-up of people applying to become teachers (@ 83K + gold plated benefits it is no surprise- The fact their is a huge oversupply is clue #1 that the comp is too high)
ie Increased supply

Basic supply and demand economics would dictate the price for teachers services should fall, while the price for the services of Doctors and Nurses should rise.

Unions have disrupted the natural laws of supply and demand

Every dime wasted on teachers will be required for future health care
Mark my words "we are going to regret overpaying teachers in the next decade as the cost of health care skyrockets at the same time interest rates increase and the debt service costs increase "

Economically poor students are not affected. Taxpayers are still maintaining their share of the social spending. Are you afraid the low IQ parents may decide to spend it on drinks or something? When did you become such a socialist?

I do not follow you here. I never mentioned low IQ parents

I am willing to spend even more if, as a result, Canada's smart fraction can compete against the best from the rest of the world. The US would love to have our problem with education right now.

Well currently, any genius the Ont education system produce will be burdened with unmanageable debt and limited employment opportunities unless the govt gets is financial house in order
The really bright ones will just leave for better opportunities and lower taxes.
Kind of defeats your purpose does it not

Take a look at Greece
A whole generation of youth has had any hope of economic prosperity stolen from it.
They are leaving in droves
Why?
Their parents generation loved to spend public money and did not give a second thought to the ever growing deficits or debt load

The sad irony of this mess is the same students who were screwed over by the teachers on the extra circulars will face the burden of paying off the debt incurred to excessively reward the same set of self absorbed teachers.

I thought the education system existed for the benefit of students
It is not going to work out that way

 

[explorerzip]

The very presence of a police force ensures law and order

The police enforce the law, not ensure it. Nothing ensures law and order unless you're proposing we create a police state like North Korea where there's tight control over everything? Even then, the people will revolt eventually.

Teachers on the other hand process kids through a system and have shown they place their financial interests above the interest of the students
As a group they should all be replaced'

Which means there are 0 good teachers in the entire country?! Your blanket statement just doesn't make sense not to mention hugely insulting to any good teacher out there. News flash: every person that gets paid is putting their financial interests above another person. Nobody truly works for free in any society: capitalist, socialist, dictatorship, etc. not even volunteers.

Let's pretend that we fire all teachers like you say. Now we have a whole lot of people that can't find replacement private sector jobs since they don't have any in-demand skills like you said earlier. So now we have a huge number of people collecting EI and eventually welfare.

Perhaps, but telling me to leave Ont if I do not like it is not appropriate

The whole board isn't appropriate and never will be and you're complaining about me? As if I'm the first person to tell you to buzz off?! A little sensitive are we?

If this tax situation drives you so crazy, run for public office and fix it. Since it's such an easy problem to fix, you should have no problem doing it right?!

 

[CTSblues]

Huge difference between using kids a bargaining pawns and lobbying for an interest (within the rules).
The teachers behavior was despicable

Are you not aware of police putting police board members that are deemed “anti-police” under “surveillance”? Any dirt they find can be used to help the mmber “see the light”.

Perhaps you should explain the mechanics of your voucher concept in detail

The concept is simple. In a nutshell we are operating our social welfare system like a credit card. If there are only 100 people in the country/province, each is responsible for 1/100 of it. It matters not who is doing the spending.

I propose each of us be given a “different” credit card, and be responsible for our spending only. At tax time, we settle the difference so those underused their card would get a refund and those overspend would have additional tax to pay. By giving people incentive to save, we hope we can roll back our social spending.

You appear to be more intelligent, so I would listen to your idea.

Well, I did calculus in Grade 13…

I think you misunderstood

No, your whole analysis is based on a faulty premise. The Canadian society and economy are not linear systems. It is like listening to an amateur unaware of the existence of the laws of thermodynamics talking about his new theory of gravitation.

With all due respect, your poor reading comprehension, superficial understanding of economics, lack of familiarity with concepts I introduced, inability to synthesize data, and short time horizon thinking make me feel you are out of your league in this discussion. There are so many academic holes to fill that I don’t even know where to begin. In short, you don’t even know what you don’t know.

You claimed to have graduate degrees…can you at least tell me what standardized tests you have taken, and your scores on them? If you do, I will promise to give you mine. Then it will be obvious to both of us if the discussion is fruitful.

I do not follow you here. I never mentioned low IQ parents

It has to do with the lack of processing power on your part.

I thought the education system existed for the benefit of students

It never was. Have a look:

http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0306/feature4_5.html

 

[blackrock13]

Are you not aware of police putting police board members that are deemed “anti-police” under “surveillance”? Any dirt they find can be used to help the mmber “see the light”.

http://www.upenn.edu/gazette/0306/feature4_5.html

Wow, really? Tell us more or at least give us some background support for this. I know, it's a secret.

 

[richaceg]

Krugman is a notorious bear. He is all "the sky is falling, the sky is falling"

he IS the false prophet of the present...the sky is falling...as he sneaks in laughing on his way to the bank....

canada might actually be in trouble but I see much more countries hit rock bottom before Canada starts falling and by then there hopefully will be solutions....