MGM Grand Toronto

[Mr. Lucky]

There has been lots of talk and mixed feeling about bring MGM grand to Toronto.
I really love this and hope it gets approved and no it's not all about a Casino it's a grand development to the city :thumb:

Right-wing Mayor Rob Ford came out to a pro-casino union rally Monday minutes before his executive committee jumped into the much-awaited debate over a Toronto casino.The committee is trying to hear from more than 200 people Monday before deciding Tuesday whether or not to push ahead with expressing interest in a casino in the downtown core or at Exhibition Place and/or an expansion of gaming at Woodbine racetrack.

"This is our first step in getting this casino here," Ford told a City Hall rally organized by several unions who support a casino.

Ford told the rally in the City Hall rotunda before Monday's meeting that a casino would bring 10,000 jobs to the city and "7,000 or 11,000 goodpaying construction jobs.""We have to get this done folks," Ford said. "Everybody has to work as a team here, call your councillors and say, 'I need an answer.' The waffling is over.

 

[Keebler Elf]

My initial reaction was pro-casino but the more I think about it the less I like it. All you have to do is look at the evidence from other cities with casinos and what happened there to know it's ultimately a loser decision with the costs outweighing the gains.

 

[night ride]

Ford is just being environmentally friendly. Just think not all that gas being burned driving to Rama etc.

 

[IM469]

My initial reaction was pro-casino but the more I think about it the less I like it. All you have to do is look at the evidence from other cities with casinos and what happened there to know it's ultimately a loser decision with the costs outweighing the gains.

I was initially against the casinos until I started reading the positive economic impact they can have and that that social impacts of a minority of gambling addicts are short sighted and self-defeating. Similar arguments have been used against extended drinking hours, the lotteries, Sunday business hours, even the Toronto Indy. Every step forward for this city makes is always fought by those afraid of progress.

What's in it for Toronto based on some reports from the US experience:

The existence of casinos creates demand for the goods and services of non-gambling businesses.

Many of the businesses are unique to the gambling industry (for example, slot/video machine manufacturing, sales, and service; lottery ticket production) but many businesses that operate in a non-gambling context have branched out to serve this growing industry--- companies that provide interior design, funds transfer systems, signage, furniture, security, and advertising.

The casino industry experienced considerable growth and expansion during the 1990s.

That expansion was financed by a large investment of money. One study estimates that $12.8 billion was spent on new construction, expansion, remodeling, and refurbishment of casinos between 1993 and 1995.

Clearly, expenditures of this magnitude have reverberating effects throughout the economy.

In addition, local and state governments and the federal government receive approximately $2.9 billion in taxes from the total revenues of casinos.

That figure includes income, sales, and property taxes, but most of it (65 percent) is taxes paid on revenues from gambling, which vary from state to state and range from 3 to 20 percent.

An analysis of the economic impact of gambling has been done by Michael Evans, an economist at Northwestern University.

Evans concluded that throughout the United States the recent establishment of casinos has resulted in a rise in employment and a decrease in unemployment. This study also stresses that tax revenues have increased as a result of legalized casino gambling. Also, he estimated that even if the number of casinos remains constant, total direct tax revenues received by state and local governments from casino gambling will rise to $5.3 billion by 2005.

 

[james t kirk]

Casinos are for cities that have no other options. You don't see them building a casino in Times Square, or Hyde Park, or by the Eiffel Tour do you. There's a reason for that. World class cities don't want casinos. They will suck the oxygen right out of dowtown Toronto.

The Developers are only interested in what Toronto has to offer them, not the other way round. Any jobs that come out of it will be low paying, and I severely doubt the bennefits being touted by the Developers or the Mayor.

I'd be far far far happier if Toronto managed to convince a major auto manufacturer to locate a plant here, or we lured a top notch high tech firm here, or expanded U of T, or developed the medical research industry etc. But a casino? It shows how stupid our mayor is (a fact well known) that all he and his dufus brother can come up with is a casino, or a big mall down on the waterfront, or an NFL team / stadium. They are so limited in their outlook.

Lastly, from an architectural / city scape point of view - it's an unmitigated disaster that will destroy the area around where they want to build it.

The good news is that I don't believe that there is enough political support for the damn thing to pass anyway.

 

[james t kirk]

I was initially against the casinos until I started reading the positive economic impact they can have and that that social impacts of a minority of gambling addicts are short sighted and self-defeating. Similar arguments have been used against extended drinking hours, the lotteries, Sunday business hours, even the Toronto Indy. Every step forward for this city makes is always fought by those afraid of progress.

What's in it for Toronto based on some reports from the US experience:

The existence of casinos creates demand for the goods and services of non-gambling businesses.

Many of the businesses are unique to the gambling industry (for example, slot/video machine manufacturing, sales, and service; lottery ticket production) but many businesses that operate in a non-gambling context have branched out to serve this growing industry--- companies that provide interior design, funds transfer systems, signage, furniture, security, and advertising.

The casino industry experienced considerable growth and expansion during the 1990s.

That expansion was financed by a large investment of money. One study estimates that $12.8 billion was spent on new construction, expansion, remodeling, and refurbishment of casinos between 1993 and 1995.

Clearly, expenditures of this magnitude have reverberating effects throughout the economy.

In addition, local and state governments and the federal government receive approximately $2.9 billion in taxes from the total revenues of casinos.

That figure includes income, sales, and property taxes, but most of it (65 percent) is taxes paid on revenues from gambling, which vary from state to state and range from 3 to 20 percent.

An analysis of the economic impact of gambling has been done by Michael Evans, an economist at Northwestern University.

Evans concluded that throughout the United States the recent establishment of casinos has resulted in a rise in employment and a decrease in unemployment. This study also stresses that tax revenues have increased as a result of legalized casino gambling. Also, he estimated that even if the number of casinos remains constant, total direct tax revenues received by state and local governments from casino gambling will rise to $5.3 billion by 2005.

The US Experience? If you want to see the "US Experience", just go to Vegas.

The place has topped out and is over-built and frankly has very little to offer. There are 2 major casinos that were started and then mothballed part way through construction. The "Fountainebleu" is about half completed and has been sitting for years. Rumour has it it is going to be torn down for scrap value. Then there is "the Echelon" which is even further behind. It's just a partial frame. Construction ceased because there was no more money available to be invested in building yet another casino. So it sits a derelict hulk of a structure.

Walk around Vegas, walk through the hotels. It's largely kibe. Tons and tons of high end shopping, but nobody in the stores. You wonder how they stay in business. You're afraid to walk in the door because the sales staff are waiting like vultures.

This not the kind of thing I want to see in my fair town.

 

[james t kirk]

I think I speak for the silent majority when I say this is a fucking no brainer. Build it. People who oppose it are the same pussies who fought Porter. Seriously, to all the detractors, let the market work. It knows better than you.

Horseshit.

You don't speak for anyone other than yourself.

Great cities don't build casinos right downtown.

The casinos need Toronto. Toronto doesn't need a casino.

 

[red]

Casinos are for cities that have no other options. You don't see them building a casino in Times Square, or Hyde Park, or by the Eiffel Tour do you. There's a reason for that. World class cities don't want casinos. They will suck the oxygen right out of dowtown Toronto.

The Developers are only interested in what Toronto has to offer them, not the other way round. Any jobs that come out of it will be low paying, and I severely doubt the bennefits being touted by the Developers or the Mayor.

I'd be far far far happier if Toronto managed to convince a major auto manufacturer to locate a plant here, or we lured a top notch high tech firm here, or expanded U of T, or developed the medical research industry etc. But a casino? It shows how stupid our mayor is (a fact well known) that all he and his dufus brother can come up with is a casino, or a big mall down on the waterfront, or an NFL team / stadium. They are so limited in their outlook.

Lastly, from an architectural / city scape point of view - it's an unmitigated disaster that will destroy the area around where they want to build it.

The good news is that I don't believe that there is enough political support for the damn thing to pass anyway.

to be fair- the casino wasn't mayor's idea- it was the premier of ontario and OLG's (paul godfrey) idea. they foisted this decision on the city- the mayor seems to be trying to get the best deal out of it for the city that he can.

 

[red]

Horseshit.

You don't speak for anyone other than yourself.

Great cities don't build casinos right downtown.

The casinos need Toronto. Toronto doesn't need a casino.

i agree that toronto doesn't need a casino, but i would also say that a casino would make little difference in the nature of the city.

BTW paris, london, sydney, venice have casinos. though the casinos are smaller in europe but thats in keeping with european style.

i don't care, but I don't think its the end of toronto. it won't make much difference

 

[EntertainmentMan2000]

Horseshit.

You don't speak for anyone other than yourself.

Great cities don't build casinos right downtown.

The casinos need Toronto. Toronto doesn't need a casino.

you sound like the guy who sits on a council/board and votes no for anything and everything.

 

[my2cents]

As we already have a Casino (woodbine) I don't see the numbers being put forward for a new mimic the numbers that woodbine produces. If the high numbers of revenue for the City is true then make that a binding part of the contract. Until concrete numbers that will have to be paid are spelled out in a contract, that is presented to the public, non of the dream numbers come close to the low numbers of the woodbine numbers. I just don't like the hype. All promises but no substance that says they have to pay X number of dollars. Like I said we already have a model of a Casino revenue here its Woodbine. I know Woodbine is not downtown but if a Casino was so great as being hyped at least the Woodbine revenue should be in the range of the numbers being hyped but its not.

 

[5hummer]

I can't see why anyone would be pro-casino?

You know eventually somebody/something is going to fuck it up or screw the city out of millions!

 

[Hurricane Hank]

MGM will be sending profits Stateside. Part of me secretly hopes that they build one downtown, just to see what a disaster it causes lol. Woodbine is the smart choice if you have to have one. The problem there is: the OLG (Godfrey) just finished pulling the rug out from under Woodbine by ending the SARS deal.

If you believe the numbers being tossed around, you are being foolish. Ask the OLG how many jobs they have done away with in the past 5 years. On top of that, Woodbine had to lay off 109 track employess, as the OLG bailed on their previous agreement with all racetracks on March 31.

 

[Keebler Elf]

If you believe the numbers being tossed around, you are being foolish.

Quoted for Truth.

There was an article in the papers the other day about the numbers being thrown around by city council as "proof" of how much money can be made. The article dug into the numbers and found them to be a farce. Council was quoting the province and saying we'll make X millions per year and conveniently overlooking the fact that council had put conditions on the casino limiting it to half the planned size but with no decrease in revenue! What a joke.

Sure there will be short term gains in terms of construction jobs (btw, the construction industry is so strongly behind this because major infrastructure projects are slowing and they need the next big thing to take over once the work for the Pan Am games is done) and the novelty of a new casino. I'm more concerned 10 years down the road when the novelty has worn off, the construction jobs are long gone, and the casino is sucking the money out of the people who can least afford it and sending the profits to the States. No thanks!

 

[my2cents]

Nothing to do with Anti-capitalism far from it. Investors look at numbers and their returns. When the potential for a return becomes too risky they expect a very high rate of return. They also expect some security from those wanting the investment. At the moment the numbers mean nothing as they are all hyped up numbers not based on a model we have now in our current Toronto casino. So if MGM or others were to commit property outside of Toronto as a security on returns and then commit in contract to a high rate of return with some real numbers then this could change public opinion. Claims of 100 million per year have been used but I don't see anyone saying that is a condition of a license that they have to pay this fee every year or a license is revoked. Again too much hype without exact numbers.

 

[james t kirk]

i agree that toronto doesn't need a casino, but i would also say that a casino would make little difference in the nature of the city.

BTW paris, london, sydney, venice have casinos. though the casinos are smaller in europe but thats in keeping with european style.

i don't care, but I don't think its the end of toronto. it won't make much difference

Venice is about 250,000 people though and if they have a casino, it's not what attracts people to Venice (I've been and I loved it.)

I'm all for them building a casino in Toronto - just build it at Woodbine where it is better suited. (But they won't do that because they want to use Toronto's downtown core, not the other way round - i.e. build in an outlying area in order to add to that area.)

 

[james t kirk]

Quoted for Truth.

There was an article in the papers the other day about the numbers being thrown around by city council as "proof" of how much money can be made. The article dug into the numbers and found them to be a farce. Council was quoting the province and saying we'll make X millions per year and conveniently overlooking the fact that council had put conditions on the casino limiting it to half the planned size but with no decrease in revenue! What a joke.

Sure there will be short term gains in terms of construction jobs (btw, the construction industry is so strongly behind this because major infrastructure projects are slowing and they need the next big thing to take over once the work for the Pan Am games is done) and the novelty of a new casino. I'm more concerned 10 years down the road when the novelty has worn off, the construction jobs are long gone, and the casino is sucking the money out of the people who can least afford it and sending the profits to the States. No thanks!

Exactly.

The only "good jobs" that would come out of building a casino would be in construction. Most casino workers are lower paid jobs (Sure, there are exceptions, but for the most part dealers and such aren't going to be making much more than 15 or 16 bucks an hour.)

Toronto could have the same bennefit to the construction industry regardless of whether or not they built the damn thing at Woodbine, or Downtown. But the casino guys want downtown because they need the bennefits of downtown.

 

[james t kirk]

Lastly, as soon as you read the name "Paul Godfrey" you know it is only going to end badly. That guy is a shyster through and through. He would sell his own grandmother for a nickel if he could.

 

[tightfit]

Whatever happened to the discussion of rehab'ing Ontario Place on its own? I remember growing up and this was one of a very few places that you could see free concerts if you had little money..geez how this city has changed.

 

[Tony2Tap]

I can't see why anyone would be pro-casino?

You know eventually somebody/something is going to fuck it up or screw the city out of millions!

You really can't see any reasons????

Toronto's problem is that if they don't take it (bend over and take it?), Mississauga or Markham will. The billions of dollars of gaming money will still leave Toronto, but nothing will come back in. OLG has them bent over a barrel.