Teacher Appreciation Week? You've got to be joking!

[Jade4u]

If teachers can have a whole week of expecting gifts and appreciation, why do parents not get a month? Oh, yeah a parent would not expect a gift or single a child out that was not able to give. After all it is the PARENT that would go the extra mile to be sure the child was having fun and not them and caring more about each of their childs mental well being and not singleing out any of their own children. Parents expect each of their children to be different.

I agree schools are looking for a lot more year after year. Book orders come in every week now, pizza day is every week. When I was in school it was hot dog day and it was once a month. A book fair is held at the school once a month with prizes for those who buy the most. They send home boxes of chocolates automatically and tell the children to keep them all till they are all sold or till the end of the month, leaving the parents responsible for them if anything happens to them, the box is valued at 80.00 and cannot be returned till the date that they ask a month later. Picture day is now twice a year once at the beginning of the year and again in March, graduation is now held in kindergarten, with requests to buy pictures then too again in grade 8 before entering high school and children are expected all to pose and parent to buy pictures again then too as well as high school graduation. Not to mention summer time barbecues held at the school to come in and see an open house and while there they get you to buy dinner. Donations requested for yard sales to earn money and to come out to purchase the items. forms sent home to donate for library upgrades. I have seen notices that this teacher will not be here later on as she is going to have her baby and the students would like to purchase a gift so please all send in two dollars to buy her a gift. Also for retiring principals etc.. etc.. Not to mention school trips that cost incredible amounts of money like camping trips fpr grade 8 students for a week of camping, meals included while there, part of the school curriculm they say and of course they accept monthly installments to ease payment for some parents, but we are still talking about hundreds of dollars here. How much are the schools stashing out of all these costs?

 

[CTSblues]

AMA ?
You are having a difficult time understanding this is an Ontario issue
The demand for doctors is a serious problem and the excess supply of potential teachers is well known
Supply & demand explains the delta, not politics like you are insinuating


Abolishing social programs ?
Some will need to be trimmed back for sure, but Canadians Will get awful twitchy if universal health care is threatened

My occupation?
Union recruiter ?
Labor adjudicator?
Maybe in the future

My occupation is my business and certainly not something I will discuss on a hooker chat board

I assumed you are a teacher or someone in your household is, if not , Oh well

This is an Ontario issue, a Canadian issue, an American issue, and perhaps even a world-wide issue.

Canada is US lite. The CMA and the OMA are simply marching in step with the big brother. I am not as provincial as you are, but yes, I do know it is an Ontario problem.

Canadians will have to learn that health care does not grow on trees. Isn’t that the very Communism that you despise? Our lives may be metaphysically given, our survival as far as I know, have never been guaranteed (to paraphrase Ayn Rand).

It is politics that creates a supply and demand problem, and it will be politics that solves it. Don’t you know “The shortage” is the only way the government can keep cost down? We need real leadership and what we get are toothpaste salesmen.

My occupation?
A rent-seeker?
A value transferer?
Maybe in the future.

Don’t ask, don’t tell.

 

[frankcastle]

CTSBluees is right this is all about political power.

Take a look and you'll see that teachers, nurses, postal workers and city workers typically have to fight harder than firefighters, cops and doctors.

The government picked the fight with the teachers because they think they can win.

If this was about fiscal responsibility we'd see much more hardlines being taken across the board. If they are so comfortable with legislating instead of negotiating then why stop there? Why didn't they do something similar with the police and doctors?

Thye put teachers in teh awkward position by giving them a bad offer and then claiming they don't care about the kids when they protest.

You don't hear doctors or police being viewed that way. Why because the government takes care of them better.

I also agree that in terms of fiscal responsiblity teacher's salary is a drop in the bucket especially since they were willing to take a pay freeze.

All that stuff about taking away gratuity and sick days..... you won't see the effects of those savings for decades. Why? Because teachers (I think....... I only heard this so if someone else wants to confirm or deny it by all means do so) with banked days will still be honoured, however no more days can be banked.

As stated earlier if eliminating the deficit is what this is really what it's about then do bigger things

like don't pay for a public and catholic school board as well as many other suggestions I've made which people really don't want to talk about.

Moving away from education..... hire a company and offer them a percentage of the more than 1 billion in unpaid taxes.... that doesn't include the other billion that was written off (understandably so as it's likely companies that went belly up).

 

[JohnLarue]

it puzzles me no end how intelligent people like you justify the rich getting richer simple because they are rich until they own it all

there is little freedom for workers begging for jobs from these elite

one should get from society the value one puts into it and making from money until one owns it all is nuts
people
this division of wealth is getting worse and cannot end in anything but disaster

It puzzles me to no end how fools such as yourself get so wrapped in the rhetoric of their cause they fail to see the forest for the trees
How does overpaying a teacher ($83K , top 5-10% of all wage earners) using taxes from the average taxpayer ($45K) correct the division of wealth?

Your union pals are creating a whole different layer of wealth for a group that bases their value on entitlement, will never stop asking for more, is unbelievable inefficient and neither employs people nor takes any economic risk
That cannot end in anything but disaster and a disaster which will occur long before the revolution you are hoping for

 

[JohnLarue]

This is an Ontario issue, a Canadian issue, an American issue, and perhaps even a world-wide issue.

Yes govt's everywhere are struggling with the bloated costs of the public sector

Canada is US lite. The CMA and the OMA are simply marching in step with the big brother. I am not as provincial as you are, but yes, I do know it is an Ontario problem.

You might want to research that. A doctor can make way more in the U.S.

Canadians will have to learn that health care does not grow on trees. Isn’t that the very Communism that you despise? Our lives may be metaphysically given, our survival as far as I know, have never been guaranteed (to paraphrase Ayn Rand).

User fees will increase, no question
I personally do not think universal health care is sustainable over the long run, however this is a very touchy subject for the average Canadian

It is politics that creates a supply and demand problem, and it will be politics that solves it. Don’t you know “The shortage” is the only way the government can keep cost down? We need real leadership and what we get are toothpaste salesmen.

This where you get side tracked
Please explain how the govt has created a shortage of doctors?
Please explain how a shortage keeps cost down?
A shortage tends to drive costs up

It is this shortage and the expect increase in demand for health car which makes the need to control education cost so important

I will lay it out for you one more time
1. the Ont govt can not continue to run deficits and keep accumulating debt
2. When interest rates rise the cost of servicing this growing debt will compound the problem to a point where the govt can not borrow any more
3. At the same time an aging population will require more health care services

The only way to avert disaster is to control costs

Assume the govt cuts compensation across the board by 10%

Doctors will explore options to take their services south of the boarder, leaving Ont with fewer doctors just when the demand is accelerating
There is not a pool of replacement doctors waiting in the wings
No way in hell the public will accept this situation

Teachers will, whine, scream , grab headlines and probably strike
Once a school year is in jeopardy the govt will need to act, however they can not borrow any more ( see point #2), so they will need to replace these teachers
There is a long line up of people who have applied to be teachers and would be pleased to make $75K ($83K - 10%)
The public will accept this situation


This all about supply & demand and how society values different occupations
The real problem is the unions have bastardized the process and are extorting more value from the public purse than their members are delivering

 

[frankcastle]

The shortage of doctors is a result of better opportunities abroad (financially).

Not suggesting the government try to match US earning potentials but that is one of the ways the Gov is producing a shortage.

The other two factors are no incentives for doctors to work rural areas or work longer hours.

Doctors today are working less hours per week than their older counterparts and less likely to open practices in smaller more remote places.

 

[frankcastle]

Yes govt's everywhere are struggling with the bloated costs of the public sector


You might want to research that. A doctor can make way more in the U.S.


User fees will increase, no question
I personally do not think universal health care is sustainable over the long run, however this is a very touchy subject for the average Canadian


This where you get side tracked
Please explain how the govt has created a shortage of doctors?
Please explain how a shortage keeps cost down?
A shortage tends to drive costs up

It is this shortage and the expect increase in demand for health car which makes the need to control education cost so important

I will lay it out for you one more time
1. the Ont govt can not continue to run deficits and keep accumulating debt
2. When interest rates rise the cost of servicing this growing debt will compound the problem to a point where the govt can not borrow any more
3. At the same time an aging population will require more health care services

The only way to avert disaster is to control costs

Assume the govt cuts compensation across the board by 10%

Doctors will explore options to take their services south of the boarder, leaving Ont with fewer doctors just when the demand is accelerating
There is not a pool of replacement doctors waiting in the wings
No way in hell the public will accept this situation

Teachers will, whine, scream , grab headlines and probably strike
Once a school year is in jeopardy the govt will need to act, however they can not borrow any more ( see point #2), so they will need to replace these teachers
There is a long line up of people who have applied to be teachers and would be pleased to make $75K ($83K - 10%)
The public will accept this situation


This all about supply & demand and how society values different occupations
The real problem is the unions have bastardized the process and are extorting more value from the public purse than their members are delivering

Only so many doctors can leave you can't assume an unlimited numer of jobs for them in the US.

Pay is already better in the US so the ones that want money have probably already left.

And as for the people lined up don't forget that 75K is after teaching a certain number of years.

Much like the line of doctors when the salary goes down you will loose people as well.

But don't forget you are also basically saying fuck you to people who got into the profession 10 or more years ago when max salary was 60K. And replacing them with younger people who may be getting into the job for the near 100K salary.

 

[frankcastle]

John since you won't tell us your job.

We'll have to assume that you are not in a recession proof job.

Would a 10% cut in your salary be helpful for the business? If so would you voluntarily take that 10% cut for the betterment of the company?

 

[KBear]

Only so many doctors can leave you can't assume an unlimited numer of jobs for them in the US.

The US could absorb all the Ontario doctors and not really notice it. Ontario pop 12M, US pop 310M. Doctors also leave the system to do other work locally like cosmetic surgery. Doctors often have real overhead like staff and office space, and net on average about 250K. They also have to take serious university courses with a high attrition rates, work long hours, and don’t think they have the freedom 55 pensions or benefits that teachers enjoy.

 

[KBear]

If so would you voluntarily take that 10% cut for the betterment of the company?

Companies will cut pay sometimes, the employee then has to decide if he wants to stay, or move on to better opportunities.

 

[red]

teachers bad, four legs good

 

[FAST]

Atitude

Companies will cut pay sometimes, the employee then has to decide if he wants to stay, or move on to better opportunities.

THIS is the way real life is OUTSIDE of civil servants in unions.
Even the CAW has to face this.
Companies will cut wages, reduce HRs, increase HRs without increasing pay, cut back benefits etc, etc.

But for SOME reason, unionised civil servants feel they should be imune to economics.
Sure you can say,...we didn't cause the problem,...SO WHAT,...why are you special.

This why people currently have a problem with teachers, and civil servants in general.
To be clear, this has nothing to do with teachers as individuals,...but with a collective attitude !!!

FAST

 

[Curious36]

Read a good article recently as it concerned interest rates being so low. Basically it states that with interest rates being at an all-time low there has been a shift away from saving and towards borrowing, due to the relatively cheap cost of borrowing. The government is the most greedy of the borrowers and thus running big deficits adding to the overall debt. Nobody seems to care or rationalize that once the interest rates begin to increase again the costs associated with servicing these greater debts will take even a bigger chunk out of our municipal, provincial, federal budgets. This leaves less money to fund gov't programs that most Canadians take for granted. This is also coming at a time when the strain on healthcare is about to begin, not to mention gov't pensions, etc etc. John is the most correct of those in this thread. We must limit spending to at least balance budget. Currently 55 cents out of every dollar collected provincially goes to public servants/teachers compensation/benefits/retirement. Personally I dont care what Teachers make BUT if the government cannot currently afford (which they cant if they are running multi-billion dollar annual deficits) then we need to cut back. Increasing taxes (or the new Liberal spin, creating new revenue tools) is not prudent in this financial climate that everyone, minus civil servants, is exposed to. The ONLY option is to cut back and look for efficiences in the system. My dime....

 

[JohnLarue]

Companies will cut pay sometimes, the employee then has to decide if he wants to stay, or move on to better opportunities.

Private sector employees are often not given that choice
Most companies will slash employment levels if they are losing $ and will not accept loses for more than a quarter or two

However if given a choice between a 10% pay cut or no job at all, most would protect their income to the extent they can
That should have been obvious, even to Frank

 

[frankcastle]

The US could absorb all the Ontario doctors and not really notice it. Ontario pop 12M, US pop 310M. Doctors also leave the system to do other work locally like cosmetic surgery. Doctors often have real overhead like staff and office space, and net on average about 250K. They also have to take serious university courses with a high attrition rates, work long hours, and don’t think they have the freedom 55 pensions or benefits that teachers enjoy.

You forget that a large amount of the US doesn't have health care and if a doctor wants to make the big US bucks they have to operate under an insured situation. So it's not just about population. Furthermore, if the US could absord the doctors of Ontario why are the doctors choosing to work here for less money? I'd argue that it's a green card issue and the US limits the number of Canadian doctors that come over because they know how many they need.

And why talk about the pension plan you do know that teachers have money deducted out of their salaries to cover all the benefits. From what I've read sure the government helps with teh pension side (to what degree I don't know). But my point is people talk about the real worth of a teacher's salary but that inflated number assumes that they are not paying for the benefits. Their benefits are good and in part due to the fact that they are buying bulk. You and I can't get the same kind of health insurance because we are not 150000 customers.

As for what you've said about doctors not sure why you are pointng out all the other stuff as all I was saying was that there is a shortage of doctors in ontario but the reasons ar enot what you would expect (i.e. people not willing to practice in the sticks, people not willing to work the same number of hours). It's a wonderful profession no doubt and difficult to get and is it worth paying? Yes.

But not sure why you'd compare their net salary to a teacher's gross salary.... seems a bit unfair. But that's neither here nor there as I wasn't intereted in discussing those points anyways.

 

[frankcastle]

Private sector employees are often not given that choice
Most companies will slash employment levels if they are losing $ and will not accept loses for more than a quarter or two

However if given a choice between a 10% pay cut or no job at all, most would protect their income to the extent they can
That should have been obvious, even to Frank

Right and they offered to take a pay freeze. The 10% is just some arbitrary number you came up with and a half assed attempt to fix a huge deficit by pinching pennies. Obviously any cuts would help the deficit but my point has always been there a bigger ways to do it.

You guys are dodging my point which is that if you were given a 10% pay cut you wouldn't just sit quietly and do nothing.

 

[frankcastle]

Tried to find how much the government contributes to shortfall but all I could find is that the pension plany has 117 billion in assets and expects a 9 billion shortfall.

117 billion is mindblowing! I had no idea. Like them or not that is a huge contribution to the province in terms of the economy.

 

[CTSblues]

You might want to research that. A doctor can make way more in the U.S.

Did you read the Ontario government webpage I posted earlier? Ontario family doctors make more than their American counterparts by almost 150 thousand a year. It is the specialists that do better in the states.

User fees will increase, no question
I personally do not think universal health care is sustainable over the long run, however this is a very touchy subject for the average Canadian

Now you are thinking. The average Canadian is the problem. I guess we don't live in Lake Woebegone.

This where you get side tracked
Please explain how the govt has created a shortage of doctors?
Please explain how a shortage keeps cost down?
A shortage tends to drive costs up

It is this shortage and the expect increase in demand for health car which makes the need to control education cost so important

“The shortage” is a euphemism for waiting list.

http://www.cbc.ca/whitecoat/blog/2012/09/27/unemployed-doctors/

These specialists can all be absorbed if the government build enough medical facilities. The government does not because the government can not afford unlimited access. Canada can not be a country with nothing else but a health care system.

Doctors will explore options to take their services south of the boarder, leaving Ont with fewer doctors just when the demand is accelerating
There is not a pool of replacement doctors waiting in the wings
No way in hell the public will accept this situation

Teachers will, whine, scream , grab headlines and probably strike
Once a school year is in jeopardy the govt will need to act, however they can not borrow any more ( see point #2), so they will need to replace these teachers
There is a long line up of people who have applied to be teachers and would be pleased to make $75K ($83K - 10%)
The public will accept this situation

The reality of practicing medicine in the US is not what you think.

http://www.uoworks.com/pdfs/feats/Unemployed.pdf

Some specialties have to pay malpractice insurance costing more than 90 thousand a year. Then there is HMO, PPOs, Medicare, and insurance companies to deal with. Private school for the children is another consideration. Another one is one’s distance from the love ones...

There is a huge pool of foreign trained doctors right here in Ontario, and many unemployed doctors in Europe who would love to come if given the chance to practice. I repeat: it is not a shortage of doctors, but a shortage of fund to pay them.

You are still looking at what the public will and will not take? Aren't they the source of our problem in the first place? You know our needs are quite limited, but our wants are limitless. The public wants everything for free, or have somebody else pays for it. Your solution is not a solution. Even if public schools do not exist the problem of overspending is still going to be there. You are only re-arranging the chairs on a sinking ship.

This all about supply & demand and how society values different occupations
The real problem is the unions have bastardized the process and are extorting more value from the public purse than their members are delivering

I do agree with you how society value different occupations differently. That is precisely why I advise the young to join the most powerful occupational group they can.

I disagree with your second premise. If the public did not ask for social services, there would not be any public union. I looked in the mirror, and our enemy is us.

 

[FAST]

One person

You guys are dodging my point which is that if you were given a 10% pay cut you wouldn't just sit quietly and do nothing.

The majority of working people have two options in this scenario,...1. take your lumps or, 2. quit.

I once worked for a Canadian company that was bought out by a much larger American company.

The 1st thing they did was produce a small raise across the board, ...and cut benefits,...the Americans looked at the benefits as socialism.
Guess what happened, people quit, including one guy who worked for me.

THAT is what happens in the work place outside of unions,...people fend for themselves,...of course,...if you don't have any marketable skills....

FAST

 

[JohnLarue]

Did you read the Ontario government webpage I posted earlier? Ontario family doctors make more than their American counterparts by almost 150 thousand a year. It is the specialists that do better in the states.

No I did not read that web page
I know both doctors and nurses can make more in the states, despite what you claim

Now you are thinking. The average Canadian is the problem. I guess we don't live in Lake Woebegone.

Lets see here, we are debating overpaying teachers with the average Canadians tax dollars and you determine the average Canadian and their expectation for universal healthcare is the problem?

“The shortage” is a euphemism for waiting list.

http://www.cbc.ca/whitecoat/blog/2012/09/27/unemployed-doctors/

These specialists can all be absorbed if the government build enough medical facilities. The government does not because the government can not afford unlimited access. Canada can not be a country with nothing else but a health care system.

Those medical facilities cost big $ and the equipment is unbelievably expensive
All the more reason to control education costs

The reality of practicing medicine in the US is not what you think.

http://www.uoworks.com/pdfs/feats/Unemployed.pdf

Some specialties have to pay malpractice insurance costing more than 90 thousand a year. Then there is HMO, PPOs, Medicare, and insurance companies to deal with. Private school for the children is another consideration. Another one is one’s distance from the love ones...

There is a huge pool of foreign trained doctors right here in Ontario, and many unemployed doctors in Europe who would love to come if given the chance to practice. I repeat: it is not a shortage of doctors, but a shortage of fund to pay them.

Again all the more reason to control education costs
None of the potential solutions you have suggested here can be practically implemented because of the debt problem

You are still looking at what the public will and will not take? Aren't they the source of our problem in the first place? You know our needs are quite limited, but our wants are limitless. The public wants everything for free, or have somebody else pays for it. Your solution is not a solution. Even if public schools do not exist the problem of overspending is still going to be there. You are only re-arranging the chairs on a sinking ship.

My solution?
Lets see here, I advocate not throwing money away today by over compensating teachers, knowing we will need that $ for health care

Your solution?
It appears you advocate telling the public, they will just have to start paying the full costs for health care?
and the teachers?. I must assume you advocate they continue to be over compensated
1. That is no solution
2. It will never work, universal health care is sacred to most Canadians and certainly more valued than ensuring teachers are paid in the top 5 -10% of all Canadians
3. Do you honestly think the people of Ont will accept overpaying teachers and bend over paying for a rectal exam that was free the year before?

If the public did not ask for social services, there would not be any public union. I looked in the mirror, and our enemy is us.

Sounds nice, however as useful as tits on a bull, when we know what will happen to debt levels and expenses soon and a special interest group insists on lining their pockets from the public purse